Am I a Bigot?

[Frankie 505]

Ah the old Rangers=Protestant=bigot claim. Doing the work of the dark side for them, I see.

I must admit it always make me laugh to see people like Spiers and BP9 preach about tolerance yet complain vociferously when people have a different outlook to supporting the club to them.

Irony doesn't seem to breach their suits of politically correct armour in the same way meaningless chants do.

Of course Rangers and our support should always be open to challenge about how we operate but we're well within our rights to refute that challenge and stand our ground when such challenges are disingenuous.

I say again Rangers are one of the world's most inclusive institutions - open to all. The flying of a few Union flags, the singing of a few historic chants and the lampooning of our footballing rivals doesn't change that absolute and irrefutable fact.

[Tumshie 205]

The Catholic Church is without doubt the most oppresive organisation in the Western world. On Earth it's probably second only to the Communist Party in China.

No women or gay priests, the unhealthy, un-natural abstience of priests, their apartheid schooling and their claims of 'persecution' is frankly laughable and actually pretty disturbing.

I'm a great believer that you should be able to practice any religion you wish as long as it is done in your own time and you don't push your beliefs on anyone else. That's why the Catholic Church really annoys me

Every single moral story in the papers we have got Cardinal this and Archbishop that telling Scotland, a country more than 70% non-Catholic how to live our lives. THEY DON'T SPEAK FOR US

They should stick to sorting out their own affairs such as the problem of Paedo Priests, their failure to hand out condoms in Africa which is leading to the death of millions of Catholics from AIDS and their falling Chapel attendances.

For the Catholic Church to take the moral high ground is frankly laughable. This is the same faith which were quite happy to stand by and let Fascism and Nazism murder millions of innocent people in the 30's and 40's as long as the Vatican was safe. They still have millions of Nazi gold stashed away.

Thank God for John Knox and the Reformation. Look at the difference between Scotland and Ireland around that time. On the one hand one nation is starving to death and being held down by a repressive Church, the other inventing, improving and becoming a vibrant nation where everyone had the opportunity because everyone had an education.

People can call me a bigot if they want. If that's what I am then, frankly so be it, but that's my opinion

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,684]

We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better.

[fannybaaz 10]

Great read. Great post.

[yellowcross 5]

....Errrr and what the fk has this all to do with Rangers - I like a decent debate on how much we should be atttached to Unionist/Protestant causes (we shouldn't be - my opinion) but at least they are in the context of Rangers - this is just a rant that has got fk all to do with Football or Rangers - why is it in the Bears Den? - which seems to be getting more and more of these posts - time for the mods to move these threads elsewhere on the board!

BP9: I think you are being harsh here. It was a good post imo and you could tell it came straight from the heart. The OP is a pensioner who loves Rangers and is entitled to his opinion. I generally respect your opinions and the way you usually go about expressing them (polite) but in this instance I think you are being harsh/unfair on the OP.

[royalbluebell 38]

We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better.

That's it in a nutshell

[yellowcross 5]

It also strikes me Frankie that you do as much to keep the bonds between bigotry and Rangers going as you do as much as anyone to keep the linkage alive! You like your linkage as it is your cause!

That is an out of order post BP9 and totally uncalled for imho. Frankie is one of the fairest/most diplomatic posters on here imo and your post is just rude/disrespectful.

[royalbluebell 38]

It also strikes me Frankie that you do as much to keep the bonds between bigotry and Rangers going as you do as much as anyone to keep the linkage alive! You like your linkage as it is your cause!

That is an out of order post BP9 and totally uncalled for imho. Frankie is one of the fairest/most diplomatic posters on here imo and your post is just rude/disrespectful.

I agree.....it is disrespectful. Frankie is well respected on here as is Minstral who also always seems to be a target for BP9!!

[AMMS 27]

I read this thread last night and thought I’d give it a miss, my presence tends to bring more heat than light. But it’s quiet at work just now so fuck it, no doubt by the end of this some of you will be wishing I had.

Firslty I’ve no idea if the OP is a bigot or not but I get that his question is rhetorical. What puzzles me about his post and some of the others we’ve had on the D’art thread too is the persecution complex he and others seem to have. This baffles me. I travel a bit with work, nothing too exotic but it brings me into contact with many different types of people. Often football will come up and I’m always amused by their reactions to finding out I’m a Rangers fan.

Europeans tend not to be surprised, pretty much Rangers and Celtc are the only teams they’ve heard of in Scotland. Some have a very basic grasp of the religious/social thing but often they don’t know which team is which. They are happy to talk football.

