Am I a Bigot?

[Frankie 505]

These threads are getting depressing, our obsession with all things Timmy has reached record levels. This faux war against a few journos and the odd insignificant person taht no-one has ever heard of is getting ridiculous.

Did you read the thread as you're doing the contributors within it an injustice with unnecessary comments like those....?

This isn't about some obsession with Celtic. This is about our club, how we are perceived and how best to maximise the way the improvements we have already made can be applied further.

There is also no 'war' against the media here. However, people are, quite rightly in my view, taking issue with the way they cover such an emotive subject while challenging the lies they often publish. Moreover, if you think the SPL, the SFA, UEFA, the police, the Scottish Government and the First Minister (all people/bodies involved in the debate) are insignificant, then the only person being ridiculous is you.

The sectarianism industry (for that's what it is) costs the tax-payer millions of pounds in 'initiative investment'; creates and maintains tension via sensationalised and flawed media coverage; and is an ongoing sham in what is is trying to achieve with the result being only minimal arrests and hardly any change of position in the problem per se.

That is a national scandal and the real secret shame.

[RM Monitor And Standards Officer 112,912]

If only most of you lot who are rabbiting on new! the UVF were a regiment! they lost man in the battles of the great war! they have a UVF regimental band! are they gloryfying child killers? some just come on here dont think and post

What is bigoted in any of these songs???

The Sash My Father Wore

Sure l'm an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin's isle I came,

To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,

And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,

That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!

cho: It is old but it is beautiful, and its colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.

My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore

And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once

more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,

We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum

And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore

As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

derrys walls

The time has scarce gone round boys

Three hundred years ago

When rebels on old Derry's walls

Their faces dare not show

When James and all his rebel band

Came up to Bishop's Gate

With heart and hand and sword and shield

We forced him to retreat

We'll fight and don't surrender

But come when duty calls

With heart and hand and sword and shield

We'll guard old Derry's walls

When blood did flow in crimson streams

Through many a winter's night

They knew the Lord was on their side

To help them in their fight

They nobly stood up on the walls

Determined for to fight

Or fight and gain the victory

And raise the crimson high

We'll fight and don't surrender

But come when duty calls

With heart and hand and sword and shield

We'll guard old Derry's walls

At last, at last with one broadside

Kind heaven sent them aid

The boom that crossed the Foyle was broke

And James he was dismayed

The banner boys that floated

Was run aloft with joy

God bless the hands that broke the boom

And saved the apprentice boys

We'll fight and don't surrender

But come when duty calls

With heart and hand and sword and shield

We'll guard old Derry's walls

Rule britania

When Britain first, at heaven's command,

Arose from out the azure main,

Arose, arose, arose from out the a-azure main,

This was the charter, the charter of the land,

And guardian angels sang this strain:

Rule Britania!

Britannia rule the waves.

Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

Rule Britannia!

Britannia rule the waves.

Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

The nations, not so blest as thee,

Must in their turn, to tyrants fall,

Must in ,must in, must in their turn, to tyrants fall,

While thou shalt flourish, shalt flourish great and free,

The dread and envy of them all.

(Chorus)

Rule Britannia!

Britannia rule the waves.

Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

Rule Britannia!

Britannia rule the waves.

Brittons never, never, never shall be slaves

udr 4

I'm a young Ulster Soldier from north of the border,

I'm one of the U.D.R 4,

They charged me murder just me and no other,

Now I am a lifer called Neil Latimer.

They locked me away where the sweet light of day,

Half reaches my Prison Cell door,

But no matter how long i'll fight on and on,

As one of the U.D.R 4.

Free Free I just want to be,

As free as the wind and the rain and the sea,

Free Free I just want to be,

Out where the rivers run free,

So strike up the drum let me shoulder my gun,

Let the flutes play the Sash that my dear father wore,

Open the gates let me rejoin my mates,

As one of the U.D.R 4.

Together again we'll fight as young men,

As our forefathers did in the great days of yore,

And the IRA scum over the border will run,

In the charge of the U.D.R. 4.

Free Free I just want to be,

As free as the wind and the rain and the sea,

Free Free I just want to be,

Out where the rivers run free,

So strike up the drum let me shoulder my gun,

Let the flutes play the Sash that my dear father wore,

Open the gates let me rejoin my mates,.

