The Founders Trail and Ibrox Stadium Tour 2010. Autumn Dates.

[Balgairbear 0]

So the arguing is still going on in this thread? Jesus wept

MisterC - I'm certainly not arguing mate (nobody's replied to any of my posts ) and I'm as saddened as many others that this project should attract so much ill feeling from a handful of individuals. For this reason I felt compelled to post and try to defend the guys responsible for the project.

I also would like to see Admin moving swiftly in future to eliminate these negative posts every time anybody makes an attempt to promote or praise the Founders Trail.

Jesus wept! You want Censorship under YOUR terms?

Open debate is the cornerstone of the RM on-line democracy.

Debating this thread is all well and fine, But Name calling, calling people Liars and things get worse Many people on here THOUGHT the OP was SOMEONE else and would NOT beleive him when he told them he was not said person ! IS NOT ON, And still they now think he gives " Shedloads " of money to the person they first thought he was All totally untrue, The OP has told everyone what happens to the money and yet some on here refuse to accept this WHY ? Time to call of the witch hunt guys, and get yourselves onto one of these Trails and see where the money really goes.

That's the biggest load of codswallop in this entire thread.

Get your facts right next time before you post such garbage.

Could you point out what points are " Garbage "

[Ace 3,557]

Wow !!!

I opened this thread because i thought it might be interesting to hear about our founders and i have walked into the middle of a fued that makes Israel & Palestine look like a minor squabble (not really ... but for effect )

I have been on the stadium tour, i have been into the club museum a few times via corporate hospitality also. Both events have given me a deeper understanding of the club & it's history.

I think the idea of folk taking other bears around the city giving an even deeper insight into the background of the club is nothing but a good thing.

From memory, the club tour was just under £10/head ... the "trail" is £15 including the stadium tour meaning the trail itself is £5 charge (ish), to me tha seems entirely fair and reasonable, it isn't overpriced & it isn't a "rip-off".

So what, if they make a profit ... who cares who the money goes to. Anything is only as valuable as what someone is willing to pay for it .. if this was too expensive no-one would participate .. no matter who or what organisation was involved.

Personally, it's no business of mine (or, i beleive anyone elses) if this "trail" makes money or not, or who it goes to ..... my only concern is "would i want to avail myself of the services offered".

[MrSifter 181]

This is a lamentable thread. It does however underline why Mark Dingwall is a cancer and divisive figure amongst supporter groups and forums. It is still beyond me why he was not expelled from the RST when, as a sitting board member, he physically assaulted a paid up member of the RST at a RST organised meeting.

[MrSifter 181]

Our story and our Founders will be celebrated.

Pity you won't be represented in Lincoln when VB have a ceremony for William McBeath. Not to worry, we did ask if you wanted to publicise your tours on VB and you ignored the invitation. Do you make any other profits from these tours, such as money from the bus tickets etc?

This part of the thread seems to have been lost. I'm keen to understand why the FF (therefore Mark Dingwall) approved Founder's Committee snubbed the ceremony for perhaps our most ill fated founder.

They talk of celebrating the Founders but it appears only to be on their terms and when they are making personal profit.

[Allanger 625]

It is to RM's credit that they allow threads like this where people are allowed to voice opinions.

More power to their elbow.

The content of the thread may not be to everyones liking, fair enough, but thats what you get with open discussion

[Carsons Army 4,146]

Some people seem to be obsessed with comments made about the profit made on these tours, who cares if the 3 people involved make a shilling ?

That is not what people are getting at.

Althought on a previous thread moonlighter did say that no profits were made and M Dingwall was not involved,

Then he changed his mind when someone posted a link to Grandmaster Suck's ebay page, where he was selling all sort of stuff relating to the founders trail.

If this is a business venture combined with a passion for Our clubs history, Then fine, good luck to themm and I wish them every success,

MD will obviously want his cut before the organisers get their crumbs from the masters table.

If Le Bluebear / Moonlighter and the others puts the work in and gives up there time, Then they are clearly entitled to some reward or at least have there expenditure compensated, after MD takes his wedge obviously

Moonlighter said he is not interested in inter site feud, But he refuses to advertise on Vanguardbears ! WHY ? Will MD excomunicate him from ££

Moonlighter is constantly stating all his patronising pish about Rangers and The Founders first, but he is discriminating against a section of the Rangers support simply because they use VB. Is that putting Rangers, The support and the founders first ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Or is he just doing his masters bidding, The person who is responsible for the division and fractures within The Rangers Support !

[Frankie 505]

I'd like to see a community admin mailing list put together so information different projects (no matter their source) can be shared easily and effectively - avoiding the need for individual people to post stuff across several different forums anyway.

I know a few of the sites have attempted this in the recent past but a couple haven't responded to the request either.

If we all worked together then I'm sure past issues could be put aside so positive ventures such as the Founders Trail (and others) can be publicised right across the community.

[MrSifter 181]

If people voluntarily exchange money or other goods and services for the tour then it is up to the organisers if they make profit.

It does however seem disingenuous that they want to "celebrate the founders" yet it is only on their terms. They should be hanging their heads in shame over the William McBeath ceremony. They put their own egos ahead of the "celebrating" they claim to foster.