Most Americans have little clue, some still see ‘UK soccer’ as some sort of mid 80s riotathon, some as a sport played everywhere that they have little interest in. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.

So really it is only when I meet other British or Irish people that any supposed baggage I might have becomes relevant.

The level of ignorance many English fans have has stopped surprising me now. Most simply don’t care about Scottish football. The fact that most of us could name every player in the top four teams in England is not reciprocated in my experience. Some feign an interest, they might have a ‘Scottish club’ often for bizarre reasons, sometimes simply because they like the colour of the strip. Some bring up the religious/cultural aspect of Rangers, I’m comfortable with that.

Meeting Irish people is a real eye-opener. I like the Irish, I find them welcoming and usually good company. Most of the men have a deep love of football and are more than happy to talk to you about it. Some have a preconceived idea that Rangers are bad and Celtc good, fair enough, I suppose to them it might well look that way. However almost all of them support quite passionately an English team and rarely give Scottish football much thought. The iconography associated with Rangers fans does, too them, resemble a lot of the symbols associated with the extreme end of Loyalism in the Northern Ireland and some make a judgement on that. However I find that engaging with them, pointing out that the flags and symbols are also used by not only the law abiding democratically elected majority in Northern Ireland but also right across the UK and by demonstrating to them that I fit many stereotypes people may have about Rangers fans but I’m not card carrying member of the UDA speaks volumes.

Now meeting Scots is the most difficult. They’ve already made up their mind. But again most people you meet are pretty normal, decent human beings. Sometimes they support a different football team, sometimes they support ‘them’. Most of the time our ‘talk’ is good natured but sometimes it gets a bit sharp and people fall back on stereotypes. Fine, challenge them. If you are a decent human being you’ve nothing to worry about and they’ll soon see that. But sometimes we do need to take a step back and look at ourselves. Is our own behaviour always exemplary, do we ever still sing songs that are just frankly wrong, do we still see actions among ourselves that might bring us into disrepute? If we’re honest we all know the answer.

I have no idea if Blue Cyclops is a bigot, he probably isn’t, he’s probably a pretty normal run-of-the-mill guy like the rest of us. But this self-pity, this persecution complex, this ‘poor me’ routine that has crept into our support is troubling. We can sit in our own shite and complain that no one else seems to be sitting in shite or we can clean it up and let others worry about themselves. If we clean up our own shite we’ll be in a far stronger position to respond to ‘the enemies’ when they say we smell.

[RFC55 109,720]

"The iconography associated with Rangers fans does, too them, resemble a lot of the symbols associated with the extreme end of Loyalism in the Northern Ireland and some make a judgement on that. However I find that engaging with them, pointing out that the flags and symbols are also used by not only the law abiding democratically elected majority in Northern Ireland but also right across the UK and by demonstrating to them that I fit many stereotypes people may have about Rangers fans but I’m not card carrying member of the UDA speaks volumes."

Why would you need to do this though i dont get it! why explain to the irish and why say the extreme end of loyalism? we didnt try and blow Britain up so why explain? these people most obviously only see one end of the reporting if thats the way they feel! there will always be the ignorant among us but i for one dont realy care anymore! im proud to be a british protestant, supporting the Rangers who once shared many of the same values.

[bombaybadboy08 15,660]

We can sit in our own shite and complain that no one else seems to be sitting in shite or we can clean it up and let others worry about themselves. If we clean up our own shite we’ll be in a far stronger position to respond to ‘the enemies’ when they say we smell.

What shite would that be? Please not the bollocks about words to songs.

Actually a pretty good post up until the end then that starts

[Frankie 505]

I read this thread last night and thought I’d give it a miss, my presence tends to bring more heat than light. But it’s quiet at work just now so fuck it, no doubt by the end of this some of you will be wishing I had.

Firslty I’ve no idea if the OP is a bigot or not but I get that his question is rhetorical. What puzzles me about his post and some of the others we’ve had on the D’art thread too is the persecution complex he and others seem to have. This baffles me. I travel a bit with work, nothing too exotic but it brings me into contact with many different types of people. Often football will come up and I’m always amused by their reactions to finding out I’m a Rangers fan.

Europeans tend not to be surprised, pretty much Rangers and Celtc are the only teams they’ve heard of in Scotland. Some have a very basic grasp of the religious/social thing but often they don’t know which team is which. They are happy to talk football.

Most Americans have little clue, some still see ‘UK soccer’ as some sort of mid 80s riotathon, some as a sport played everywhere that they have little interest in. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.

