Old Firm Submissions To The Justice Commitee.

[CottonRunt 980]

Rangers Submission - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s4/committees/justice/inquiries/OBFTCBill/OB59.pdf

Celtics Submission - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s4/committees/justice/inquiries/OBFTCBill/OB62.pdf

Quite an interesting read, both clubs take on the upcoming sectarian legislation.

Have only read the Rangers one, think i would just get angry if i read the one from Celtic.

Thoughts?

p.s Didn't know if the Bears den was the best place for this, feel free to move if you think its more appropriate in general sports or debating chamber.

[ScottBF2 3,540]

So Celtic want it to be illegal to have a dislike towards Catholicism in any context, both within and outwith football... what a deluded wee club they are. Starting off their submission with an attempt to make themselves appear holier than thou.

Cretinous bastards who hide behind Catholicism and the Irish potato famine and use it as a weapon in modern day society. Scum of the earth.

[CottonRunt 980]

Bits which i enjoyed:

It is important, however, to reiterate that football clubs are not the cause, nor are they the sole solution, to addressing offensive and threatening behaviour of individuals. Nor can they be responsible for curing the ills of society.

They often arise in communities many hours after the end of the match and alcohol is the single biggest factor in the behaviour of the individuals involved. For this reason, Rangers Football Club fully supports the introduction of minimum pricing for alcohol as we believe this will have a positive effect within Scottish society as a whole.

The inconsistencies in the enforcement of existing legislation has a major effect on the behaviour of fans. Greater and more consistent enforcement of existing legislation , we believe, will have as much if not more impact than the introduction of new legislation in this area, though we fully understand and support the Scottish Government‟s desire to eradicate offensive behaviour.

Beat of a quote, if celtic continue to go unpunished for their IRA fests, then i can see the old (IMO unwanted) songs creeping back in.

This lack of clarity regarding arrestable offences still exists under the proposed legislation and this needs to be addressed sooner rather than later in order for police across the country to have a clear understanding of what constitutes an offence and to stop the police, the procurator fiscal and the court system being overwhelmed.

Another cracker, how do we know whats sectarian or not when the police wont let us know? After hearing some of the stories about folk getting lifted for singing GSTQ or RB, i would love to hear Strathclyde police's view about weather these songs are sectarian or not!

For Rangers, and I believe other clubs, there are more problems with fans who attend „away‟ games. Fans who attend away games often sense the police priority is to ensure visiting fans are dealt with on a „get them in, get them out‟ basis and the chances of being arrested are less than at a home match. If fans believe they can „get away with‟ certain behaviour at certain stadiums, they will engage in that behaviour.

Dont agree with this at all, i think our away fans are magnificent!

[CottonRunt 980]

It is important to state that the perception that there are only problems at Old Firm matches, or that it is only Rangers fans who sing offensive songs, is simply untrue and it is crucial that the new Football Policing Unit applies a fair and even-handed approach when it comes to addressing offensive behaviour.

Spot on again, maybe some Aberdeen fans should be taken to task on their lovely songs regarding the Ibrox disaster, and Iain Durrant. Not just Aberdeen fans, just one example.

We are concerned that the new Football Policing Unit has, so far, had a disproportionate focus on Rangers supporters and indeed, the unit has attended 100% of our matches this season, often filming fans, including children, who are not engaging in any offensive behaviours. We are unaware of any other club that the unit has so far attended 100% of their matches.

Didn't know this, and defo something worthy of investigation, maybe somewhere like VB could find out why we seem to have been singled out in this manner.

With songs glorifying the death of Rangers fans in the Ibrox disaster and pro-IRA songs among those being regularly sung by other clubs, we would ask for assurance that any new legislation was enforced consistently and even-handedly to tackle ALL offensive behaviour and that the legislation makes clear whether or not songs or chants in support of terrorist organisations will be an offense under the new legislation.

Best bit of the whole piece for me, naming and shaming the scum across the city. Will be interesting to hear if this part is mentioned again.

I could go on and on, and there is probably not much need to read the article after me doing this!

Good stuff from David Martin though, quite impressed with this statement!

[CottonRunt 980]

So Celtic want it to be illegal to have a dislike towards Catholicism in any context, both within and outwith football... what a deluded wee club they are. Starting off their submission with an attempt to make themselves appear holier than thou.

