FanOwnership Part 2 (only an idea)

[RangersForMe 10]

I must be a glutton for punishment

Well herre goes anyway, after just having an online meeting/discussion etc a variety of subjects came up and one we agreed all agreed on was, is there a better option than the FanOwnership Model currently in bears den.

That module has been put infront of near 1000 fans and the overwhelming majority around 950 have viewed it positively, however given that we are trying to get the best option for the fans we wanted to look at a different way.

So here goes.

Same nuts and bolts as the other module, with a few changes.

Just a quick reminder of the other

looking for around 250,000 fans to buy membership into the club at £200 per membership and £20 per month giving 1 vote on important club matters, most people feel it is a small amount to pay for the saving of the club and its future being secured.

The revised idea, and i stress it is only an idea to gauge reaction.

Currently an approx £550 for the ST which is split about £137 a month for 4 Months.

What we are looking at as an option is the minimum buy being £300 per membership 175,000(but if need be allowing for joint members) and £20 per month.

This fee can also be split and paid over 4 months (£75 pm if you want equal)

So for 4 months of the year it would cost 95 per month and the remaining 8 months you would pay just £20

For ST holders looking to join this scheme as a hopeful incentive we would offer the ST price to be payable at 12 months of £45 (interest free)

As the money need for the running of the club would already be in, there would be no need for interest to be paid and a much easier way of paying for your ST.

So

Jan - Mar £65 per month

Apr - July £140 per month

Aug - Dec £65 per month

Works out around £20 per week including your season ticket full price

175,000 x £300 - £52.5M for debt clearance and all outstanding monies

175,000 x £20 - £3.5M for running costs

35,000 ST holder avg 550 £18.9M

Plus all other revenue into the pot which covers the transfer kitty, stadium repairs and people and pay people who actually tear the media a new hole.

Apart from the expected never gonna happen remarks.

What do people think to something like this?

[DIESEL RFC 32]

Struggle to get 175 000 imo

[A.T.G 10,773]

Business plan

Approach the admin

Official site

Then I'm in

[TheLawMan 6,240]

Im sorry mate but the administrators need a plan by a week on Friday. I can tell you right now what their reaction would be if you suggest your plan is to get 175,000 people to part with £300.

As much as im against them, you would simply be better joining TBK and focussing your energy there.

[TheFarmer 260]

A membership model wouldn't work unless the total annual cost was less than £100.

The lower the cost the more memberships bought, somewhere between £60 and £100 would probably bring in the most money.

[TheFarmer 260]

A membership model wont save the club NOW.

But is something that must be looked at once we are back on our feet.

[krissg910 110]

a like the plan, and all the hardwork yous guys are putting in is brilliant.

the big problem i see is 175,000 x £300 - £52.5M for debt clearance and all outstanding monies, as i believe the admin will want gaurantees you can produce said money by an appointed date and worst still they may want it upfront.

however if your are successful then you can count on my membership.

keep up the great work and good luck

[RangersForMe 10]

A membership model wouldn't work unless the total annual cost was less than £100.

The lower the cost the more memberships bought, somewhere between £60 and £100 would probably bring in the most money.

Strangely enough my first thread (the other one) was for £100 and was widely shot down by a few folk for being pie in the sky so to speak.

Just goes to show

[TheFarmer 260]

Strangely enough my first thread (the other one) was for £100 and was widely shot down by a few folk for being pie in the sky so to speak.

Just goes to show

From previous research on the european type membership schemes, most are around £50 with none more than £90 per annum.

Maybe the hardcore of the fanbase, probably including yourself and myself would be willing to pay £300 per annum on top of season ticket money, but there would be nowhere near great enough numbers to raise a significant amount.

By making the memberships £50 - £100 per year opens it up to alot more casual fans who don't regularly attend games, but want to play their part.

All the big european clubs with more than 100,000 members (Benfica, Schalke, Bayern, Madrid, Bercelona, etc...) have low cost memberships.

