Bigotry- Constructive engagement and positive strategy

[Frankie 505]

Didn't get much of a chance to contribute over the weekend about the various discussions about the YouTube issue. Again, though it's amazing the double standards of the press when it comes to these grainy mobile phone videos and subsequent coverage.

However, no matter the obvious media problems we have, that can no way excuse the behaviour of our fans. FTP has no place in our songs and no place in our support at any game. To suggest it does is foolhardy and will end in the death of our club. The fenian term is perhaps less clear but in any case UEFA have banned it's use and we have to follow their rules - no matter how hypocriticial some may be when complaing about it.

Now, we can all be upset at the unfair treatment we get from the media. We can also be upset at the lack of defence from the chairman of our club. But, we cannot ignore the fact we still have a reasonable size of our support (most accurately our away support) who are obviously suicidal.

The Billy Boys is creeping back. FTP is not going away. Red hand salutes are still fashionable amongst many home and away. This is all going to be reported and acted upon at some point - not just by UEFA but by the SFA from next season. Who fancies a 10 point deduction for next season? I don't. Not for some idiots in our support who can't learn their lesson. The next 2 years can see the Rangers modernise and improve. Or it can die. Melo-dramatic maybe. Sensational, perhaps. Realistic - too right!

However, we have to be very careful in how we approach this conundrum. Education and not always direct condemnation is the key here. Leadership is also required and we need help in getting the message across that the situation is dangerous and we need to change for the better.

As such, IMO, we - the fans and the tolerant majority - have to lead from the front. WE have to be more constructive in leading the fight against sectarianism and clarifying exactly what is expected from the support. The club won't do it. The RSA won't do it. The police won't do it. The politicians won't do it. The media crusaders won't do it.

Thankfully, I'm hearing that there are very positive signs of something happening regarding this problem. There are fans prepared to lead the way and there are some very imaginative ideas for combatting the bigotry issue amongst the small (but vocal) cross section of support. What will be needed though is support for these fans and support for the initiatives that may introduce.

Debating the partiality of the media and the authorities is certainly still relevant. But for that debate to have better credibility means we have to sort out our own faults. Let's hope we can do that together sooner rather than later.

The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

[Guest orangpendek]

great post frankie. i must admit tho that i am bigoted against religion, i don't like them. this i consider to be a pragmatic attitude in this day and age. i don't need education other than to be told, as i was several years ago, to shut up about religion at the football. how hard is that to understand?

[THEFISH 0]

Didn't get much of a chance to contribute over the weekend about the various discussions about the YouTube issue. Again, though it's amazing the double standards of the press when it comes to these grainy mobile phone videos and subsequent coverage.

However, no matter the obvious media problems we have, that can no way excuse the behaviour of our fans. FTP has no place in our songs and no place in our support at any game. To suggest it does is foolhardy and will end in the death of our club. The fenian term is perhaps less clear but in any case UEFA have banned it's use and we have to follow their rules - no matter how hypocriticial some may be when complaing about it.

Now, we can all be upset at the unfair treatment we get from the media. We can also be upset at the lack of defence from the chairman of our club. But, we cannot ignore the fact we still have a reasonable size of our support (most accurately our away support) who are obviously suicidal.

The Billy Boys is creeping back. FTP is not going away. Red hand salutes are still fashionable amongst many home and away. This is all going to be reported and acted upon at some point - not just by UEFA but by the SFA from next season. Who fancies a 10 point deduction for next season? I don't. Not for some idiots in our support who can't learn their lesson. The next 2 years can see the Rangers modernise and improve. Or it can die. Melo-dramatic maybe. Sensational, perhaps. Realistic - too right!

However, we have to be very careful in how we approach this conundrum. Education and not always direct condemnation is the key here. Leadership is also required and we need help in getting the message across that the situation is dangerous and we need to change for the better.

As such, IMO, we - the fans and the tolerant majority - have to lead from the front. WE have to be more constructive in leading the fight against sectarianism and clarifying exactly what is expected from the support. The club won't do it. The RSA won't do it. The police won't do it. The politicians won't do it. The media crusaders won't do it.

Thankfully, I'm hearing that there are very positive signs of something happening regarding this problem. There are fans prepared to lead the way and there are some very imaginative ideas for combatting the bigotry issue amongst the small (but vocal) cross section of support. What will be needed though is support for these fans and support for the initiatives that may introduce.

Debating the partiality of the media and the authorities is certainly still relevant. But for that debate to have better credibility means we have to sort out our own faults. Let's hope we can do that together sooner rather than later.