Such pathetic little men.

[Allanger 625]

I'd like to see a community admin mailing list put together so information different projects (no matter their source) can be shared easily and effectively - avoiding the need for individual people to post stuff across several different forums anyway.

I know a few of the sites have attempted this in the recent past but a couple haven't responded to the request either.

If we all worked together then I'm sure past issues could be put aside so positive ventures such as the Founders Trail (and others) can be publicised right across the community.

Good idea but by now it must be apparent that the highlighted text is simply not going to happen.

[MasterD 7,448]

its a shame that people trying to help others learn the history of our club always have the threads hi-jacked with 100 posts of crap

[MrSifter 181]

its a shame that people trying to help others learn the history of our club always have the threads hi-jacked with 100 posts of crap

They are not "helping" people learn, they are selling a product.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

its a shame that people trying to help others learn the history of our club always have the threads hi-jacked with 100 posts of crap

And that's the bottom line......

[*Manticore* 1,893]

its a shame that people trying to help others learn the history of our club always have the threads hi-jacked with 100 posts of crap

The are not "helping" people learn, they are selling a product.

You say the oddest things.

[nemisis 358]

I'll say it one more time as i'm far too busy for this nonsense, the Founders Project will NOT be bogged down in an inter-website squabble that i have little knowledge of and have played no part in.

You certainly have all the knowledge re dingwall's antipathy to VB and you also play your part in it by refusing the offer to advertise your buisness, the Follow Follow Founders Trail, on Vanguardbears.

Rangers First don't make me laugh.

[4boysandabaw 3]

My contribution to the founders left me with a loss, every penny I spent resulted in a loss. RM admin contacted me before I went to Lincoln to offer financial assistance, as I had already paid for everything I said it was allright. When I came back from Lincoln Mooonlighter contacted me. Moonlighter told me that he would keep me up to date with everything that was happening with William McBeaths grave, giving me the impression that they had the matter in hand and something was being done about it.

The next I heard was from VB, when they announced thay had purchased a lease for the plot, I hadnt heard of VB at that point and was over the moon about it. I then contacted VB and they told me they would keep me up to date with William McBeath. Which they did. I will be going to Williams dedication service. I feel that the Founders Committees absolute refusal to have anything to do with the dedication service is a disgrace and a slap in the face to The Founders.

[McBoyd 355]

I think the Van Guard Bears and William McBeath dedication service need to be kept for a different thread. This has turned from being a thread about a Founders trail around Glasgow, to a slagging match between sites.

[thebooler 4,509]

I'd like to see a community admin mailing list put together so information different projects (no matter their source) can be shared easily and effectively - avoiding the need for individual people to post stuff across several different forums anyway.

I know a few of the sites have attempted this in the recent past but a couple haven't responded to the request either.

If we all worked together then I'm sure past issues could be put aside so positive ventures such as the Founders Trail (and others) can be publicised right across the community.

Who'd have believed it?

A bit of common sense, and an excellent idea!

[Carsons Army 4,146]

I'd like to see a community admin mailing list put together so information different projects (no matter their source) can be shared easily and effectively - avoiding the need for individual people to post stuff across several different forums anyway.

I know a few of the sites have attempted this in the recent past but a couple haven't responded to the request either.

If we all worked together then I'm sure past issues could be put aside so positive ventures such as the Founders Trail (and others) can be publicised right across the community.

Who'd have believed it?

A bit of common sense, and an excellent idea!

Yes it is common sense and it's a terrific idea and an ideal that you would expect most Rangers fans would be committed to,

Sadly some don't think so, and refuse and ignore all offers to unite the support for the common good.

the very same people who patronise people with their "Rangers first" statements, Then do the exact opposite

[thebooler 4,509]

If people voluntarily exchange money or other goods and services for the tour then it is up to the organisers if they make profit.

It does however seem disingenuous that they want to "celebrate the founders" yet it is only on their terms. They should be hanging their heads in shame over the William McBeath ceremony. They put their own egos ahead of the "celebrating" they claim to foster.

Such pathetic little men.

I don't actually know of any business/project that is not run on the terms of the owners/initiators/board.

It looks to me like the guys who are responsible for the project don't want any involvement with certain sites/people (I may be wrong) and surely this is their right, whether anyone agrees or disagrees?

Continually posting about it probably isn't going to change this, fortunately or unfortunately, however each individual views the issue.

As someone said earlier, they do a good job, and if anyone has issues with it, then meet up, speak, discuss, and hopefully find a solution.

If any side in the matter is unwilling to do this, and this seems to be the case here, then nothing is likely to be solved.

As I said earlier, continually making posts, some of which are derogatory and a bit too personal, will solve nothing.

We're all the same here - followers and supporters of the Rangers - and it's great that we all have differing opinions on such a wide variety of topics.

[MrSifter 181]

I don't actually know of any business/project that is not run on the terms of the owners/initiators/board.

It looks to me like the guys who are responsible for the project don't want any involvement with certain sites/people (I may be wrong) and surely this is their right, whether anyone agrees or disagrees?