Benfica have the most members of any club in europe at 160,000 [Link] and this has been buit up over a vast number of years. So i also think your estimations for 175,000 memberships is unrealistic (Certainly initially)

As stated above a membership scheme will not save Rangers FC in its hour of need, but is certainly something that must be looked at once we are back on a stable footing.

Our hopes right now lie with TBK. Anyone with serious cash looking into buying the club should seriously consider joining forces with TBK.

The more the merrier.

[nachothelegend 1,932]

I would go as far to say this plan is more realistic in terms of numbers mate.

If we can get someone to lead this up then i would be in .

Get that big name and this may roll.

Good luck guys and i think this could run in conjuction with TBK. IMO.

I am excited by these ideas and good to see our fans thinking outside the box.

The potential our club has is awsome and i hope this Fan ownership can kick off post admin.

Some one ones said a problem can become an opportunity.

And i think this can become an opportunity for our club to get rid of the Rats who have taken us to this point.

[Dunny_01 2,007]

Alex i m right behind u and i will pay that membership fee but ur original plan at the £100 is by a mile better mate.

i had my granny goin to give u a £100 and a direct debit so how many grannys will do the same but

my granny wont give u £300 u see what im saying. ur figures are goin down to 175000 people but u were right the first time try 250,000 up wards i have no doubt about that.

Scottie mcclue always said tell 10 to tell 10 and thats what will happen and with ur big boys buying bigger memberships then ur original plan was perfect. im only offering my humble opinion, but the work u boys are doin is to be so highly commendable and if u pull it off i would take great delight in handing u lot my money!!!! well done again

[southcoastbear 1,639]

It's definately the way to go IMO. Regrettably I fear any such scheme would be subject to good will of whomsoever takes over at Rangers as things stand at the present time. However I wolud not let this stop you puting together a package because if you could intially put together a proposal that was backed by a significant quantity of fans I would hope that any chairman who has Rangers best interest at heart could not fail to listen.

I think you need to set yourself an initial target of 25,000 fans. Realistic and I believe achievable.

I think the amounts need to be realistic:

Signing on charge, entry fee, as you will: £100

Monthly membership £ 10 PCM

Though this may not initially raise the finances that you would desire initially it does meet one key criteria which I would suggest is vital. It excludes noone.

Those who would wish to invest more, respect to you lads, I would feel are more suited to the saverangers type scheme. There is no reason that both schemes could not run parallel and you would not alienate people and may even gain their trust and help.

I would be looking long term, could be 10 to 25 years whereby 51% is held by the membership scheme and 49% is for shareholders.

Even at the initial 25,000 fans if you get more great, the monies involved are not insignificant.

25,000 times £100 =

25,000 times £120 annual membership, and the key is this is annually

Long term I read somewhere that benfica, a much smaller club than Rangers IMO, has 330,000 members paying an annual subscription every year. Thats alot of money evry year coming in and that is the key.

Rangers supporters groups all over the world could be formalised and do fundraising, fun stuff parties with a band, raffles etc. etc. it's proven, it works and you can have a laugh get pissed, meet lots of like minded individuals and raise significant funds for the club you hold so dear.

Just a couple of ideas, no offence taken I sincerely hope. The very best of luck to you and my respect if you can get it off the ground.

[Fleece-E-B 0]

I think you are getting closer to something that ticks all the boxes. I had been working on a plan prior to your thread starting. However, I do not think the fans need competing models. We need one movement to unite all and that is not going to be the RST. I have followed your thread with interest and feel now is the time to comment.

I have the following suggestions:

- I think 175,000 is a realistic target. There has been a lot of debate as to the relevance of this 'target number'. It is hugely important, it is effectively the 'market research' of your business proposal. This figure can be justified be season ticket holders + families + elements of wider support. Also comparable to some of the Euro clubs with schemes

- That number of people will not pay £300 every year. But they may do once, in order to save The Rangers.

- I suggest you offer membership for a 'one off' £300, split into 4 x £75 payments. Ongoing subscription for those that pay up £300 to save Rangers = £5 per month.