So really it is only when I meet other British or Irish people that any supposed baggage I might have becomes relevant.

The level of ignorance many English fans have has stopped surprising me now. Most simply don’t care about Scottish football. The fact that most of us could name every player in the top four teams in England is not reciprocated in my experience. Some feign an interest, they might have a ‘Scottish club’ often for bizarre reasons, sometimes simply because they like the colour of the strip. Some bring up the religious/cultural aspect of Rangers, I’m comfortable with that.

Meeting Irish people is a real eye-opener. I like the Irish, I find them welcoming and usually good company. Most of the men have a deep love of football and are more than happy to talk to you about it. Some have a preconceived idea that Rangers are bad and Celtc good, fair enough, I suppose to them it might well look that way. However almost all of them support quite passionately an English team and rarely give Scottish football much thought. The iconography associated with Rangers fans does, too them, resemble a lot of the symbols associated with the extreme end of Loyalism in the Northern Ireland and some make a judgement on that. However I find that engaging with them, pointing out that the flags and symbols are also used by not only the law abiding democratically elected majority in Northern Ireland but also right across the UK and by demonstrating to them that I fit many stereotypes people may have about Rangers fans but I’m not card carrying member of the UDA speaks volumes.

Now meeting Scots is the most difficult. They’ve already made up their mind. But again most people you meet are pretty normal, decent human beings. Sometimes they support a different football team, sometimes they support ‘them’. Most of the time our ‘talk’ is good natured but sometimes it gets a bit sharp and people fall back on stereotypes. Fine, challenge them. If you are a decent human being you’ve nothing to worry about and they’ll soon see that. But sometimes we do need to take a step back and look at ourselves. Is our own behaviour always exemplary, do we ever still sing songs that are just frankly wrong, do we still see actions among ourselves that might bring us into disrepute? If we’re honest we all know the answer.

I have no idea if Blue Cyclops is a bigot, he probably isn’t, he’s probably a pretty normal run-of-the-mill guy like the rest of us. But this self-pity, this persecution complex, this ‘poor me’ routine that has crept into our support is troubling. We can sit in our own shite and complain that no one else seems to be sitting in shite or we can clean it up and let others worry about themselves. If we clean up our own shite we’ll be in a far stronger position to respond to ‘the enemies’ when they say we smell.

I'm sorry but I think we have faced down and cleaned up the challenges our club have.

The odd misguided supporter and controversial chant aside, we have nothing to be ashamed about nowadays when one examines the bigger picture.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't disagree with it all that much to be honest. There is a siege mentality amongst many fans that means attention placed upon us is often exaggerated.

However, as said in the other thread, that is somewhat understandable given we're the only club to be constantly scrutinised for alleged 'Unacceptable Conduct'. Like you attest, I don't think that it can be denied that nowadays - in Scotland at least - the stereotype of a Rangers supporter is that of a bigot.

Sure, some fans only have themselves to blame in that regard but when the rest of us receive the same distrust from strangers, it is easy to go on the defensive a bit too easily. By the same token, sometimes it isn't a bad thing to be a bit stubborn and defensive though.

However, again, as you suggest, the best way to rebuke such misconceptions is to challenge them directly. I think that's what we're doing here and in the other thread. We're capable of doing that and challenging ourselves as the last few years have shown.

[royalbluebell 38]

The persecution complex as you put it has been deliberately orchestrated by the media and other enemies of ours in this country. It is a direct result of our supporters and club being targetted unfairly.

How is it "fair enough" that Irish people think that Rangers are bad and celtic are good?

Do you not question why/how Rangers fans have become this negative stereotype?

You say we should challenge these attitudes, is this not what is happening in threads like this and D'Arts?

The last two paragraphs sum up why we can be our own worst enemy.

[CottonRunt 978]

We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better.

Then again BD i have a catholic workmate who says that this country was catholic way before it was protestant, he then argues thats Scotland was/is a catholic country, and us protestants are the ones who need to go home.

[British and Proud 0]

I see a number of posts replying to my original post. They are querying why this c**p is in the Bears Den and what has it to do with Rangers?

This post has only a passing reference to Rangers. On that point they are correct, but then the same question must be asked of Keevins, Spiers, Anna Smith et. al,.

Why are they conducting an orchestrated campaign against Rangers ? What have their articles to do with Rangers? or football?

