reddrock 107 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I have read it over and over , and without having to rewrite parts of it in here , it makes interesting reading , its all about intentions to provide funds through investment and if this investment is not secured or forthcoming any money spent in the transfer market ( taking into account funds brought in) will be added to the debt Currently held by The Rangers FC Group( Mr Whytes company) The debt currently held by The Rangers FC Group includes the Lloyds money , the Stadium upgraded money and the net spend on transfers.Further to this if this Intended procurement of investment does not come to fruition , The Rangers FC Group have said in the afore mentioned Shareholders circular that the HMRC issues will be met and again that debt will be passed on to The Rangers FC Group , which means all the clubs debt will fall under The Rangers FC Group .(Mr Whtyes Company ) This would make him the Biggest single creditor should , and stress very tongue in cheek should administration come ( think on ).Now in the same circular it is stated , that this debt will be held until either waived ( I cant see that happening) or converted to equity , well again I have to question the equity proposal . taking in to account the current situation what would the shares of our club become worth , if the proposed figures become factual . and I said become factual not that they are.IMO , the promised money after paying lloyds and paying a Pound for the club were never there , and the current alleged statements coming out of Ibrox saying all the problems come from the previous administration , I believe may have somr substance , but in the same breath .The Rangers FC Group ( as they are now called ) due to stock market regulation must have known what they were coming into .Along with what liability they were taking ownership of.Shoot me down I dont care , I care only for getting to the truth of what is going on at our club.What I have stated in the main is in the share holders circular.Want a copy , just ask. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulRFC1 115 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I have read it over and over , and without having to rewrite parts of it in here , it makes interesting reading , its all about intentions to provide funds through investment and if this investment is not secured or forthcoming any money spent in the transfer market ( taking into account funds brought in) will be added to the debt Currently held by The Rangers FC Group( Mr Whytes company) The debt currently held by The Rangers FC Group includes the Lloyds money , the Stadium upgraded money and the net spend on transfers.Further to this if this Intended procurement of investment does not come to fruition , The Rangers FC Group have said in the afore mentioned Shareholders circular that the HMRC issues will be met and again that debt will be passed on to The Rangers FC Group , which means all the clubs debt will fall under The Rangers FC Group .(Mr Whtyes Company ) This would make him the Biggest single creditor should , and stress very tongue in cheek should administration come ( think on ).Now in the same circular it is stated , that this debt will be held until either waived ( I cant see that happening) or converted to equity , well again I have to question the equity proposal . taking in to account the current situation what would the shares of our club become worth , if the proposed figures become factual . and I said become factual not that they are.IMO , the promised money after paying lloyds and paying a Pound for the club were never there , and the current alleged statements coming out of Ibrox saying all the problems come from the previous administration , I believe may have somr substance , but in the same breath .The Rangers FC Group ( as they are now called ) due to stock market regulation must have known what they were coming into .Along with what liability they were taking ownership of.Shoot me down I dont care , I care only for getting to the truth of what is going on at our club.What I have stated in the main is in the share holders circular.Want a copy , just ask.Basically.Is it good or bad news?What happens if the debt gets waived or converted to equity?Is it good or bad that all the debt has went to Whytes company?It would be good if you could exlain this a little simpler as I have no clue about all this stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddrock 107 Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 Basically.Is it good or bad news?What happens if the debt gets waived or converted to equity?Is it good or bad that all the debt has went to Whytes company?It would be good if you could exlain this a little simpler as I have no clue about all this stuff.If you want a copy of the document , I will send one , just let me have an e mail Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterheadBear 1 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 If you want a copy of the document , I will send one , just let me have an e mailIt's available online http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles/4d/76/0,,5~161357,00.pdfUnless you mean another document, then apologies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBF2 3,540 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Basically.Is it good or bad news?What happens if the debt gets waived or converted to equity?Is it good or bad that all the debt has went to Whytes company?It would be good if you could exlain this a little simpler as I have no clue about all this stuff.I don't know if I'm getting this completely, but I think should administration come, we would owe next to nothing to anyone but Mr Whyte - who of course can put any money recouped straight back into the club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I don't know if I'm getting this completely, but I think should administration come, we would owe next to nothing to anyone but Mr Whyte - who of course can put any money recouped straight back into the club.Thats how im reading all this mate. Though dont know if im reading it wrong Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBF2 3,540 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Thats how im reading all this mate. Though dont know if im reading it wrong Well we can't both be idiots can we Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebooler 4,509 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Well we can't both be idiots can we A rare easy question on RM............................. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddrock 107 Posted September 14, 2011 Author Share Posted September 14, 2011 A rare easy question on RM.............................I also agree , the question is was this the intention all along , and would the authorities heavily investigate going into administration if indeed this was the outcome , In honesty i just wish that at the end of the day all this speculation was done and dusted , and for me it is going to take something more concrete from the board to assure me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebooler 4,509 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I also agree , the question is was this the intention all along , and would the authorities heavily investigate going into administration if indeed this was the outcome , In honesty i just wish that at the end of the day all this speculation was done and dusted , and for me it is going to take something more concrete from the board to assure me.I agree mate, but the easy question I was referring to was the one I quoted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunslinger 270 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I don't know if I'm getting this completely, but I think should administration come, we would owe next to nothing to anyone but Mr Whyte - who of course can put any money recouped straight back into the club.well mr whyte and the tax man you have to imagine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 well mr whyte and the tax man you have to imagine.As it stands, CW is the preferred creditor but I believe HMRC are currently exploring ways of changing legislation which means they'd also get their cash. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Jolson 3 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 As it stands, CW is the preferred creditor but I believe HMRC are currently exploring ways of changing legislation which means they'd also get their cash.And CW, as the preferred creditor, and a venture capitalist, is in a win-win situation. And again, as a venture capitalist, we can expect him to be involved with the club for around about 5-7 years. Probably why he was talking so much in 5 year terms in the run up to and completion of purchasing the club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Whyte may prefer a short-medium term reign but I'd fancy he'll encounter the same difficulty SDM had when trying to sell.Especially if he chops and changes his opinion about what he intends to invest into the club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian 4,281 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Whyte would have to be insane to think he could turn Rangers around and leave with any sort of profit in 5-7 years.Whyte is not insane.Those who seem determined to see him as a short term fix who's in this to make a quick buck are very much mistaken.He could do that with many other more profitable and less risky businesses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebooler 4,509 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Whyte would have to be insane to think he could turn Rangers around and leave with any sort of profit in 5-7 years.Whyte is not insane.Those who seem determined to see him as a short term fix who's in this to make a quick buck are very much mistaken.He could do that with many other more profitable and less risky businesses.Exactly, and with a whole lot less bad publicity. This guy has actually staked his reputation on the Rangers. He won't want to fail, and as he says, he won't.Let's just hope he's right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDBigBear 10,865 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Craig Whyte bought the Club simply because he is a supporter. If this was a normal venture capital case, he would have run a mile. The whole takeover saga took a while as Whyte (sensibly) would have the books carefully checked. The main problem is the first (and largest) HMRC case. No one knows what this figure could actually amount to, particularly when a tribunal has still to decide one way or the other. I anticipate an appeal from whichever party loses in round one. Just in case HMRC win and RFC is held accountable for whatever millions, Whyte's takeover deal has been set up to ensure that he is a preferential creditor. Why does any Rangers fan think that is particularly bad? No other party came in for the Club on a serious basis. If any fan out there would do any different from Whyte then I certainly haven't read it on this forum. Buy the club's debt and add other expenditure to total in the region of £20m to £25m just to see it go down the drain 6 months later if HMRC win the case? I don't think so and clearly neither does Craig Whyte. His PR side of things could be better but we are in a far better financial position now than pre-takeover. If Rangers win this HMRC case then Whyte has promised to wipe the sum of money currently shown as owed to his company in RFC accounts. For everyone's information, Rangers FC is not the only club awaiting the outcome of this case. I believe we are a test case.The second smaller HMRC case (arising from RFC accounting in the period 1999 to 2003) only came fully to the fore just prior to the takeover and I believe that this claim arose due to HMRC winning a test case against another company for the same type of tax avoidance. Tax