- As a call to action, to get people to stump up the £300, you have a cut off date. Anyone signing up after this can, but for £25 per month. After all, Rangers shouldn't turn down a potential revenue stream. Those subscribing at a later date should complete 1 year of payments prior becoming eligible to 'vote'.

The advantages of this: it generates the up front cash to get Rangers out of their current predicament; ongoing subscription is affordable (60 per year); and ongoing revenues are £10.5 mil per year.

As I said, I was working on a plan previously. I have studied Rangers accounts and in a past life I worked in the financial industry. I also studied Sports Med under Prof Hillis (yes, the man that signed off Prodan's knee!!). I can offer you some more 'ideas' and also guidance on how to structure your movement as an business entity that protects everyone, if you do not have this tied down already. If you are interested in hearing more, please pm me.

Finally, if you do not have any money to cover the set up admin, I would suggest you get your website out there. Add a 'donate now' paypal button. If your 1000 followers donate 2 pound each, that would be more than enough to get started. It would also test if people are prepared to part with even a small amount of cash, although make it very clear what they are contributing to.

Good luck, but the time for ideas is nearly over and you will need to be decisive and go firm on your charter v v soon.

[stefmartin16 121]

In my opinion for this to work it must be affordable to most bears. I would think most could afford £10 a month if they have money they can buy as many packages as they want up to a certain amount. When you talk about £20 or £30 a month people may say on an online forum, yes I would pay that but when it comes to the money coming out of the bank account you may get a different reaction. Remember this is a club for the people. That should include the majority of the people. Don't price yourself out of the market.

[RangersForMe 10]

From previous research on the european type membership schemes, most are around £50 with none more than £90 per annum.

Maybe the hardcore of the fanbase, probably including yourself and myself would be willing to pay £300 per annum on top of season ticket money, but there would be nowhere near great enough numbers to raise a significant amount.

By making the memberships £50 - £100 per year opens it up to alot more casual fans who don't regularly attend games, but want to play their part.

All the big european clubs with more than 100,000 members (Benfica, Schalke, Bayern, Madrid, Bercelona, etc...) have low cost memberships.

Benfica have the most members of any club in europe at 160,000 [Link] and this has been buit up over a vast number of years. So i also think your estimations for 175,000 memberships is unrealistic (Certainly initially)

As stated above a membership scheme will not save Rangers FC in its hour of need, but is certainly something that must be looked at once we are back on a stable footing.

Our hopes right now lie with TBK. Anyone with serious cash looking into buying the club should seriously consider joining forces with TBK.

The more the merrier.

See this is the kind of reasoning and criticism i love.

Detailed, responsive and also having other genuine reason for your argument/point of view, unlike certain people on this board.

And for that i am truly thankful becuase these places need more people like you who have an argument and a solution to go with your points.

Your points on TBK are valid, certainly to what i hear anyway, or certainly most likely.

The idea behind the cost is that the debt needs to be cleared, if the debt wasn't there then we wouldnt need anywhere near the investment from the fans that is currently being looked at, which is what we have ideas on in the background and what we have spoken about in our "meetings" which so far have had to be online due to logistics and time contraints on deadlines.

We are working hard on the here and now and also with one step on the possible future we have, so either way we will be ready to take the steps on to get our club back, stuff of which i dont want to go into, on here.

But i certainly respect your opinion, it's different from mine, but you are quite clearly looking for a solution, like we are, so i would definately like to speak to you a bit more with regards to what we are doing moving forward with what we know to be the likely outcome and trying as always to seek wider opinions of people who know what they are talking about and can add much valued dialogue.

Then certainly if you wanted to offer more opinions we would certainly take heed to what you say and discuss your input.

Thanks for taking the time to give some well thoughtout debate that wasnt just looking for attention.