As one of the U.D.R 4.

So strike up the drum let me shoulder my gun,

Let the flutes play the Sash that my dear father wore,

Open the gates let me rejoin my mates,

As one of the U.D.R 4.

Together again we'll fight as young men,

As our forefathers did in the great days of yore,

And the IRA scum over the border will run,

In the charge of the U.D.R. 4.

here lies a soldier

In dungeon deep, I know what fates awaits me,

Tied hand and foot, the foe has bound me fast,

And in my pain, I pray my God above me,

Will grant this wish I know will be my last.

Don't bury me in Erin's f****n valley,

Take me home to Ulster let me rest,

And on my gravestone carve a simple message,

Here lies a soldier of the UVF.

Here lies a soldier, here lies a soldier,

Who fought and died for what he thought was best,

Here lies a soldier, here lies a soldier,

Here lies a soldier of the UVF.

So gently drape the red hand round my shoulders,

Pin no heroes medals on my chest,

But if they ask you, will you kindly tell them,

Here lies a soldier of the UVF.

Here lies a soldier, here lies a soldier,

Who fought and died for what he thought was best,

Here lies a soldier, here lies a soldier,

Here lies a soldier of the UVF.

These are/were commonly sang at the home of the rangers and to be honest if this offends you, you are sadder than the mopes. The UVF were heros! they sacrificed what many of us wouldnt have dreamed of. The UVF helped Britain be what it is like today. how these gallant men would turn in there graves if they could see the shite that happens here now. Brave man who charged across battle fields, sacrificing there lives.

They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old.

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning

We will remember them.

UVF

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Ah the old Rangers=Protestant=bigot claim. Doing the work of the dark side for them, I see.

I must admit it always make me laugh to see people like Spiers and BP9 preach about tolerance yet complain vociferously when people have a different outlook to supporting the club to them.

Irony doesn't seem to breach their suits of politically correct armour in the same way meaningless chants do.

Of course Rangers and our support should always be open to challenge about how we operate but we're well within our rights to refute that challenge and stand our ground when such challenges are disingenuous.

I say again Rangers are one of the world's most inclusive institutions - open to all. The flying of a few Union flags, the singing of a few historic chants and the lampooning of our footballing rivals doesn't change that absolute and irrefutable fact.

I will reply to this post to cover a number of previous posts:

1. THis is the bears den - its meant to be about Rangers - they are a football team. Its is on a forum called Rangersmedia - for Rangers fans. It is not a religious organisation - why not go and start a protestant medai forum and post all your debates about the degeneration and erosion or that protestant way of life on there? - Oh yes that right - NO ONE WOULD GO THERE! so to try to try to garner some support for these causes it suits those who want to defend that cause to have it associated with Rangers as that is the only way thye can hope to have an audience!

2. The reason I reply to these posts is that I have recognised that Rangers have to change to survive - after all we were a great football team before Celtic were even formed and before we adopted a protestant alligence. It is my belief that it is to our detrimment to keep these asscoiations going - society is changing and so must we - that is my opinion - but its seems that many who want 'free speech' onn here for their causes would liike to deny me this right. I care about the direction this club goes in and my opinion may be different from 'some ' others but its an opinion I am and will debate. Religion and Politics have no place in football! - its simple. This is the Bears Den abot Rangers for Rangers fans - so I think we should keep it that way and debate other issues elsewhere.

3. I note that as Frankie feels challenged in debate he always resorts to twisting information. I also note Frankie says we should be open to debate - after trying to get me to stop posting because my views are disingineous !! LOL and he says I dont get Irony!!

4. Rangers is simple for me - its about the Football - trying to drag it back where in time where the only 'real' supporter is a Protestant-Unionist Loyalist is detrimental to the clubs future - that is my opinion but one i am happy to defend.

[RM Monitor And Standards Officer 112,912]

just a quick point here! if i read most of you lot correctly who are moaning about the OP then you guys go to ibrox and sit on your hands? is it you lot who are crushing the once great atmosphere we once had? or is it you who complain yet join in?

