When does an un-natural position become a natural position?

[papaguy51 912]

Now I keep hearing that Lafferty at left mid isn't natural, and up until now I've accepted that.

But looking back, I have a few issues with it. He played out there for over two years at Burnley, and he's played there almost exclusively for us. With this in mind, is he still a striker? In general, he's looked so poor up front that I'm struggling to see that as well.

Take Broadfoot as well. He started off as a CB, but has played right back for about 18 months now and rarely does anyone even consider him to be a CB any more. It only took Papac a year at LB to be considered as natural for that position, instead of his supposedly natural one at CB.

What about Novo? Is he still a striker, or has he changed to a fleet-footed winger, capable of beating players at will?

It's one of those things that's always perplexed me, moreso since Smith came back and moved people around as he does.

[mccoist355 4]

The main problem with Lafferty has nothing to do with position.

It's that despite being 6ft 7 or whatever, he's shite in the air.

[The Hammer 11 2,712]

When you get good at it and play like you should in that position

[mccoist355 4]

Regarding natural position - that's just the position a player plays best in.

[papaguy51 912]

Its only an un-natural position when Walter plays them there and we think they're shit.

I just think that most British based players have a natural position.

We don't have the Ajax or Barcelona style youth systems (or indeed any youth system blessed with the mind of Johan Cruyff) where every player spends time in every position on the park, instead they're all brought up having found what we're told is their 'natural position' by 16-18.

So I'm wondering when fans think it changes and why

[TexasGers 96]

Lafferty played on the left side of a front 3 at Burnley, did he not? At the end of last season (especially at Tannadice), it looked like he was playing that same position and he actually put in a fair few good performances. Whenever he's played in a flat 4-4-2, more often than not he looks useless and the game passes him by.

[Strayk9 3]

I think a lot of it is to do with when it changes in a players head. That is to say, they get over the mental block of thinking they can only play well in one position.

[bluepeter 5,627]

Ooooh, interesting...

I think Lafferty is still the player he was, watch him v Poland and he had a great game. No matter how many times Smith plays him at LM, he'll never be a natural in that position. He's struggled for us wherever he's been, to be honest. There must be something of a confidence issue there, he's a better player than what we've seen.

Broadfoot is trickier. I've never seen him as a centre half, to be honest. The odd time he has played there for us he has looked completely lost. Having only really seen him as a right back, I think of that as his "natural" position. He's doing alright, so I'm happy to leave him there. He struggled a bit against an up-for-it McGayday yesterday, but it's only his 3rd (?) game back, so benefit of the doubt.

Papac I still don't think is a natural left back, although he has settled well. His positioning gives him away at times, but I'm a fan so I'll go easy.

As for Novo, he's never played as an out-and-out striker for us. He's always been a natural impact player to me, regardless of where he has played. He comes on and nips at people's ankles, wins balls, gets in about the opposition and causes problems. Oh, and scores important goals.

In summary, I don't know! I think people get labelled, but then I do believe people are forced to play positions which are unfamiliar to them and it doesn't work.

I'm surprised you didn't mention Davis, there are times he has played very well on the right of midfield. I'd say he's as much of a case in point as Lafferty, for example. In fact, he's shown much more on the right than Lafferty has on the left.

[Jimfanciesthedude 25,246]

it can never be a natural position unless you are young enough to learn it properly without any other trained position affecting your judgement

broadfoot, papac, and novo havent became naturally good at it imo, they have adapted extremely well to an extent they are our best options in they positions, the things that helped this is certain skills they have, i.e both broadfoot and papac can defend better than smith and whittaker, and novo has pace and energy to run up and down the wing all day

whats not helping lafferty is the fact he hasnt had a run of games in ANY position, he has been LM, RM and CF at least for the club so far, but never had a decent run of games in that position

papac and broadfoot would be fucking murder at fullback if they didnt have nearly 150 + games between them in the positions they have now

give lafferty a full season run in a certain position and im sure he'll be a different player, and a better one

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

When does an un-natural position become a natural position?

When ye stick it up her arse

[Creampuff 22,630]

A natural position in one in which a player is most comfortably played.

Unless it's by Smith's definition of "Left Mid".

[colin 18]

Something like Walter playing Shagger as a striker or Novo as a keeper, you never know with our small and injury riddled sqaud

[The Hammer 11 2,712]

Its only an un-natural position when Walter plays them there and we think they're shit.

I just think that most British based players have a natural position.

We don't have the Ajax or Barcelona style youth systems (or indeed any youth system blessed with the mind of Johan Cruyff) where every player spends time in every position on the park, instead they're all brought up having found what we're told is their 'natural position' by 16-18.