avoidance is not a crime but tax evasion is. If there was tax evasion then criminal charges would be instigated against those responsible. As that hasn't happened, it is safe to assume that the problem arose due to interpretation of Tax Laws. Obviously, the Tax Laws in such situations cannot be clear cut otherwise no such tribunals and test cases would arise. Whyte has stated that HMRC had not provided the paperwork for the new Rangers people to peruse but then shortly after they hit the Club with an arrestment on a sum in the Club's bank accounts. According to Rangers, RFC agree that some payment is due (and a significant 6 figure sum has been paid) but RFC disputes the initial total of £2.8m (approx) and the £1.4m penalty. The Club will obviously require time to fully investigate the HMRC claim. I do wonder however why some provision was not made in the accounts for the total sum before this year as the Board at RFC knew of this claim sometime between June and December 2010. The Interim Report mentions a provision of £900,000 for this item. The question is, how did this rise suddenly to £4.2m by May 2011? That is surely down to the previous Board to answer. What we Rangers fans need to remember is that both these problems arose due to the previous Board and Whyte is doing his best to resolve them with as little cost to RFC as possible. These things take time.As for Martin Bain, having met the man on a number of occasions, I have found him to be relatively pleasant when discussing matters relevant to Rangers. However, in the last ten years he will have received over £4m from Rangers which is quite ridiculous for his position. I certainly don't see how he can get bonuses and salary increases whilst the Club's financial position was in such perilous state. As far as I can see, the turnaround in the Club's fortunes in the last couple of years was due to the hate figures placed on the Board (ie Messrs Muir and McGill). They were given the task of ensuring that costs were greatly reduced. Both these men are big Rangers fans and they had a thankless task. They got all the flak when previous Board members had created the problem. I also find it disgraceful that Martin Bain is claiming £1.3m from Rangers. He was fortunate to have the job and the fantastic salary. He was grossly overpaid for the position. He may find himself under investigation for corporate mismanagement or such similar charge. Time will tell on that one.How did Rangers get in to the current mess? With the HMRC cases, RFC will have taken tax advice at the time but you take such advice at your own risk. The lack of clarity with Tax rules has been seized upon by HMRC who are desperate to raise tax income following pressure from the UK Government. The Treasury needs money from anywhere it can get it as the UK is in financial trouble. We are not the only business being hounded although the publicity we are receiving due to deliberate leaking of information makes it appear so. There is undoubtedly an anti-Rangers element involved in how the media find out about HMRC visits, etc. We must also consider what input Sir David Murray has had in the past. £12m for Flo and £14m for Murray Park are two examples of extreme expenditure which impacted at a time when the Club's revenue streams began to be adversely affected. The Murray group had been bank-rolling RFC but MIH companies hit a downturn. TV money reduced dramatically due to the SPL going with Setanta instead of Sky. When Setanta inevitably collapsed, Sky had the SPL over the proverbial barrel. I'm not totally absolving David Murray from blame, but for many years we all bought a ticket on the Murray gravy train.There is little that the ordinary Rangers fan can do about the situation at this time other than to support the Club, buy the tickets and merchandise and to encourage the team on the park. (No sectarian singing though!!!) What I would ask everyone (or anyone) who reads this is: Would you be prepared to buy into the Club in the future? An estimated 200,000 went to Manchester in 2008. If they all gave £100 to RFC that would be £20m, £200 is £40m. Suddenly the HMRC problem doesn't look quite so daunting. If 50,000 bought into the Club at £500 each (£10 per week for 1 year) that would raise £25m. I would do it for the three members of my family, would any of you? Craig Whyte may not have the mega money we would like him to have for investment in Rangers, but no one else is coming forward. We need to give him a chance and please ignore the mischievous rumours in the media and in internet forums such as Rangers Media. There are few (if any) facts in the majority of the posts and media articles. The larger HMRC case has been common knowledge for close on 2 years but the media would have you think that this is all new. Both cases were noted in the Club's accounts during 2010 so it is old news rehashed in sensationalist fashion. In the last few days Mr Whyte has issued statements and given a TV interview all available on the Rangers web site. They make a fair amount of sense to me although only time will tell whether Craig Whyte will be good for Rangers or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebooler 4,509 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Excellent post. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunslinger 270 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Excellent post. agreed Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILLYBOY50 1,638 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 great post mate we will just all have to wait and see what the future holds for the rangers with our new owner and management,and i for one would be more than willing to give the club whatever funds i could afford if and when they need our help. w.a.t.p Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryH 15 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Great post Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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