Continually posting about it probably isn't going to change this, fortunately or unfortunately, however each individual views the issue.

As someone said earlier, they do a good job, and if anyone has issues with it, then meet up, speak, discuss, and hopefully find a solution.

If any side in the matter is unwilling to do this, and this seems to be the case here, then nothing is likely to be solved.

As I said earlier, continually making posts, some of which are derogatory and a bit too personal, will solve nothing.

We're all the same here - followers and supporters of the Rangers - and it's great that we all have differing opinions on such a wide variety of topics.

The Founders don't belong to these guys yet they appear want to monopolise it for themselves. They want support for their scheme yet snub the philanthropy of VB where William McBeath was concerned. I'm led to believe that they were "hopping mad" at Follow Follow towers about being "beaten to the gravestone". The persistant tin rattling and posts selling their wares is interesting. It's the usual Dingwall stuff, give me your money but don't talk back or ask any questions and if you dare go into competition with me I'll crush you.

It is also saddening to say that when poster Red white and Ajax suggested on FF in the event of a league win that Heather Lang (grand-daughter of Peter McNeil) be invited to unfurl the flag he was told by lebluebear the "club can chase themselves, it was us that found her, we're not going to give them her contact details."

Such pathetic little men.

[Coisty355 1]

I don't actually know of any business/project that is not run on the terms of the owners/initiators/board.

It looks to me like the guys who are responsible for the project don't want any involvement with certain sites/people (I may be wrong) and surely this is their right, whether anyone agrees or disagrees?

Continually posting about it probably isn't going to change this, fortunately or unfortunately, however each individual views the issue.

As someone said earlier, they do a good job, and if anyone has issues with it, then meet up, speak, discuss, and hopefully find a solution.

If any side in the matter is unwilling to do this, and this seems to be the case here, then nothing is likely to be solved.

As I said earlier, continually making posts, some of which are derogatory and a bit too personal, will solve nothing.

We're all the same here - followers and supporters of the Rangers - and it's great that we all have differing opinions on such a wide variety of topics.

The Founders don't belong to these guys yet they appear want to monopolise it for themselves. They want support for their scheme yet snub the philanthropy of VB where William McBeath was concerned. I'm led to believe that they were "hopping mad" at Follow Follow towers about being "beaten to the gravestone". The persistant tin rattling and posts selling their wares is interesting. It's the usual Dingwall stuff, give me your money but don't talk back or ask any questions and if you dare go into competition with me I'll crush you.

It is also saddening to say that when poster Red white and Ajax suggested on FF in the event of a league win that Heather Lang (grand-daughter of Peter McNeil) be invited to unfurl the flag he was told by lebluebear the "club can chase themselves, it was us that found her, we're not going to give them her contact details."

Such pathetic little men.

Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not Gary Ralston who located the final resting place of William McBeath?

And I believe the issue that some people had about Peter McNeil's grand-daughters was the fact they had been snubbed by the Club at the last Hall of Fame dinner (when McNeil was inducted). There was doubt as to whether the Club would bother inviting them to unfurl the flag.

Also, quotation marks are usually used when actually quoting something a person has said, not something made up in your head.

[MrSifter 181]

Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not Gary Ralston who located the final resting place of William McBeath?

And I believe the issue that some people had about Peter McNeil's grand-daughters was the fact they had been snubbed by the Club at the last Hall of Fame dinner (when McNeil was inducted). There was doubt as to whether the Club would bother inviting them unfurl the flag.

Also, quotation marks are usually used when actually quoting something a person has said, not something made up in your head.

Who said anything about "locating the final resting place of William McBeath"?

The quotation marks are direct from conversations I had with a current FF admin (one of the originals too from back in the old Rivals board days). I have no reason to question his integrity.

Likewise I was told directly about lebluebear's comments to Red White and Ajax. It was posted about on here many months ago too.

[Coisty355 1]

Correct me if I'm wrong but was it not Gary Ralston who located the final resting place of William McBeath?

And I believe the issue that some people had about Peter McNeil's grand-daughters was the fact they had been snubbed by the Club at the last Hall of Fame dinner (when McNeil was inducted). There was doubt as to whether the Club would bother inviting them unfurl the flag.

Also, quotation marks are usually used when actually quoting something a person has said, not something made up in your head.

Who said anything about "locating the final resting place of William McBeath"?

The quotation marks are direct from conversations I had with a current FF admin (one of the originals too from back in the old Rivals board days). I have no reason to question his integrity.

Likewise I was told directly about lebluebear's comments to Red White and Ajax. It was posted about on here many months ago too.

You said they were "beaten to the gravestone" when commenting on the Vanguard Bears efforts as if they had got there first.

[MrSifter 181]

You said they were "beaten to the gravestone" when commenting on the Vanguard Bears efforts as if they had got there first.

Correct. Nothing about "locating the final resting place of William McBeath". The key word and bone of contention was the "gravestone".

The FF sponsored Founders team won't even discuss the gravestone and FF won't even allow posts about it on their board. Very odd for people demanding the "celebration of the Founders", I'm sure you'll agree.

[MrSifter 181]

deleted, repost of the above