So I'm wondering when fans think it changes and why

The Dutch Total football how i'd love us to be doing that

[Mean_Gene_Okerlund 8]

It can only become a natural position if you have the skills and attributes required to do the job in that position. I dare say Bougherra could quite easily settle into a defensive midfield role.... but even if McGregor played on the left wing for 3 years, it wouldn't ever come naturally to him.

[Shearer 124]

Now I keep hearing that Lafferty at left mid isn't natural, and up until now I've accepted that.

But looking back, I have a few issues with it. He played out there for over two years at Burnley, and he's played there almost exclusively for us. With this in mind, is he still a striker? In general, he's looked so poor up front that I'm struggling to see that as well.

Take Broadfoot as well. He started off as a CB, but has played right back for about 18 months now and rarely does anyone even consider him to be a CB any more. It only took Papac a year at LB to be considered as natural for that position, instead of his supposedly natural one at CB.

What about Novo? Is he still a striker, or has he changed to a fleet-footed winger, capable of beating players at will?

It's one of those things that's always perplexed me, moreso since Smith came back and moved people around as he does.

He did play there for Burnley, however it was generally down to that fact that he was such a promising talent that they wanted to give him games. They did however at the time have a decent strike force so Lafferty was played out of position on the left wing due to them being short of a winger.

I really don't think we have seen enough of Lafferty as a striker to judge him. What he needs is to get a game upfront in the same 442 that has worked so well for Boyd and Miller. He has shown for Northern Ireland that he can do it, I just don't think he has been given the chance to play a run of games in any one role. He was looking good at the end of last season and I believe that he will come good.

Its a bit like Fleck, we know that left wing isn't his natural position but he is played there to get experience. Sometimes when you are young you need to do a job that isn't natural to you simply because there are better and more experienced players in front of you. He won't always look great but being involved in the team in some capacity should hopefully help his development. In the future however I hope to see Fleck nailing down a position, otherwise he could end up like Alan Smith

I believe playing different roles can be beneficial to a player, it allows them to work on areas of there game that previously would have been missing. All of our players should be confident with a ball at their feet no matter what position they play. We should be able to get back and cover for our team mates if they are out of position. Some players like Boyd however will never be suited to any role other than a striker, he has added a lot to his game but playing him on the wing would be terrible.

With Broadfoot he had played a few different roles for Saint Mirren. He had already played as a wing back in a few games for them (in one game against us) before he joined us, I think it was there that Walter Smith had identified him as being an option as a fullback. Personally I don't think he is good enough at defending to be a centre back, he backs off too much and is easily turned however he can get away with a lot more as a full back and he also has the energy to run up and down the wings and gives wingers less room than Whittaker.

With Sasa Papac we signed him as centre back who could also play left back. He played left back in his first game for us against Hibs. It however became obvious that he wasn't capable of being a centre back in the Scottish game due to his lack of aerial ability. He did however still look good at left back due to being confident on the ball and being a decent tackler.

I think some players are just better at adapting to other positions. You could literally play Steven Davis anywhere on the park and he would do a job for you, he has the ability and knowledge of the game to do so but the same can't be said for many other players. Sometimes your talents simply don't translate to other positions and you have to accept your limitations. Broadfoot is one player who has worked at what he had to become a better player and being played out of his natural position turned out to be very beneficial for him.

Novo is a player who had all the tools to be a winger, he has now been given the space to use them with our recent change of system. With two wingers playing it lets us spread the game out and gives Novo space to run with the ball that he was not previously given. We have a lot more movement which has made our front 2 and our wingers more time and space to hurt teams. He is a player who much like DMB, Miller and Boyd has improved due to playing a system that works to their strengths.

Larsson was played behind the strikers at the start of his Celtic career, he then went on to be a brilliant striker for them. Some players take longer to find a natural position and sometimes being made to adapt to a new position can end up changing a players natural position to something that is actually more suited to them. Each player is different and sometimes it takes a manager thinking outside the box to get the best out of a player.

Interesting topic papa

[papaguy51 912]

This is an interesting reply SL

There's just so many times it's used as a defence for some, and a criticism for others.

It's certainly a grey area, in my eyes at least.

[Mikhailichenko 90]

Interesting one Papa. Natural position, I would have to say reverse cowgirl

[Guest therabbitt]

I've been writing a blog yesterday and today that is in part at least linked to this topic.

However the angle I'm coming from is that footballers are becoming more and more homogenized and it's an ever growing requirement to be able to play as a 'footballer' rather than in a 'position'.

There seems to be a growing dearth of 'specialists' in football - largely the 'fault' if you will, of Arsene Wengers footballing philosophy and trend of athlete before ability.

It might well be the day of the everyman footballer, jack of all trades - master of none - Kirk Broadfoot and Sasa Papac being two very good examples in our team...

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

The issue is some players are more suited to specific 'roles' - Wee Willie Henderson would NEVER make it as a Center Forward but since his skill set included a lot of trikery he made a great winger. Probably found out about that at school and thus developed the football strengths that went with his footballing attributes.