[RangersForMe 10]

In my opinion for this to work it must be affordable to most bears. I would think most could afford £10 a month if they have money they can buy as many packages as they want up to a certain amount. When you talk about £20 or £30 a month people may say on an online forum, yes I would pay that but when it comes to the money coming out of the bank account you may get a different reaction. Remember this is a club for the people. That should include the majority of the people. Don't price yourself out of the market.

Definately mate, the original module, we are all agreed behind the scenes is the way forward, small and affordable amounts, with a few tweaks here and there.

The problem is there is huge debt hanging over Ibrox and that needs to be cleared and the people who clear will want it back.

If that wasnt there, we have tweaked it for that scenario too.

Of course this is for the fans,as many fans as possibe, we are fans too, we are not business men, the original plan i put there, that has been something i have slowly put together, i'm no business man or loaded fan, but one thing i have is an undying love for my club so it is basically a module of how i would love to see my club run, then one day i thought for the hell of it i would put it out there.

The response i will be honest was much more positive than i had hoped for, i still dont understand why people criticised it, even if they didnt like it i was just a guy with a silly idea.

He we are a year or so later and about to go into the mainstream with it, people are offering their help, their money, their time, their skills.

It's incredible and it is why we are the people and i will say one thing, we are going for it big time, we have a few things in our sight, and a game plan to get their one step at a time.

The trolls only drive us on more.

I'll be shocked if you dont like what we are about to do.

Thanks for your input mate, to be fair we just expected people to tear it to bits, was too low etc, but there are good points to it like the interest free ST, we belive the fans should be allowed that option and given everything working out at some point, they will be given the option.

And many other benefits.

Without us the club is nothing.

Without the club we are nothing.

[TheFarmer 260]

See this is the kind of reasoning and criticism i love.

Detailed, responsive and also having other genuine reason for your argument/point of view, unlike certain people on this board.

And for that i am truly thankful becuase these places need more people like you who have an argument and a solution to go with your points.

Your points on TBK are valid, certainly to what i hear anyway, or certainly most likely.

The idea behind the cost is that the debt needs to be cleared, if the debt wasn't there then we wouldnt need anywhere near the investment from the fans that is currently being looked at, which is what we have ideas on in the background and what we have spoken about in our "meetings" which so far have had to be online due to logistics and time contraints on deadlines.

We are working hard on the here and now and also with one step on the possible future we have, so either way we will be ready to take the steps on to get our club back, stuff of which i dont want to go into, on here.

But i certainly respect your opinion, it's different from mine, but you are quite clearly looking for a solution, like we are, so i would definately like to speak to you a bit more with regards to what we are doing moving forward with what we know to be the likely outcome and trying as always to seek wider opinions of people who know what they are talking about and can add much valued dialogue.

Then certainly if you wanted to offer more opinions we would certainly take heed to what you say and discuss your input.

Thanks for taking the time to give some well thoughtout debate that wasnt just looking for attention.

Cheers mate, I always enjoy good debate.

I just don't think a membership scheme is going to get us out of this mess. Membership schemes across Europe are not about a major one off cash injection. They are about giving the fans a voice in the running of the club and giving the club a steady annual income, a realistic income from memberships in our case, for a club our size, would be £6m a year imo.

If we were looking for a massive cash injection to clear the debts I think someone (or a consortium of people) would have to have enough cash to get the club from the administrators, then initiate a share issue. Which if happened soon would almost certainly be one of the biggest fan based share issues in football history, due to our current plight and the fans willingness to do whatever possible to help out.

But good on you for being proactive in looking for a solution.

Just hope someone can do something before its too late.

[JCDBigBear 10,860]

In principle, the idea is good but the final version will need a bit of work. No matter what is eventually agreed with this proposal it will not get off the ground in time to have much effect on our situation in the short term. Will PM you RFM.

[RangersForMe 10]

Cheers mate, I always enjoy good debate.

I just don't think a membership scheme is going to get us out of this mess. Membership schemes across Europe are not about a major one off cash injection. They are about giving the fans a voice in the running of the club and giving the club a steady annual income, a realistic income from memberships in our case, for a club our size, would be £6m a year imo.