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

MON and Neil Lennon played for N.I.

Real bigots would never pull the green of NI on.

These threads are getting depressing, our obsession with all things Timmy has reached record levels. This faux war against a few journos and the odd insignificant person taht no-one has ever heard of is getting ridiculous.

To the OP, no you are not a bigot, a drama queen perhaps, but not a bigot.

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

[AMMS 27]

I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

Where are people being paranoid?

Of course there are unfounded theories about who and why certain sections of society are hostile to our club. I accept those can detract from the more salient points others make.

However, what can't be denied is that Rangers remain the only team to be punished for sectarian singing. This, in turn, causes further problems because the media (some of whom were complicit in the UEFA punishment) feel this means they can single out our club any time a controversial chant (or banner) is aired.

From that slewed coverage, what we have is others - from opposing fans, football authorities, social commentators, police forces, discredited charities and government ministers - taking this further by attempting to enforce unworkable and inconsistent laws/rules over the most needless stuff.

If this were happening across the board then fair enough, we could all moan. But it plainly does not happen across the board and it stems from an imbalance in media coverage primarily.

That isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Sorry Frankie I'm jumping around posts trying to keep up and just noticed this one.

The paranoia I refer too is in the opening posts of the two threads we've been discussing. These are some examples -

“And yet I am considered to be a bigot by a group of people who do not know me but who demonise me because I don,t follow their religion.”

“MON can run off to UEFA with his media chums and bad mouth Rangers because he,s not a bigot, we are. Such is the depth of brainwashing that, to them, a sectarian bigot is someone who is not a Catholic.”

“In truth, the fact that the Parade is under scrutiny and the methods are nothing new at all. In fact we can go back to the last century and the birth of communism to find the catalyst. In 1920 Lenin wrote “It is impossible to exercise dictatorship without having a number of transmission belts from the vanguard”

“A measure of the increased bravado of the usurpers within our midst was evidenced at Armed Forces Day in Glasgow. This was a first for even Glasgow...an attempt to deny the right of our armed forces marching through our streets.”

“I would suspect however that for these people our football club is on their radar of hated organisations.”

“For those who think that making our football club “whiter than white” will remove us from the enemy’s radar, I’m afraid you are sadly deluded. As much as Neville Chamberlain was when he told the British people he had in hands a piece of paper which guaranteed peace in our time”

I'm sorry but the posters are claiming being demonised because they aren't RC, that Martin O'Neil thinks anyone who isn't an RC is a sectarian bigot, quoting Lenin and comparing us to the Russian revolution and to Neville Chamberlain and the onset of world war two.

It is at best hyperbole but looks increasingly like paranoia to me.

Taking one or two posts from scores of other less entrenched ones to make an overall generalisation isn't really accurate though. I mentioned such unfounded theories above in the very first sentence of my reply you quoted.

However, as you can see from the rest of that post (which you don't comment on) the general situation is that Rangers are continually highlighted and censured while others are not. Again, that isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Why do you refuse to concede that Rangers are treated worse than others when the evidence is clear? And that often the treatment is unfair, inaccurate and only serves to increase problems as a result?

I was answering the specific question of 'where are people being paranoid?' and seeing as the cases I highlighted are in the original posts and are what I responded too initially (one of which is now the entry story to the entire site) I didn't feel I was being disingenuous in highlighting them. I accept entirely that you and several others have joined both threads and have made similar points in a more sober fashion but as most posters seem to agree with the tenor of the original posts then I don't feel highlighting is unfair.

What I'm refusing to concede is that there is an 'orchestrated campaign' going on. For me that is a jump too far. I have no problem admitting (and getting annoyed at) specific instances where I feel we are being treated unfairly but as I replied to Bluedell last night I'm struggling to accept it's a conspiracy. I think we're confusing incompetence with strategy and in doing so we are in danger of becoming what we mock in others.

[Frankie 505]

I will reply to this post to cover a number of previous posts:

1. THis is the bears den - its meant to be about Rangers - they are a football team. Its is on a forum called Rangersmedia - for Rangers fans. It is not a religious organisation - why not go and start a protestant medai forum and post all your debates about the degeneration and erosion or that protestant way of life on there? - Oh yes that right - NO ONE WOULD GO THERE! so to try to try to garner some support for these causes it suits those who want to defend that cause to have it associated with Rangers as that is the only way thye can hope to have an audience!