If ,in their "holier than thou" world, they find Rangers songs, flags banners etc,. to be offensive then they are entitled to write articles condeming them. BUT, in the interests of fair play and natural justice etc,. should they not be writting articles condeming offensive songs etc, from ALL sources?

That was the point of the original post. I am a bigot1 Why? Because I follow Rangers?

Yes, thers are sectarian bigots who follow Rangers. There are also (probably) bigots who follow Scunthorpe, Barcelona, Bayer Leverkusen, Harlem Globetrotters etc,. Why do these people not write about these organisations? Why the orchestrated campaign only against Rangers? Are Rangers supporters the only bigots in UK? Even if Rangers are sectarian bigots is sectarianism the greatest crime against nature? Sectarianism is WRONG! It should not EXIST! It should be ELIMINATED!

There is no dispute about that. But given the media feeding frenzy against Rangers and sectarianism

my post raises the issue of others hypocrisy. Is sectarianism the greatest evil facing mankind today?

Greater than Paedophilia?

Greater than Genocide?

Greater than Mass murder?

Greater than anti-Semitism?

All these things have been perpatrated by the very organisations that Rangers critics worship with such faithfull devotion. That is the point in this thread. My original post was a reaction to D,As post re:- isolation not being an option.

For years USA practised isolationism. It did not save them form the fanatics on 9/11

I do not sing the sash, Up to our knees etc,. But me and mine( including you) are under attack from people with a hidden agenda.

Just like most of the people on here, I simply want to be left alone to follow my team and live my life as i see fit. No Catholic, Jew ect,. has anything to fear from me.

I want them to give me the same respect.

We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better.

BD and BC

If you are a decent human being you’ve nothing to worry about and they’ll soon see that

In my experiences, rationality doesn't exist in these vermin who have been talked about in the OP's post. They'll tar every Protestant and/or Rangers fans with the same brush.

[dummiesoot 16,049]

This thread and D'Art's sum things up nicely for me, what I get is that in many countries (not arab or China) the minority has the loudest voice and claim victimisation card, in years gone by this was certainly true in some areas of life within Scotland, the Do Gooders play on this, I think they "forget" (choose to perhaps?) that times have moved on including us big bad Protestants (lapsed in my case - now athiest) and the football teams we support.

As an unpopular comedian once said "there is no place for a white anglo-saxon 'bigot' in this country anymore."

Free speech is only available to those in the minority because if you stop them you become a bigot and a racist by todays definitions.

[J_RFC87 761]

The last two paragraphs sum up why we can be our own worst enemy.

Last two paragraphs of the opening post? I think he's just highlighting there is proven evil amongst the ranks of the Catholic Church, whereas we're demonisied for our beliefs. Action speaks louder than words?

[royalbluebell 38]

The last two paragraphs sum up why we can be our own worst enemy.

Last two paragraphs of the opening post? I think he's just highlighting there is proven evil amongst the ranks of the Catholic Church, whereas we're demonisied for our beliefs. Action speaks louder than words?

No not the OP, AMMS saying we need to clean up our act!

[AMMS 27]

"The iconography associated with Rangers fans does, too them, resemble a lot of the symbols associated with the extreme end of Loyalism in the Northern Ireland and some make a judgement on that. However I find that engaging with them, pointing out that the flags and symbols are also used by not only the law abiding democratically elected majority in Northern Ireland but also right across the UK and by demonstrating to them that I fit many stereotypes people may have about Rangers fans but I’m not card carrying member of the UDA speaks volumes."

Why would you need to do this though i dont get it! why explain to the irish and why say the extreme end of loyalism? we didnt try and blow Britain up so why explain? these people most obviously only see one end of the reporting if thats the way they feel! there will always be the ignorant among us but i for one dont realy care anymore! im proud to be a british protestant, supporting the Rangers who once shared many of the same values.

I'd have thought the 'extreme end' was pretty self evident. Of course they only see one end of the reporting. I'd say you should still care.

[AMMS 27]

We can sit in our own shite and complain that no one else seems to be sitting in shite or we can clean it up and let others worry about themselves. If we clean up our own shite we’ll be in a far stronger position to respond to ‘the enemies’ when they say we smell.

What shite would that be? Please not the bollocks about words to songs.

Actually a pretty good post up until the end then that starts

Fair enough.

[AMMS 27]

I'm sorry but I think we have faced down and cleaned up the challenges our club have.

The odd misguided supporter and controversial chant aside, we have nothing to be ashamed about nowadays when one examines the bigger picture.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't disagree with it all that much to be honest. There is a siege mentality amongst many fans that means attention placed upon us is often exaggerated.