If we were looking for a massive cash injection to clear the debts I think someone (or a consortium of people) would have to have enough cash to get the club from the administrators, then initiate a share issue. Which if happened soon would almost certainly be one of the biggest fan based share issues in football history, due to our current plight and the fans willingness to do whatever possible to help out.

But good on you for being proactive in looking for a solution.

Just hope someone can do something before its too late.

Yes mate, i am confident that things will be sorted relatively soon, if anything to shut the darkside up.

Well you certainly dont agree with me, but you are welcome to speak to me anytime you want re: fan ownership etc

I welcome all criticism, depsite what a certain poster thinks, i just dont like his views because he picks certain parts of posts and uses them to be negative without putting forward any solution.

But your post made total sense and to be honest, we have tweaked my original 100 and 10 pm a little to make it more accessible to even the lower paid of our fans who want to still help.

It's all about what is best for the club.

We are certain if our plan does not go to plan, then we have our next goal waiting in the wings.

Not once did we ever mention that we did or did not have a benefactor waiting in the wings, the fact is we felt there wasnt any point mentioning it and mentioning names because of the trolls.

We currently are still clinging on to 2 options where the module i put forward would be an exit strategy for the investors not a save issue.

We just need to wait and see now if the project is worth taking on for these people, with we are hoping the pitch of having a fund that while not guaranteed but if we use the media functions right they are more or less covered to be able to come in, clear all the mess up, take the hero adulation they would receive then exit with their fee.

The difference is, to put it in the original message would have just taken sight away from the project, which is fan ownership and would the majority back.

Well so far we have around 90-95% positive feedback froma wide ranging pot of bears, so that only shows us that the more we take it too the more we will get in favour.

I am still shocked and quite disappointed that on both forums none of the admin teams gave us any input whatsoever, none, not even a bad one.

But the good thing is, we dont need it, we only need the bears who support it and the guys like yourself who think while it may not work but have valid back ups.

I listen and take notice of every single person when they have a and here is what i think, or here is why i think.

It's easy to knock something, we can all do that, very few people who knock things ever offer a different solution.

Our solution is simple, people have f*cked us over and left us in a mountain of debt.

That has to cleared.

The people who clear it will at some point want it back.

So if we are unsuccessful on the deadline, we are universally agreed behind the scenes that the work really begins then.

[RangersForMe 10]

Alex i m right behind u and i will pay that membership fee but ur original plan at the £100 is by a mile better mate.

i had my granny goin to give u a £100 and a direct debit so how many grannys will do the same but

my granny wont give u £300 u see what im saying. ur figures are goin down to 175000 people but u were right the first time try 250,000 up wards i have no doubt about that.

Scottie mcclue always said tell 10 to tell 10 and thats what will happen and with ur big boys buying bigger memberships then ur original plan was perfect. im only offering my humble opinion, but the work u boys are doin is to be so highly commendable and if u pull it off i would take great delight in handing u lot my money!!!! well done again

As you know mate, this option was never in real terms a goer, we just wanted to see what people thought, to be honest it has hit home again how good the first plan is, but maybe just lacking in time.

We have made a few tweaks to the original, but i will tell you about it in advance of launch mate.

[RangersForMe 10]

Im sorry mate but the administrators need a plan by a week on Friday. I can tell you right now what their reaction would be if you suggest your plan is to get 175,000 people to part with £300.

As much as im against them, you would simply be better joining TBK and focussing your energy there.

It's a good job i am not stupid enough to think that it ever was a possibility, it never has been and never will be.

[RangersForMe 10]

A membership model wont save the club NOW.

But is something that must be looked at once we are back on our feet.

Just looking to gauge reaction.

That is why there was no poll etc purely a look to see what the difference in response was to the numbers.

[TheFarmer 260]

Yes mate, i am confident that things will be sorted relatively soon, if anything to shut the darkside up.

Well you certainly dont agree with me, but you are welcome to speak to me anytime you want re: fan ownership etc

I welcome all criticism, depsite what a certain poster thinks, i just dont like his views because he picks certain parts of posts and uses them to be negative without putting forward any solution.