Some players are specialists - goalies being the most obvious and dare I say it CH.

Left footed and Right footed players tend to stay on left / right sides.

People with pace to burn tend to be suited to forwards roles - people with great engines and touch midfield roles.

Then you get the athletes who can play football and are suited to numerous roles - and they tend to be left and right backs or left and right midfield (as opposed to 'wingers').

Someone with decent height - althletic engine and football skil can play many roles BUT we become used to them playing one position - thus we call that their 'natural' position - and if they change from that (and have a stinker) we blame any manager who plays them in that un-natural position. Also, for the teams benefit, a player may be asjked to play in a position they are not used to - and it may take a while but they grow into the role (Broadfoot and Papac).

To me though t=its the Managers job to do the best he can with his squad and play players where HE thinks they are most beneficial to the team as a whole - thus if Mendes and Davis are both available Mendes will play in center and Davis out right (most likely)

[*Manticore* 1,893]

The Kama Sutra is excellent on both natural and unnatural positions.

[AGM_72 3,765]

Now I keep hearing that Lafferty at left mid isn't natural, and up until now I've accepted that.

But looking back, I have a few issues with it. He played out there for over two years at Burnley, and he's played there almost exclusively for us. With this in mind, is he still a striker? In general, he's looked so poor up front that I'm struggling to see that as well.

Take Broadfoot as well. He started off as a CB, but has played right back for about 18 months now and rarely does anyone even consider him to be a CB any more. It only took Papac a year at LB to be considered as natural for that position, instead of his supposedly natural one at CB.

What about Novo? Is he still a striker, or has he changed to a fleet-footed winger, capable of beating players at will?

It's one of those things that's always perplexed me, moreso since Smith came back and moved people around as he does.

He did play there for Burnley, however it was generally down to that fact that he was such a promising talent that they wanted to give him games. They did however at the time have a decent strike force so Lafferty was played out of position on the left wing due to them being short of a winger.

I really don't think we have seen enough of Lafferty as a striker to judge him. What he needs is to get a game upfront in the same 442 that has worked so well for Boyd and Miller. He has shown for Northern Ireland that he can do it, I just don't think he has been given the chance to play a run of games in any one role. He was looking good at the end of last season and I believe that he will come good.

Its a bit like Fleck, we know that left wing isn't his natural position but he is played there to get experience. Sometimes when you are young you need to do a job that isn't natural to you simply because there are better and more experienced players in front of you. He won't always look great but being involved in the team in some capacity should hopefully help his development. In the future however I hope to see Fleck nailing down a position, otherwise he could end up like Alan Smith

I believe playing different roles can be beneficial to a player, it allows them to work on areas of there game that previously would have been missing. All of our players should be confident with a ball at their feet no matter what position they play. We should be able to get back and cover for our team mates if they are out of position. Some players like Boyd however will never be suited to any role other than a striker, he has added a lot to his game but playing him on the wing would be terrible.

With Broadfoot he had played a few different roles for Saint Mirren. He had already played as a wing back in a few games for them (in one game against us) before he joined us, I think it was there that Walter Smith had identified him as being an option as a fullback. Personally I don't think he is good enough at defending to be a centre back, he backs off too much and is easily turned however he can get away with a lot more as a full back and he also has the energy to run up and down the wings and gives wingers less room than Whittaker.

With Sasa Papac we signed him as centre back who could also play left back. He played left back in his first game for us against Hibs. It however became obvious that he wasn't capable of being a centre back in the Scottish game due to his lack of aerial ability. He did however still look good at left back due to being confident on the ball and being a decent tackler.

I think some players are just better at adapting to other positions. You could literally play Steven Davis anywhere on the park and he would do a job for you, he has the ability and knowledge of the game to do so but the same can't be said for many other players. Sometimes your talents simply don't translate to other positions and you have to accept your limitations. Broadfoot is one player who has worked at what he had to become a better player and being played out of his natural position turned out to be very beneficial for him.

Novo is a player who had all the tools to be a winger, he has now been given the space to use them with our recent change of system. With two wingers playing it lets us spread the game out and gives Novo space to run with the ball that he was not previously given. We have a lot more movement which has made our front 2 and our wingers more time and space to hurt teams. He is a player who much like DMB, Miller and Boyd has improved due to playing a system that works to their strengths.

Larsson was played behind the strikers at the start of his Celtic career, he then went on to be a brilliant striker for them. Some players take longer to find a natural position and sometimes being made to adapt to a new position can end up changing a players natural position to something that is actually more suited to them. Each player is different and sometimes it takes a manager thinking outside the box to get the best out of a player.

Interesting topic papa

I think this post hits the nail on the head for me.