2. The reason I reply to these posts is that I have recognised that Rangers have to change to survive - after all we were a great football team before Celtic were even formed and before we adopted a protestant alligence. It is my belief that it is to our detrimment to keep these asscoiations going - society is changing and so must we - that is my opinion - but its seems that many who want 'free speech' onn here for their causes would liike to deny me this right. I care about the direction this club goes in and my opinion may be different from 'some ' others but its an opinion I am and will debate. Religion and Politics have no place in football! - its simple. This is the Bears Den abot Rangers for Rangers fans - so I think we should keep it that way and debate other issues elsewhere.

3. I note that as Frankie feels challenged in debate he always resorts to twisting information. I also note Frankie says we should be open to debate - after trying to get me to stop posting because my views are disingineous !! LOL and he says I dont get Irony!!

4. Rangers is simple for me - its about the Football - trying to drag it back where in time where the only 'real' supporter is a Protestant-Unionist Loyalist is detrimental to the clubs future - that is my opinion but one i am happy to defend.

1. I've already explained why this topic is relevant to Rangers. It contains much interesting discussion about the club and is completely relevant to it. It has many replies and dozens of people viewing it throughout the time it has been posted with only you wanting it moved. I've already asked you politely to refrain from taking the thread off-topic in this way. Please contact admin directly by pm/email if you feel the rules are being breached with regard to thread content.

2. As has been posted many times (and as you have ignored many times) Rangers have already changed to our benefit and continue to do so. No-one is suggesting otherwise - except when the requested changes are not required. No-one is denying you the right to express your opinion either. However, I'm not sure how you profess to do that given you don't want these subjects discussed with regard to Rangers? Make up your mind.

3. I don't feel challenged by you at all and I certainly haven't twisted anything. Please show me where I have though if I'm wrong. The only person that appears challenged is you - given your earlier bad language, attempted slurs and confused demands. Neither have I tried to stop you posting. I've merely asked you to keep your opinions on topic and refrain from laughable inferences that I am some sort of bigot.

4. I don't see many people (if any) suggesting to be a real Rangers supporter one has to be Protestant or Loyalist. That would be a ludicrous position to take and one I've challenged many times myself if I ever see it. Unfortunately I think, in you haste to be offended by the thread content, you actually missed many of the interesting (and respectfully opposing) points being raised within.

I suggest you go back, read through all the posts, then come back with something a bit more meaningful that the petty, confused rant above.

[Frankie 505]

I was answering the specific question of 'where are people being paranoid?' and seeing as the cases I highlighted are in the original posts and are what I responded too initially (one of which is now the entry story to the entire site) I didn't feel I was being disingenuous in highlighting them. I accept entirely that you and several others have joined both threads and have made similar points in a more sober fashion but as most posters seem to agree with the tenor of the original posts then I don't feel highlighting is unfair.

What I'm refusing to concede is that there is an 'orchestrated campaign' going on. For me that is a jump too far. I have no problem admitting (and getting annoyed at) specific instances where I feel we are being treated unfairly but as I replied to Bluedell last night I'm struggling to accept it's a conspiracy. I think we're confusing incompetence with strategy and in doing so we are in danger of becoming what we mock in others.

Fair enough.

To be perfectly honest, I don't believe there is some some of huge conspiracy theory going on either. However, there is no doubt in my eyes some people (a few journalists aided by others) have made a systematic attack on our club over the last 3-5 years especially.

And when you add in the apparently imbalanced nature of official actions and comments, then it isn't an unreasonable (or paranoid) leap to suggest there may be some sort of organisation to it. I completely accept that people shouldn't confuse incompetence with strategy but I don't accept that highlighting this incompetence and challenging it (when absolutely necessary) is something to be embarrassed about.

Indeed, since the club share those very concerns, I'm comfortable in my analysis and position moving forward. As always, I'm glad people like yourself offer respectful opposing views which can keep us all interested in the overall debate and getting the maximum out of it.