The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Very diplomatic post and I commend you for it but I would just like to repeat what I said earlier coz its the way I feel......

Aw right then...let close up RFC for a few seasons and see how the other barstewards get on without us eh

Feck the lot of them...stand up and fight and let the barstewards know we will not be walked over the top of

Feckin greetin everyday aboot feckin songs sung at matches they are not even present at......send the barstewards back to where they feckin belong or they can feckin shut it (beer)

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Excellent post Frankie, I hate to criticise fellow bears but some of their behaviour is intolerable. Red hand salutes and FTP have to go.

Reluctantly (speaking as somebody who would never use the term to describe a rc) so does fenian.

But as you say we have to have dialogue and education. Imo one of the most annoying thing about this whole process is that Rangers fans are talked at, not to.

[Frankie 505]

Fish:

No-one is suggesting we close the club or don't fight our detractors. That is not an option.

However, if we don't sort out the problems we do have, then the club will be essentially closed and our detratcors will win. Now, we're not fighting them on an even playing field so we have to use a different strategy to try and combat them.

I've speaking with different people in the last few days about such a strategy and I think it's going to be a winner. I am really excitied about it actually and no-one (not the media, the authorites, the policiticians and the other fans) would be able to say anything negative about it.

[Stuart_RFC 41]

i get what you mean FISH, we shouldnt be lying down and taking it, someone (i.e murray) has to stand up and at least speak out about this and defend us.

[Guest orangpendek]

i hope your stategy involves using current or former players who are brave enough to drive home the message. the people we are talking about won't take a telling from the like of traynor or spiers ( who would?) but if john greig or sandy jardine or terry butcher told them..it might be different.

[BlueIsTheColour 35]

Good post Frankie. I hope the strategy that you are trying to come up with will help us rid ourselves of the fans who constantly let us down.

BTW, did you get any response from Strathclyde Police regarding the OF match? Interested to hear what their response was.

[Frankie 505]

i hope your stategy involves using current or former players who are brave enough to drive home the message. the people we are talking about won't take a telling from the like of traynor or spiers ( who would?) but if john greig or sandy jardine or terry butcher told them..it might be different.

It would involve a number of such people mate. Not sure Jardine or Butcher would be too welcome in the current climate but in terms of people like Gordon Smith and other credible figures, that's certainly one positive route.

More will be announced early next week.

[J_RFC87 761]

I hate to criticise fellow bears but some of their behaviour is intolerable.

Im sure most people feel this way including me. I could never grass up on a fellow fan at a game and get them thrown out, which is part of the problem. We dont have enough people who put morality and fellowship aside.

Great initial post and I completly agree. Is there a solution though and who is to enforce and command it? Thats a problem as there isnt an esay option, and the hard option is to punish us severly.

[Frankie 505]

Good post Frankie. I hope the strategy that you are trying to come up with will help us rid ourselves of the fans who constantly let us down.

BTW, did you get any response from Strathclyde Police regarding the OF match? Interested to hear what their response was.

No reponse as yet. But, this issue is ongoing and we'll be keeping everyone informed as to it's progress.

[minstral 5,375]

Fish:

No-one is suggesting we close the club or don't fight our detractors. That is not an option.

However, if we don't sort out the problems we do have, then the club will be essentially closed and our detratcors will win. Now, we're not fighting them on an even playing field so we have to use a different strategy to try and combat them.

I've speaking with different people in the last few days about such a strategy and I think it's going to be a winner. I am really excitied about it actually and no-one (not the media, the authorites, the policiticians and the other fans) would be able to say anything negative about it.

frankie is there any way you can find out which songs we are allowed to sing and which our club would fight back against the press if they said they were sectarian examples the sash or no surrender.we all know the billy boys and the ftp is gone or we are in big trouble but if only the club can tell the fans what is allowed we might start to make some progress.

[THEFISH 0]

Fish:

No-one is suggesting we close the club or don't fight our detractors. That is not an option.

However, if we don't sort out the problems we do have, then the club will be essentially closed and our detratcors will win. Now, we're not fighting them on an even playing field so we have to use a different strategy to try and combat them.

I've speaking with different people in the last few days about such a strategy and I think it's going to be a winner. I am really excitied about it actually and no-one (not the media, the authorites, the policiticians and the other fans) would be able to say anything negative about it.

frankie is there any way you can find out which songs we are allowed to sing and which our club would fight back against the press if they said they were sectarian examples the sash or no surrender.we all know the billy boys and the ftp is gone or we are in big trouble but if only the club can tell the fans what is allowed we might start to make some progress.