Cretinous bastards who hide behind Catholicism and the Irish potato famine and use it as a weapon in modern day society. Scum of the earth.

To be honest i think they are making a rod for their own back by associating so closely with Catholicism.

Weather folk like it or not, i think Rangers are trying to take a step back from being a "protestant club".

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

I read both statements. Ours is rational, balanced and positive, whilst making certain crucial key points we'd all like to see emphasised.

Their statement starts with their recent revisionist lie of "all-inclusive from the start" (I believe it was Brian Wilson MP who started this PR lie with his centenary book)and does make several other such claims, but actually makes some good points regarding context and especially extraterritorial issues of enforcement.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

To be honest i think they are making a rod for their own back by associating so closely with Catholicism.

Weather folk like it or not, i think Rangers are trying to take a step back from being a "protestant club".

Yes, it does seem rather chilly all of a sudden.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

So Celtic want it to be illegal to have a dislike towards Catholicism in any context, both within and outwith football... what a deluded wee club they are. Starting off their submission with an attempt to make themselves appear holier than thou.

Cretinous bastards who hide behind Catholicism and the Irish potato famine and use it as a weapon in modern day society. Scum of the earth.

I didn't initially consider that aspect, but I take your point.

I thought they were trying to suggest that football supporters should be given more leeway, since not being at a football match but indulging in the same behaviour could gain a lighter, if any, penalty.

[The Hammer 11 2,712]

Very impressed with our submission.

yep very positive and constructive admits there are issues but they are simply not rangers issues miles ahead compared to the old regime

[CottonRunt 980]

Yes, it does seem rather chilly all of a sudden.

Just made a post about how im not a very good writer as well!

All you spelling Nazi's can fuck off anyway, im about to graduate with a Bsc Hons, so i cant be that thick!

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

yep very positive and constructive admits there are issues but they are simply not rangers issues miles ahead compared to the old regime

To be honest, I think the old regime would have said pretty much the same. I'm heartened and relieved that we weren't naive or uninformed on this crucial non-issue (oxymoron intended), given it's a new regime. That said, it could have been from the old regimes database and strategy, with some unknown administrator who survived the switch. Then again, Bain's later statements were pretty damned close to this.

[Adoniram 1,919]

Put this to every Celtic minded journalist and board member you ever come across.

Founded on the 6th of November 1887 at a meeting held in an adjacent building to St.Mary's RC Chapel in Abercromby Street. The following circular was issued in January, 1888, asking for financial assistance, which came along, but not in the amount that was desired. A large number of subscriptions were later acknowledged, among these being one from Mr.R.F.Barr of the firm now known as A.G.Barr & Co., Ltd., the well known aerated water manufacturers.

CELTIC FOOTBALL AND ATHLETIC CLUB

Celtic Park, Parkhead

(Corner of Dalmarnock and Janefield Street)

Patrons

His Grace the Archbishop of Glasgow and the Clergy of St.Mary's, Sacred Heart, and St.Michael's Missions, and the principal Catholic laymen of the Eat End.

The above club was formed in November, 1887, by a number of Catholics of the East End of the City.

The main object of the Club is to supply the East End conferences of the St.Vincent De Paul Society with funds for the maintenance of the "Dinner Tables" of our needy children in the Missions of St.Mary's, Sacred Heart, and St.Michael's. Many cases of sheer poverty are left unaided through the lack of means. It is therefore with this principal object that we have set afloat the "Celtic', and we invite you as one of our ever-ready friends to assist in putting our new Park in proper working order for the coming football season.

We have already several of the leading Catholic football players of the West of Scotland on our membership list. They have most thoughtfully offered to assist in the good work.

We are fully aware that the "elite" of football players belong to this City and suburbs, and we know that from there we can select a team which will be able to do credit to the Catholics of the West of Scotland as the Hibernians have been doing in the East.

Again there is also the desire to have a large recreation ground where our Catholic young men will be able to enjoy the various sports which will build them up physically, and we feel sure we will have many supporters with us in this laudable object.

Any subscriptions may be handed to any of the Clergy of the three Missions or to the President, Mr.John Glass, 60 Marlborough Street , Glasgow, Dr. John Conway, 14 Abercromby Street, Glasgow, or to J.O'Hara, 77 East Rose Street, Glasgow, or to any any member of the the Committee, and same will be gratefully acknowledged in course.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Just made a post about how im not a very good writer as well!