[Frankie 505]

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Unfortunately, I think some posters prefer the infamy of the continual contrary opinion to actually looking at subjects in a reasoned fashion.

The Neil Lennon DOB issue proves the point of slewed media/authority coverage perfectly. Why any Rangers fan would want to suggest Lennon isn't a bigot is beyond me?

[minstral 5,375]

All i have to say is keep out of the thread if it annoys you that much and let other members discuss and debate their point. And another thing is Frankie is a good mod who takes no sides and keeps his head while the rest of us go over the top sometimes myself included and should be shown respect. Also even if some fans dont like it Rangers and religon have always went hand and hand and to want it removed out of the Bears Den is stupid, if you dont agree then argue your point without going in the huff.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Unfortunately, I think some posters prefer the infamy of the continual contrary opinion to actually looking at subjects in a reasoned fashion.

The Neil Lennon DOB issue proves the point of slewed media/authority coverage perfectly. Why any Rangers fan would want to suggest Lennon isn't a bigot is beyond me?

I can sometimes be a bit contrary myself, you may have noticed..... At least it is my honest opinion though. I have never met/spoke to/encountered online a Rangers fan who doesn't think Lennon is a scumbag and a bigot.

He spat on a Rangers scarf and has publicly stated how much he hates our club, who would even begin to defend that......

[papaguy51 941]

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Unfortunately, I think some posters prefer the infamy of the continual contrary opinion to actually looking at subjects in a reasoned fashion.

The Neil Lennon DOB issue proves the point of slewed media/authority coverage perfectly. Why any Rangers fan would want to suggest Lennon isn't a bigot is beyond me?

I can sometimes be a bit contrary myself, you may have noticed..... At least it is my honest opinion though. I have never met/spoke to/encountered online a Rangers fan who doesn't think Lennon is a scumbag and a bigot.

He spat on a Rangers scarf and has publicly stated how much he hates our club, who would even begin to defend that......

Good luck getting an answer from that breed of fan.

They can never back up their opinion with anything worthy.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Unfortunately, I think some posters prefer the infamy of the continual contrary opinion to actually looking at subjects in a reasoned fashion.

The Neil Lennon DOB issue proves the point of slewed media/authority coverage perfectly. Why any Rangers fan would want to suggest Lennon isn't a bigot is beyond me?

I can sometimes be a bit contrary myself, you may have noticed..... At least it is my honest opinion though. I have never met/spoke to/encountered online a Rangers fan who doesn't think Lennon is a scumbag and a bigot.

He spat on a Rangers scarf and has publicly stated how much he hates our club, who would even begin to defend that......

Good luck getting an answer from that breed of fan.

They can never back up their opinion with anything worthy.

you shut it you tried to compare Martin O'neill and Kenny miller a few days ago.......

[Frankie 505]

I can sometimes be a bit contrary myself, you may have noticed..... At least it is my honest opinion though. I have never met/spoke to/encountered online a Rangers fan who doesn't think Lennon is a scumbag and a bigot.

He spat on a Rangers scarf and has publicly stated how much he hates our club, who would even begin to defend that......

As you know I enjoy the contrary opinion as it keeps us all balanced. I've been known to go against the grain myself on occasion...

Unfortunately, sometimes people are deliberately obtuse in that regard (from both sides of the debate) and that where problems occur.

[Gaffbear 4,174]

Sorry but i dont get the point in this post at all. Most religeons think that they have the right answer and are the right way. Im a Protestant (with a big P because i go to church and therfor not a plastic proddy) and obviously believe that the way we worship God is the right way... They all do. The Jewish faith are still waiting for the son of God and dont believe in Jesus Christ at all. This is surely a more damaging view on the Christian faith than a wee Nazi saying "you wont go to heaven unless your are a Roman Catholic" (at this point i would want to make sure that i do not sound like i have an issue with the Jewish faith..it was just an example). I would like to know where the quote comes from where the Pope says this???