We can sing any songe we like as long as they dont contain the lyrics....ftp, fenians and we are the Billy Boys

All we have to do is change the lyrics slightly and bobs yer uncle Ive been saying it for nearly 2 feckin yrs noo

[Frankie 505]

frankie is there any way you can find out which songs we are allowed to sing and which our club would fight back against the press if they said they were sectarian examples the sash or no surrender.we all know the billy boys and the ftp is gone or we are in big trouble but if only the club can tell the fans what is allowed we might start to make some progress.

Mate, it's quite clear to be honest.

1. The Billy Boys has been banned. We cannot sing it or use it's tune.

2. Imbibing FTP and the word 'fenian' is also unacceptable and we will be fined if we use it. That means 'Simply the Best' and 'We are Rangers' are, although not banned per se, very dangerous to sing due to the fact some will persist in adding the offensive words.

Every other song is fine despite what some media figures and other supports will try and infer. The club have no issue with the Sash or Derry's Walls. Neither do UEFA or the SFA as both have described the Rangers support as flawless after games in which these songs were sung. That's not to say they won't be 'attacked' in the future by the same people who have reported us previously. Especially if the club does not defend itself.

Ergo, what you suggest has merit. David Murray has already said WATP and the Union flag will always be welcome at Ibrox. We have to clarilfy that as well as the songs which are acceptable. After, that, we then need to have the backing of the club and other relevant bodies to ensure other parties do not have the stick to beat us with.

[minstral 5,375]

Fish:

No-one is suggesting we close the club or don't fight our detractors. That is not an option.

However, if we don't sort out the problems we do have, then the club will be essentially closed and our detratcors will win. Now, we're not fighting them on an even playing field so we have to use a different strategy to try and combat them.

I've speaking with different people in the last few days about such a strategy and I think it's going to be a winner. I am really excitied about it actually and no-one (not the media, the authorites, the policiticians and the other fans) would be able to say anything negative about it.

frankie is there any way you can find out which songs we are allowed to sing and which our club would fight back against the press if they said they were sectarian examples the sash or no surrender.we all know the billy boys and the ftp is gone or we are in big trouble but if only the club can tell the fans what is allowed we might start to make some progress.

We can sing any songe we like as long as they dont contain the lyrics....ftp, fenians and we are the Billy Boys

All we have to do is change the lyrics slightly and bobs yer uncle Ive been saying it for nearly 2 feckin yrs noo

can you imagine, if all the fans changed the words of the billy boys and we all sung the new words, the press would be sick.

[Guest orangpendek]

i should have thought butcher woud be perfect as a plainly huge fan of the union but one who sees no merit in some people's religious prejuidice.

what has sandy jardine done? i always thought he was a gentleman.

[Frankie 505]

i should have thought butcher woud be perfect as a plainly huge fan of the union but one who sees no merit in some people's religious prejuidice.

what has sandy jardine done? i always thought he was a gentleman.

Jardine told lies about how the club were going to approach a minute's silence for Bobby Shearer last year.

Butcher has lost a lot of respect from many supporters regarding his thoughts on the club since he left. Apparently, he also wasn't completely up front about certain issues.

As such, these ex-players maybe aren't the best guys to achieve 100% backing from the support.

[minstral 5,375]

is there no one who would try and speak to our away support maybe a ex player,who could twll them that we could get closed down or cease to exist if they dont change their ways.at least try to educate them and if the love our club like the claim they do,then it has to stop then ask them do you want to lose our great club because of a few words like ftp or up to our knees,because that will be the choice.

[Guest orangpendek]

oh well...another illusion shattered. cue keyboard intro from 'no more heroes'

[Frankie 505]

More info on this news might be available on Radio Scotland tonight.

[robroy72 0]

Frankie,

This sounds great. Have the RST ever considered requesting an audience with HRH Jack McConnel, king of Scotland, to discuss the kind on one sided policing, and approach on sectarianism in football in general, that is driven from his office? Surely if he can take time from his schedule to attend an OF fixture to support cel ... I mean... take in the atmosphere 1st hand, he could take an hour out to talk to the RST?

[Frankie 505]

Frankie,

This sounds great. Have the RST ever considered requesting an audience with HRH Jack McConnel, king of Scotland, to discuss the kind on one sided policing, and approach on sectarianism in football in general, that is driven from his office? Surely if he can take time from his schedule to attend an OF fixture to support cel ... I mean... take in the atmosphere 1st hand, he could take an hour out to talk to the RST?