However, as said in the other thread, that is somewhat understandable given we're the only club to be constantly scrutinised for alleged 'Unacceptable Conduct'. Like you attest, I don't think that it can be denied that nowadays - in Scotland at least - the stereotype of a Rangers supporter is that of a bigot.

Sure, some fans only have themselves to blame in that regard but when the rest of us receive the same distrust from strangers, it is easy to go on the defensive a bit too easily. By the same token, sometimes it isn't a bad thing to be a bit stubborn and defensive though.

However, again, as you suggest, the best way to rebuke such misconceptions is to challenge them directly. I think that's what we're doing here and in the other thread. We're capable of doing that and challenging ourselves as the last few years have shown.

I think we've done a lot but still have a bit more to do.

I don't think the siege mentality is understandable but I'm going over old ground here, we'll agree to differ.

As long as some continue to perpetuate the stereotype we'll all struggle to shake it off.

[Frankie 505]

I think we've done a lot but still have a bit more to do.

As long as some continue to perpetuate the stereotype we'll all struggle to shake it off.

OK, what more have we to do?

And, with respect, I still don't think I've seen you explain why we're the only club under scrutiny? If you can do that, perhaps I may be able to appreciate why you don't think a seige mentality is understandable.

[AMMS 27]

The persecution complex as you put it has been deliberately orchestrated by the media and other enemies of ours in this country. It is a direct result of our supporters and club being targetted unfairly.

How is it "fair enough" that Irish people think that Rangers are bad and celtic are good?

Do you not question why/how Rangers fans have become this negative stereotype?

You say we should challenge these attitudes, is this not what is happening in threads like this and D'Arts?

The last two paragraphs sum up why we can be our own worst enemy.

As Frankie and I have been discussing recently I disagree, I don't think it is orchestrated and I think we are in danger of using it as a crutch.

My wording on 'good and bad' is clumsy. I mean they might see an natural affinity to them rather than us, no more than that.

I do challenge it, i kind of hoped that might have come through in my post.

I don't think it is what's happening in these threads no. I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

I'm not sure what you mean about the last two paragraphs.

[royalbluebell 38]

I'm sorry but I think we have faced down and cleaned up the challenges our club have.

The odd misguided supporter and controversial chant aside, we have nothing to be ashamed about nowadays when one examines the bigger picture.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't disagree with it all that much to be honest. There is a siege mentality amongst many fans that means attention placed upon us is often exaggerated.

However, as said in the other thread, that is somewhat understandable given we're the only club to be constantly scrutinised for alleged 'Unacceptable Conduct'. Like you attest, I don't think that it can be denied that nowadays - in Scotland at least - the stereotype of a Rangers supporter is that of a bigot.

Sure, some fans only have themselves to blame in that regard but when the rest of us receive the same distrust from strangers, it is easy to go on the defensive a bit too easily. By the same token, sometimes it isn't a bad thing to be a bit stubborn and defensive though.

However, again, as you suggest, the best way to rebuke such misconceptions is to challenge them directly. I think that's what we're doing here and in the other thread. We're capable of doing that and challenging ourselves as the last few years have shown.

I think we've done a lot but still have a bit more to do.

I don't think the siege mentality is understandable but I'm going over old ground here, we'll agree to differ.

As long as some continue to perpetuate the stereotype we'll all struggle to shake it off.

IMO you are helping to perpetuate the stereotype by agreeing with our accusers that we have a problem.

[royalbluebell 38]

The persecution complex as you put it has been deliberately orchestrated by the media and other enemies of ours in this country. It is a direct result of our supporters and club being targetted unfairly.

How is it "fair enough" that Irish people think that Rangers are bad and celtic are good?

Do you not question why/how Rangers fans have become this negative stereotype?

You say we should challenge these attitudes, is this not what is happening in threads like this and D'Arts?

The last two paragraphs sum up why we can be our own worst enemy.

As Frankie and I have been discussing recently I disagree, I don't think it is orchestrated and I think we are in danger of using it as a crutch.

My wording on 'good and bad' is clumsy. I mean they might see an natural affinity to them rather than us, no more than that.

I do challenge it, i kind of hoped that might have come through in my post.

I don't think it is what's happening in these threads no. I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

I'm not sure what you mean about the last two paragraphs.

I think you are being naive if you think it is not orchestrated.

The points are based on fact it's not paranoia.

In one paragraph you are implying we have a problem and in the other you are stating that we are sitting in shite and need to clean up our act.