I say each to their own. Let them worship how they want. I for one dont want to spend my life feeling guilty 24/7 like they do.... The whole asking a man(not God) for forgiveness goes against what the Bible suggests. Only God has the right to judge a person. I will never come out and slag an entire religeon when they worship God. That is what it is all about. As for the Bigot comments. I for one have never been called a bigot because i am a Protestant. I have been called a Bigot because Rangers fans have got a reputation of being so. The media's demonisation of our club and supporters have caused this...not some wee guy in Rome. Its the Political powers that are in office that are causing this. Maybe as suporters we should start using our votes to change this...stop voting Labour/ SNP, stop buying the red tops....i dont know...whatever can be done to show our anger at the constant fouling of our name

PLASTIC PRODDY????

I'm Protestant and i believe in God but i don't need to sit in a concrete building over decorated and pray with others just because that's the way i'm told...

I'll be a protestant in my own time not when you tell me.....Protestantism is not about going to church and if your Protestant then you should know this..i doubt your credentials sometimes.

At which point in this point did i mention you singularly?

Don't try and split hairs now..

[Bluedell 14]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

You can argue about the OO with people who know more about it than me, but it's not relevant to the song itself.

You stated that it was a "bigoted chant". It's not, and it's attitudes like yours that cause more harm than good by muddying the waters by bringing non-issues into the argument, and make it more difficult for us to focus on the real problem areas.

[Gaffbear 4,174]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

Your a fuckin bunnet if you actually think that

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

I will reply to this post to cover a number of previous posts:

1. THis is the bears den - its meant to be about Rangers - they are a football team. Its is on a forum called Rangersmedia - for Rangers fans. It is not a religious organisation - why not go and start a protestant medai forum and post all your debates about the degeneration and erosion or that protestant way of life on there? - Oh yes that right - NO ONE WOULD GO THERE! so to try to try to garner some support for these causes it suits those who want to defend that cause to have it associated with Rangers as that is the only way thye can hope to have an audience!

2. The reason I reply to these posts is that I have recognised that Rangers have to change to survive - after all we were a great football team before Celtic were even formed and before we adopted a protestant alligence. It is my belief that it is to our detrimment to keep these asscoiations going - society is changing and so must we - that is my opinion - but its seems that many who want 'free speech' onn here for their causes would liike to deny me this right. I care about the direction this club goes in and my opinion may be different from 'some ' others but its an opinion I am and will debate. Religion and Politics have no place in football! - its simple. This is the Bears Den abot Rangers for Rangers fans - so I think we should keep it that way and debate other issues elsewhere.

3. I note that as Frankie feels challenged in debate he always resorts to twisting information. I also note Frankie says we should be open to debate - after trying to get me to stop posting because my views are disingineous !! LOL and he says I dont get Irony!!

4. Rangers is simple for me - its about the Football - trying to drag it back where in time where the only 'real' supporter is a Protestant-Unionist Loyalist is detrimental to the clubs future - that is my opinion but one i am happy to defend.

1. I've already explained why this topic is relevant to Rangers. It contains much interesting discussion about the club and is completely relevant to it. It has many replies and dozens of people viewing it throughout the time it has been posted with only you wanting it moved. I've already asked you politely to refrain from taking the thread off-topic in this way. Please contact admin directly by pm/email if you feel the rules are being breached with regard to thread content.

2. As has been posted many times (and as you have ignored many times) Rangers have already changed to our benefit and continue to do so. No-one is suggesting otherwise - except when the requested changes are not required. No-one is denying you the right to express your opinion either. However, I'm not sure how you profess to do that given you don't want these subjects discussed with regard to Rangers? Make up your mind.

3. I don't feel challenged by you at all and I certainly haven't twisted anything. Please show me where I have though if I'm wrong. The only person that appears challenged is you - given your earlier bad language, attempted slurs and confused demands. Neither have I tried to stop you posting. I've merely asked you to keep your opinions on topic and refrain from laughable inferences that I am some sort of bigot.

4. I don't see many people (if any) suggesting to be a real Rangers supporter one has to be Protestant or Loyalist. That would be a ludicrous position to take and one I've challenged many times myself if I ever see it. Unfortunately I think, in you haste to be offended by the thread content, you actually missed many of the interesting (and respectfully opposing) points being raised within.

I suggest you go back, read through all the posts, then come back with something a bit more meaningful that the petty, confused rant above.