All you spelling Nazi's can fuck off anyway, im about to graduate with a Bsc Hons, so i cant be that thick!

BSc Hons?

I'm genuinely impressed.

Don't be so touchy.

P.S. What in? (Avoids the temptation of another sarcastic remark.)

[CottonRunt 980]

BSc Hons?

I'm genuinely impressed.

Don't be so touchy.

P.S. What in? (Avoids the temptation of another sarcastic remark.)

Its only from Paisley, so dont be too impressed!

I do applied bioscience with psychology.

[WVB 2,560]

Just made a post about how im not a very good writer as well!

All you spelling Nazi's can fuck off anyway, im about to graduate with a Bsc Hons, so i cant be that thick!

Having met some of the halfwits who graduated with my eldest daughter a couple of years back, I wouldn't be so sure!

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Put this to every Celtic minded journalist and board member you ever come across.

Founded on the 6th of November 1887 at a meeting held in an adjacent building to St.Mary's RC Chapel in Abercromby Street. The following circular was issued in January, 1888, asking for financial assistance, which came along, but not in the amount that was desired. A large number of subscriptions were later acknowledged, among these being one from Mr.R.F.Barr of the firm now known as A.G.Barr & Co., Ltd., the well known aerated water manufacturers.

CELTIC FOOTBALL AND ATHLETIC CLUB

Celtic Park, Parkhead

(Corner of Dalmarnock and Janefield Street)

Patrons

His Grace the Archbishop of Glasgow and the Clergy of St.Mary's, Sacred Heart, and St.Michael's Missions, and the principal Catholic laymen of the Eat End.

The above club was formed in November, 1887, by a number of Catholics of the East End of the City.

The main object of the Club is to supply the East End conferences of the St.Vincent De Paul Society with funds for the maintenance of the "Dinner Tables" of our needy children in the Missions of St.Mary's, Sacred Heart, and St.Michael's. Many cases of sheer poverty are left unaided through the lack of means. It is therefore with this principal object that we have set afloat the "Celtic', and we invite you as one of our ever-ready friends to assist in putting our new Park in proper working order for the coming football season.

We have already several of the leading Catholic football players of the West of Scotland on our membership list. They have most thoughtfully offered to assist in the good work.

We are fully aware that the "elite" of football players belong to this City and suburbs, and we know that from there we can select a team which will be able to do credit to the Catholics of the West of Scotland as the Hibernians have been doing in the East.

Again there is also the desire to have a large recreation ground where our Catholic young men will be able to enjoy the various sports which will build them up physically, and we feel sure we will have many supporters with us in this laudable object.

Any subscriptions may be handed to any of the Clergy of the three Missions or to the President, Mr.John Glass, 60 Marlborough Street , Glasgow, Dr. John Conway, 14 Abercromby Street, Glasgow, or to J.O'Hara, 77 East Rose Street, Glasgow, or to any any member of the the Committee, and same will be gratefully acknowledged in course.

Excellent find.

I'd read this and Botherer Walfrid's words when he said 'Twas the most dangersome time for the young fellos, jest afther they had left school, an' begun t' mix up wid Protestand boys in the places where they wor workin'.

However, I could never find this particular document when necessary for verification of their exclusively Catholic inception.

I'm genuinely grateful for you posting this.

Thank you.

[bluenose_72 198]

Great response from us

As much as our new regime has been criticised with regards to transfers etc... they are obviously making great strides elsewhere.

[CottonRunt 980]

Having met some of the halfwits who graduated with my eldest daughter a couple of years back, I wouldn't be so sure!

You can always rely on WVB to tell you the truth!

Did she do social science by any chance? I know a few social science students from doing psychology, and some of them are thick as two short planks!

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Its only from Paisley, so dont be too impressed!

I do applied bioscience with psychology.

I did Psychology in my first two years. I liked the social, developmental and physiology of it, but the cognitive and statistical elements were a bit dry, so I opted for Philosophy.

Good on you. The brain's the best tool you'll ever have.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

You can always rely on WVB to tell you the truth!

Did she do social science by any chance? I know a few social science students from doing psychology, and some of them are thick as two short planks!