[plymouthranger 4,067]

Boogie's actually a defensive midfielder...or he was earlier in his career. I believe its where your attributes lie, notice how the older a player gets the futher back he plays on the pitch (examples Novo and McCulloch).

Ultimately having one fixed position can't be good for anyone, unless your truly a class act at that position and never get injured/replaced.

In other sports I play at club level, I play where i'm put. Whilst its only amateur/semi-professional levels, you are fixed into the team unless your a big player. It also depends how your opposition lines up. I would say I havn't the composure to be a finisher in other sports, but I am often put there due to my pace and low centre of gravity...making it very hard for big opposition players to tackle me.

People like Guardiola pick his players around the oppositions weaknesses, whilst playing to his own teams strenghts. Thats why he is so successful!

[Shearer 124]

Now I keep hearing that Lafferty at left mid isn't natural, and up until now I've accepted that.

But looking back, I have a few issues with it. He played out there for over two years at Burnley, and he's played there almost exclusively for us. With this in mind, is he still a striker? In general, he's looked so poor up front that I'm struggling to see that as well.

Take Broadfoot as well. He started off as a CB, but has played right back for about 18 months now and rarely does anyone even consider him to be a CB any more. It only took Papac a year at LB to be considered as natural for that position, instead of his supposedly natural one at CB.

What about Novo? Is he still a striker, or has he changed to a fleet-footed winger, capable of beating players at will?

It's one of those things that's always perplexed me, moreso since Smith came back and moved people around as he does.

He did play there for Burnley, however it was generally down to that fact that he was such a promising talent that they wanted to give him games. They did however at the time have a decent strike force so Lafferty was played out of position on the left wing due to them being short of a winger.

I really don't think we have seen enough of Lafferty as a striker to judge him. What he needs is to get a game upfront in the same 442 that has worked so well for Boyd and Miller. He has shown for Northern Ireland that he can do it, I just don't think he has been given the chance to play a run of games in any one role. He was looking good at the end of last season and I believe that he will come good.

Its a bit like Fleck, we know that left wing isn't his natural position but he is played there to get experience. Sometimes when you are young you need to do a job that isn't natural to you simply because there are better and more experienced players in front of you. He won't always look great but being involved in the team in some capacity should hopefully help his development. In the future however I hope to see Fleck nailing down a position, otherwise he could end up like Alan Smith

I believe playing different roles can be beneficial to a player, it allows them to work on areas of there game that previously would have been missing. All of our players should be confident with a ball at their feet no matter what position they play. We should be able to get back and cover for our team mates if they are out of position. Some players like Boyd however will never be suited to any role other than a striker, he has added a lot to his game but playing him on the wing would be terrible.

With Broadfoot he had played a few different roles for Saint Mirren. He had already played as a wing back in a few games for them (in one game against us) before he joined us, I think it was there that Walter Smith had identified him as being an option as a fullback. Personally I don't think he is good enough at defending to be a centre back, he backs off too much and is easily turned however he can get away with a lot more as a full back and he also has the energy to run up and down the wings and gives wingers less room than Whittaker.

With Sasa Papac we signed him as centre back who could also play left back. He played left back in his first game for us against Hibs. It however became obvious that he wasn't capable of being a centre back in the Scottish game due to his lack of aerial ability. He did however still look good at left back due to being confident on the ball and being a decent tackler.

I think some players are just better at adapting to other positions. You could literally play Steven Davis anywhere on the park and he would do a job for you, he has the ability and knowledge of the game to do so but the same can't be said for many other players. Sometimes your talents simply don't translate to other positions and you have to accept your limitations. Broadfoot is one player who has worked at what he had to become a better player and being played out of his natural position turned out to be very beneficial for him.

Novo is a player who had all the tools to be a winger, he has now been given the space to use them with our recent change of system. With two wingers playing it lets us spread the game out and gives Novo space to run with the ball that he was not previously given. We have a lot more movement which has made our front 2 and our wingers more time and space to hurt teams. He is a player who much like DMB, Miller and Boyd has improved due to playing a system that works to their strengths.

Larsson was played behind the strikers at the start of his Celtic career, he then went on to be a brilliant striker for them. Some players take longer to find a natural position and sometimes being made to adapt to a new position can end up changing a players natural position to something that is actually more suited to them. Each player is different and sometimes it takes a manager thinking outside the box to get the best out of a player.

Interesting topic papa

I think this post hits the nail on the head for me.

Cheers mate, its a topic that much like Papa interests me greatly.

Its very interesting seeing what everyone else thinks about it

[bluenose48 958]

The Kama Sutra is excellent on both natural and unnatural positions.

Agreed, I always thought an unatural position only became natural when it stopped hurting.

[simon 1,761]

27/12/08 is a major reason I dont think of Broadfoot as a CB and I dont ever want to see him there again.