1. To repeat - I never asked for it to be removed - I asked why it is in this forum - this forum is meant to be about Rangers - I questioned and do question its validity wrt to Rangers. It has none but its seems that you dont want to have a debate about how this forum is used - now if I can have a post moved for stating that football has gone crazy wrt to transfer fees because of Ronaldo's £80M transfer (which seemed harsh!) then I am entitled to ask about the relevancy of this thread? (but to question the relevancy gets me compared to Spiers!).

2. I have not ignored that Rangers have changes - I have embraced it and encourage it - and would like to see more change - something you try to belitle by sayin 'except when change isn't needed'

3. I may ramble but it is better than the Obscuration you use in your long rambling replies. Seems you can take the piss (sorry if that swear word offends you) but get all high and mighty when the shoe is on the other foot.

ya later have to go watch daughter play football!

[Poetry_In_Blue 1,043]

Simply put, this thread has been deemed relevant enough to be discussed in the Bear's Den, therefore it will remain in the Bear's Den, leave it at that and move on.

[Bluedell 14]

So you complain about some of our loyalist songs but you don't have a problem with Let the People Sing? If you are only going to find offence about stuff that our fans do then no wonder you don't believe that it isn't orchestrated. You state that we have been penalised but nothing is done about other teams. The celtic away support were consistent in their pro-IRA chants last year, and the Nacho Novo song went by with hardly a whimper.

Given that Rangers have been criticised for playing Rule Britannia and flying the Union Flag (3 separate journalists referred to Nuremburg) but there is not anything on the other side, I fail to see how it is any sort of jump in logic. I've given you examples of where Celtic as a club embrace republicanism and condone pro-IRA banners without any degree of mention in the press and yet we have MSPs raising questions about a song that Rangers fans sing.

You have come up with a wee tosser like Anzi as your defence. Well I'll see you Anzi and raise you William Walls. However I don't believe one-off cases of individual supporters are really the point here.

The Tom Williams CSC is named after the guy below, and Celtic do not have a problem with the name and allow them to continue to operate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Williams_(Irish_Republican)

The evidence is clear, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to end up arguing about specific songs, neither the two you mentioned bother me particularly I had to look up the words for the second one as it is a new one to me and I'm struggling to find offence, sorry. I don't know who or what 'Anzi' is. Thanks for the Tom Williams link, I agree Celtc should have to explain themselves on that.

Right, so say I'm wrong and this is indeed an orchestrated attack. Who is behind this attack, how many are there, what is their end game, who runs it, do the meet up, do they have a name? I'm being serious, what you're suggesting is a level of organisation is involved and I'm struggling with that concept.

You seemed to want evidence and when it's given to you, you now want to ignore it. (BTW Anzi's the guy with the flag that you mentioned)

It's fairly obvious who some of the people are who have been working against the club. As for your other questions, nobody has suggested that there is any sort of formal organisation. If you want more details, then I suggest you log onto some celtic sites. I don't go on myself, but they are apparently primed and ready to bombard UEFA again if we sing a song that they take offence to. The usual suspects in the media (radio and written) will also be ready to give their support, and expect more questions and statements from MSPs.

You can, of course, dismiss this as paranoia, but when it happens year-in, year-out, it's fairly clear what is happening.

[brissybear 50]

MON and Neil Lennon played for N.I.

Real bigots would never pull the green of NI on.

These threads are getting depressing, our obsession with all things Timmy has reached record levels. This faux war against a few journos and the odd insignificant person taht no-one has ever heard of is getting ridiculous.

To the OP, no you are not a bigot, a drama queen perhaps, but not a bigot.

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Whos defending them "token"?

Im stating a fact and who is "laying into" Rangers fans??

Trying to deflect some heat away from yourself???

Both of them played for NI. Would Gerry Adams or Martin McGuiness do the same??

They are not in the same equation, they are the least of our worries.

[Frankie 505]

1. To repeat - I never asked for it to be removed - I asked why it is in this forum - this forum is meant to be about Rangers - I questioned and do question its validity wrt to Rangers. It has none but its seems that you dont want to have a debate about how this forum is used - now if I can have a post moved for stating that football has gone crazy wrt to transfer fees because of Ronaldo's £80M transfer (which seemed harsh!) then I am entitled to ask about the relevancy of this thread? (but to question the relevancy gets me compared to Spiers!).