There was obviously a summit a couple of years ago (strangely on the same day as a Rangers game!) but, I agree, a tete-a-tete with the First Minister might be constructive.

First things first though. We need to sort out amongst the fans where we want to go in terms of the whole debate. Then we can move onto specific strategy.

[rab wilson 3,250]

Didn't get much of a chance to contribute over the weekend about the various discussions about the YouTube issue. Again, though it's amazing the double standards of the press when it comes to these grainy mobile phone videos and subsequent coverage.

However, no matter the obvious media problems we have, that can no way excuse the behaviour of our fans. FTP has no place in our songs and no place in our support at any game. To suggest it does is foolhardy and will end in the death of our club. The fenian term is perhaps less clear but in any case UEFA have banned it's use and we have to follow their rules - no matter how hypocriticial some may be when complaing about it.

Now, we can all be upset at the unfair treatment we get from the media. We can also be upset at the lack of defence from the chairman of our club. But, we cannot ignore the fact we still have a reasonable size of our support (most accurately our away support) who are obviously suicidal.

The Billy Boys is creeping back. FTP is not going away. Red hand salutes are still fashionable amongst many home and away. This is all going to be reported and acted upon at some point - not just by UEFA but by the SFA from next season. Who fancies a 10 point deduction for next season? I don't. Not for some idiots in our support who can't learn their lesson. The next 2 years can see the Rangers modernise and improve. Or it can die. Melo-dramatic maybe. Sensational, perhaps. Realistic - too right!

However, we have to be very careful in how we approach this conundrum. Education and not always direct condemnation is the key here. Leadership is also required and we need help in getting the message across that the situation is dangerous and we need to change for the better.

As such, IMO, we - the fans and the tolerant majority - have to lead from the front. WE have to be more constructive in leading the fight against sectarianism and clarifying exactly what is expected from the support. The club won't do it. The RSA won't do it. The police won't do it. The politicians won't do it. The media crusaders won't do it.

Thankfully, I'm hearing that there are very positive signs of something happening regarding this problem. There are fans prepared to lead the way and there are some very imaginative ideas for combatting the bigotry issue amongst the small (but vocal) cross section of support. What will be needed though is support for these fans and support for the initiatives that may introduce.

Debating the partiality of the media and the authorities is certainly still relevant. But for that debate to have better credibility means we have to sort out our own faults. Let's hope we can do that together sooner rather than later.

The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

Very diplomatic post and I commend you for it but I would just like to repeat what I said earlier coz its the way I feel......

Aw right then...let close up RFC for a few seasons and see how the other barstewards get on without us eh

Feck the lot of them...stand up and fight and let the barstewards know we will not be walked over the top of

Feckin greetin everyday aboot feckin songs sung at matches they are not even present at......send the barstewards back to where they feckin belong or they can feckin shut it (beer)

Go on Fishy! I'm with him! Nae wonder the atmosphere at ibrox is pish with people like you lot. Why don't you all just roll over and have your bellies tickled. or better still, let a spanish copper bash the living fuck out of you, then get called a bigot for singing Rule Britannia with your arms aloft, you deserve it cos you are a moronic h** anyway. Teams and fans alike used to shit themselves coming to ibrox, the atmosphere and sheer venom from the stands. I bet some on here are the the same twats that watched me and ma cousin take a tankin at the De Kuip. All shitting their tiny wee PC pants. You lot are the embarrasment at times, not the boys that tried to fight the spanish polis off on wednesday. Ach, bollocks!

[THEFISH 0]

Frankie,

This sounds great. Have the RST ever considered requesting an audience with HRH Jack McConnel, king of Scotland, to discuss the kind on one sided policing, and approach on sectarianism in football in general, that is driven from his office? Surely if he can take time from his schedule to attend an OF fixture to support cel ... I mean... take in the atmosphere 1st hand, he could take an hour out to talk to the RST?

There was obviously a summit a couple of years ago (strangely on the same day as a Rangers game!) but, I agree, a tete-a-tete with the First Minister might be constructive.

First things first though. We need to sort out amongst the fans where we want to go in terms of the whole debate. Then we can move onto specific strategy.

Why dont we cut out the monkey and go straight to the organ grinder Mr Blair...lets stop feckin about coz I have a feelin King Jack is not interested in listening to our case and if we get Tonys attention that barsteward Jack will look like the clown he is :Animation44: (beer)

[THEFISH 0]

Ach shit I just remembered Keevins said yesterday we have all got to grow up and stop taking these issues up with MPs etc

Well thats what he told a caller about the knackerdmotor issue anyway