But your post made total sense and to be honest, we have tweaked my original 100 and 10 pm a little to make it more accessible to even the lower paid of our fans who want to still help.

It's all about what is best for the club.

We are certain if our plan does not go to plan, then we have our next goal waiting in the wings.

Not once did we ever mention that we did or did not have a benefactor waiting in the wings, the fact is we felt there wasnt any point mentioning it and mentioning names because of the trolls.

We currently are still clinging on to 2 options where the module i put forward would be an exit strategy for the investors not a save issue.

We just need to wait and see now if the project is worth taking on for these people, with we are hoping the pitch of having a fund that while not guaranteed but if we use the media functions right they are more or less covered to be able to come in, clear all the mess up, take the hero adulation they would receive then exit with their fee.

The difference is, to put it in the original message would have just taken sight away from the project, which is fan ownership and would the majority back.

Well so far we have around 90-95% positive feedback froma wide ranging pot of bears, so that only shows us that the more we take it too the more we will get in favour.

I am still shocked and quite disappointed that on both forums none of the admin teams gave us any input whatsoever, none, not even a bad one.

But the good thing is, we dont need it, we only need the bears who support it and the guys like yourself who think while it may not work but have valid back ups.

I listen and take notice of every single person when they have a and here is what i think, or here is why i think.

It's easy to knock something, we can all do that, very few people who knock things ever offer a different solution.

Our solution is simple, people have f*cked us over and left us in a mountain of debt.

That has to cleared.

The people who clear it will at some point want it back.

So if we are unsuccessful on the deadline, we are universally agreed behind the scenes that the work really begins then.

I really hope it works out mate.

I have been dreaming of a membership scheme for years.

Just didn't think it would be a plausible method of clearing the debt.

Now you mention benefactors changes my view slightly.

A benefactor coming in, clearing the debt and setting up a membership scheme would be brilliant.

It would probably take a few years (5-10?) for them to get their money back, but by god they would be entitled to it if they could get us out of this mess and living within our means.

[RangersForMe 10]

a like the plan, and all the hardwork yous guys are putting in is brilliant.

the big problem i see is 175,000 x £300 - £52.5M for debt clearance and all outstanding monies, as i believe the admin will want gaurantees you can produce said money by an appointed date and worst still they may want it upfront.

however if your are successful then you can count on my membership.

keep up the great work and good luck

This is what has been on our midset from the very beginning, because there is 30m of debt say, it doesnt mean it needs to be paid on day one they might want it paid in instalments etc.

Which is why i answered your other point in that we were spending more time focusing on where the money would come from, rather than where it has to go

You dont need to find 30M if they want say 2M a year as an example.

would be great but not always the way business is done.

[RangersForMe 10]

I really hope it works out mate.

I have been dreaming of a membership scheme for years.

Just didn't think it would be a plausible method of clearing the debt.

Now you mention benefactors changes my view slightly.

A benefactor coming in, clearing the debt and setting up a membership scheme would be brilliant.

It would probably take a few years (5-10?) for them to get their money back, but by god they would be entitled to it if they could get us out of this mess and living within our means.

Depends on numbers, which is why we had to gauge support, if the numbers are there, then the exit strategy is almost the day all the mess is cleared up and the straight and narrow is once again trodden.

The thing is, a lot of these people are egotistical for success, but more so adulation.

If there is the premiss of being able to almost have hero status with the likely hood you will get all your money back or even a profit then it is a serious option for a certain type of person.

Its all good saying we need the debt cleared, we know for definate one bidder was put off because of the lack of exit.

This is why i believe the next owner of Rangers will be fans, not in our sense that they are everyday fans, but very rich fans who depite all their wealth still look at the club like any man on the street does.

What will be important for anyone looking to clear the debt is, how do i get my money back.

And this is where we believe the future of Rangers lies.

We aim to be at the head of the queue if that happens and we miss out this time.