2. I have not ignored that Rangers have changes - I have embraced it and encourage it - and would like to see more change - something you try to belitle by sayin 'except when change isn't needed'

3. I may ramble but it is better than the Obscuration you use in your long rambling replies. Seems you can take the piss (sorry if that swear word offends you) but get all high and mighty when the shoe is on the other foot.

ya later have to go watch daughter play football!

1. So posting "time for the mods to move these threads elsewhere on the board" isn't asking for this thread to be moved? I think you're a wee bit confused BP9 - especially when one examines the dozens of posts talking about Rangers within this thread. Now, please take concerns about forum content to admin and stop spoiling threads which people are genuinely interested in.

2. Again, you seem confused. I said you have ignored the points why I suggest that - on occasion - we don't always need to change just because others suggest we need to. That is why we have such threads to debate whether such change is required. And that is why they are always so popular because it is an interesting subject relevant to our club.

3. Where have I taken the p!ss? I compared your posting style to that of Spiers which is a fair comparison. And I'm not offended by swear-words - I just feel when people resort to them they feel challenged as I plainly wrote. Just like when they resort to unfounded personal accusations and posting petulantly with large fonts. As you have done because you are struggling to get your point across.

4. Amongst all this irrelevant nonsense I find no answer to your earlier accusations about myself twisting points (where?), myself being a bigot (where?) and people are suggesting one must be a Protestant/Loyalist to be a real bear (where?). It is this kind of deflection that does indeed show you to be disingenuous in your arguments.

Sorry if this post is a bit long for you but considering your confusion with regard to most of the above, I felt it better to take my time and go through things slowly for you point by point.

[RM Monitor And Standards Officer 112,912]

someone upload the video of the whole NI team singing the sash when sir MON played for them in the dressing room at the world cup in 82 i think it was

[brissybear 50]

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Unfortunately, I think some posters prefer the infamy of the continual contrary opinion to actually looking at subjects in a reasoned fashion.

The Neil Lennon DOB issue proves the point of slewed media/authority coverage perfectly. Why any Rangers fan would want to suggest Lennon isn't a bigot is beyond me?

I can sometimes be a bit contrary myself, you may have noticed..... At least it is my honest opinion though. I have never met/spoke to/encountered online a Rangers fan who doesn't think Lennon is a scumbag and a bigot.

He spat on a Rangers scarf and has publicly stated how much he hates our club, who would even begin to defend that......

Good luck getting an answer from that breed of fan.

They can never back up their opinion with anything worthy.

you shut it you tried to compare Martin O'neill and Kenny miller a few days ago.......

I hate Lennon more than I hate McGeady and I know he hates us.. so what.. I hate them equally as much.

The fact is he played for NI, something that a large % of people from NI would never do.

There is a difference imo.

[AMMS 27]

Bluedell, with all due respect it was you who said it was orchestrated and that means a level of organisation is involved. If you feel that organisation is emanating from Celtc messageboards then that is fair enough and answers my question. However I also think it backs up my stance that this is not some conspiracy. If it is simply Celtc fans trying to get Rangers into trouble well that really isn’t anything new. I stopped visiting the Follow Follow messageboard because of the number times posters encouraged others to complain to somebody or other about something Celtc fans had done. This seems to be exactly what you are accusing them of doing. What’s good for the goose and all that.

Frankie/Bluedell et all, I still feel we are taking random events and seeing a pattern in them where none exists. I agree we have been dealt with harshly at times and agree we should stand up for ourselves when it happens, however, what seems to be happening is it is creating a siege mentality and leading to, in my opinion, the paranoia being shown in both the original posts. This is more dangerous to us than the apparent attacks on us. And if we condone this paranoia, which is what a lot are doing on this thread, we will simply legitimise it and it will escalate. We are not an oppressed minority, we are not a voiceless persecuted group, but we are starting to act like that, I used too slag Celtc for doing that when it was patently ridiculous they were nothing of the sort. We’re the biggest club in the country, one of the biggest in the world. Lets start acting like that.