Indeed they are. I was in the Faculty of Social Sciences, but I like to consider myself an exception to that generalisation.

[caseyjones 3,009]

This bill will be the death knell for Scottish football supporters. Nevermind it being introduced to put an end to sectarian singing, it will also be designed to put an end to 'offensive' singing, especially if Rangers have their way. As of now the authorities can't even tell us what is sectarian, so who will determine what is regarded as offensive?

A politically correct crock of shit brought to bear by the 'blame game' internet warriors, a media which relies on these tensions for a high percentage of their stories and by under pressure politicians who are only to keen to appease the chattering classes in the hope of picking up a vote or two.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

This bill will be the death knell for Scottish football supporters. Nevermind it being introduced to put an end to sectarian singing, it will also be designed to put an end to 'offensive' singing, especially if Rangers have their way. As of now the authorities can't even tell us what is sectarian, so who will determine what is regarded as offensive?

A politically correct crock of shit brought to bear by the 'blame game' internet warriors, a media which relies on these tensions for a high percentage of their stories and by under pressure politicians who are only to keen to appease the chattering classes in the hope of picking up a vote or two.

A very fair summation, but the game has started and we took an early shoeing, so we have to play this game and play it in our own interests.

Balanced, universally applicable, if excessive, legislation and enforcement are now the goals, since the alternative is unbalanced, arbitrary and excessive and inevitably unfair on us.

The blame game has started and we can't roll the clock back, since the juggernaut has gained momentum and can't be easily stopped. (Talk about mixing metaphors.) When everyone's affected and outraged, the media will create a new juggernaut against excessive legislation. It's what they do- exaggerate a problem, demand a solution, which is inevitably rushed, simplistic and counter-productive, await the backlash and then champion that as their new cause. It's a self-perpetuating and highly profitable cycle of creating hysteria over non-issues and the yo-yoing public witch hunt. It's horribly cynical, yet so cunningly efficient that you can almost admire it for its ruthlessness.

[caseyjones 3,009]

A very fair summation, but the game has started and we took an early shoeing, so we have to play this game and play it in our own interests.

Balanced, universally applicable, if excessive, legislation and enforcement are now the goals, since the alternative is unbalanced, arbitrary and excessive and inevitably unfair on us.

The blame game has started and we can't roll the clock back, since the juggernaut has gained momentum and can't be easily stopped. (Talk about mixing metaphors.) When everyone's affected and outraged, the media will create a new juggernaut against excessive legislation. It's what they do- exaggerate a problem, demand a solution, which is inevitably rushed, simplistic and counter-productive, await the backlash and then champion that as their new cause. It's a self-perpetuating and highly profitable cycle of creating hysteria over non-issues and the yo-yoing public witch hunt. It's horribly cynical, yet so cunningly efficient that you can almost admire it for its ruthlessness.

This 'game' you talk about has been orchestrated by a couple of hundred or so activists on either side. Apart from the UEFA punishment when exactly did we get a shoeing?

How many documented cases are there of arrests/charges at the football for sectarian singing and chanting using existing legislation?

Are the percentage figures for arrests involving sectarianism at Ibrox and Parkhead showing the religious bias claimed by BOTH sides?

This 'game' used to get sorted out on the terraces and the streets now it is conducted via e-mail. It's fucking pathetic.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

This 'game' you talk about has been orchestrated by a couple of hundred or so activists on either side. Apart from the UEFA punishment when exactly did we get a shoeing?

How many documented cases are there of arrests/charges at the football for sectarian singing and chanting using existing legislation?

Are the percentage figures for arrests involving sectarianism at Ibrox and Parkhead showing the religious bias claimed by BOTH sides?

This 'game' used to get sorted out on the terraces and the streets now it is conducted via e-mail. It's fucking pathetic.

It may well be pathetic and many of your points are valid, but arguably UEFA's punishment assisted us going out to Malmo with no away support to back us, so given the option between playing the game and fighting back or letting our enemies have carté blanche to harm us by mudslinging with impunity, I'm not gonna choose the nonchalant, superior indifference with my club's welfare at risk.

P.S. I'm convinced you've massively underestimated the numbers, especially on their side, regarding activists.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

I think we should make an article of the document outlining Celtic's exclusively Catholic beginnings, since they spin the lies on that one.

Also, it would be great to get this on Wikipedia to rectify the PR there.