The Tax Case Tribunal

[gunslinger 270]

So if we go insolvent after losing(which im assuming we will)we owe Whyte money too?

Would we not go straight into administration if we lose?

And it looks as if I said I think we will lose, I mean im assuming we will go insolvent if we lose.

well according to bain we only go into administration if we loose for more than 10 to 15 million.

[RFC55 110,258]

So if we go insolvent after losing(which im assuming we will)we owe Whyte money too?

Would we not go straight into administration if we lose?

And it looks as if I said I think we will lose, I mean im assuming we will go insolvent if we lose.

Thats why i asked the question will it be a payment scheme or do they want it straight away.

I also have read that even if its a massive bill people are hit with HMRC normaly take what can be afforded ie if we owe 50 mil we pay 10 mil

[gunslinger 270]

Thats why i asked the question will it be a payment scheme or do they want it straight away.

I also have read that even if its a massive bill people are hit with HMRC normaly take what can be afforded ie if we owe 50 mil we pay 10 mil

under Murray hmrc would most likely have would us up and sold the lot getting the bulk of their cash.

under whyte the cash would go to him so its pointless. we don't know what they will do but you have to imagine getting 10 million would be a good result for them so they would accept it.

[PaulRFC1 115]

Thats why i asked the question will it be a payment scheme or do they want it straight away.

I also have read that even if its a massive bill people are hit with HMRC normaly take what can be afforded ie if we owe 50 mil we pay 10 mil

Yeah they do.

If we were hit with 50million we would get administrators in im sure. They would then try and reach an agreement like paying 10p to the pound.

Think about it in HMRCs point of view, if we go into insolvency then they wont get there money back surely. Were say we could pay 15-20million of that bill then surely they would take that. They could then chase up other clubs who have been using the same scheme.

Im not totally sure about all this tho.

[PaulRFC1 115]

under Murray hmrc would most likely have would us up and sold the lot getting the bulk of their cash.

under whyte the cash would go to him so its pointless. we don't know what they will do but you have to imagine getting 10 million would be a good result for them so they would accept it.

It seems Whyte is a pretty smart man then.

Could he use the debt he has waived to pay of some of our other debts or am I getting it totally wrong?

And you have to think that HMRC would be delighted with just winning this case as it would allow them to chase up all the other clubs.

[gunslinger 270]

It seems Whyte is a pretty smart man then.

Could he use the debt he has waived to pay of some of our other debts or am I getting it totally wrong?

And you have to think that HMRC would be delighted with just winning this case as it would allow them to chase up all the other clubs.

no i don't see how waiving the debt helps elsewhere.

[PaulRFC1 115]

no i don't see how waiving the debt helps elsewhere.

I dont know, thats why I was asking.

What did he do with the lloyds debt? and could he use that in helping us no?

[gunslinger 270]

this is what would likely happen.

Revenue and Customs challenged the legality of Portsmouth's Company Voluntary Agreement, the means by which the Championship club will attempt to settle their debts.

"I propose to find in favour of the company administrators and dismiss the application of HMRC," said Mr Justice Mann.

Speaking before today's decision, Portsmouth's lawyer said a successful challenge by the tax authorities could have been terminal for the club.

"There is no other purchaser,” Richard Sheldon QC told the court. “The only other way in which this club can move forward is through this proposed sale.

“If the club is not sold or very nearly sold by the start of the season, it will clearly be relegated out of the Football League,” he said. “This will happen because the administrators cannot give the assurances needed that the season’s fixtures can be completed."

HMRC argued the CVA was "unfair and seriously flawed" as it gave preference to football creditors, including players, who were able to claim up to 100 per cent of monies owed them, while other creditors, including the Revenue, would receive much less.

Gregory Mitchell QC, appearing for HMRC, said that, under what was known as the Football Creditors Rule: "One class scoops the pool and the rest are left out in the cold."

HMRC also argued it was owed £13million more than the £24million value put on its claim. The administrators disputed the accuracy of the taxman's figures and assessments, and today the judge ruled in their favour.

Later HMRC said in a statement: "HMRC is naturally disappointed not to have won this appeal and we can confirm that we do not intend to appeal.

"Our aim when pursuing debt of any kind is to achieve a fair outcome for the taxpayer and we will take this forward in the wider context of the football industry through separate and outstanding legal proceedings over the status of the so-called Football Creditors Rule.

"This is an important and complex judgment and until we have had the opportunity to study it in detail we can't comment further."

[gunslinger 270]

I dont know, thats why I was asking.

What did he do with the lloyds debt? and could he use that in helping us no?

he repaid lloyds.

[PaulRFC1 115]

Thats why i asked the question will it be a payment scheme or do they want it straight away.

I also have read that even if its a massive bill people are hit with HMRC normaly take what can be afforded ie if we owe 50 mil we pay 10 mil

Q What will happen if Rangers cannot pay their tax bills?

A Football is different to any other business in the UK. If this was a normal company the Inland Revenue would issue winding up proceedings immediately. As it is football they tend not to do this and try to reach an agreed settlement.

That was a Q and A with a tax guy.

I don't see us getting hit with a 50million bill tho.

Arsenal got done for the same thing as us(EPB)and they only got fined 11million.

Im sure if the max we got hit with was 30million we could reach an agreed settlement of around 10-15million.

[PaulRFC1 115]

this is what would likely happen.

Revenue and Customs challenged the legality of Portsmouth's Company Voluntary Agreement, the means by which the Championship club will attempt to settle their debts.

"I propose to find in favour of the company administrators and dismiss the application of HMRC," said Mr Justice Mann.

Speaking before today's decision, Portsmouth's lawyer said a successful challenge by the tax authorities could have been terminal for the club.

"There is no other purchaser,” Richard Sheldon QC told the court. “The only other way in which this club can move forward is through this proposed sale.

“If the club is not sold or very nearly sold by the start of the season, it will clearly be relegated out of the Football League,” he said. “This will happen because the administrators cannot give the assurances needed that the season’s fixtures can be completed."

HMRC argued the CVA was "unfair and seriously flawed" as it gave preference to football creditors, including players, who were able to claim up to 100 per cent of monies owed them, while other creditors, including the Revenue, would receive much less.

Gregory Mitchell QC, appearing for HMRC, said that, under what was known as the Football Creditors Rule: "One class scoops the pool and the rest are left out in the cold."

HMRC also argued it was owed £13million more than the £24million value put on its claim. The administrators disputed the accuracy of the taxman's figures and assessments, and today the judge ruled in their favour.

Later HMRC said in a statement: "HMRC is naturally disappointed not to have won this appeal and we can confirm that we do not intend to appeal.

"Our aim when pursuing debt of any kind is to achieve a fair outcome for the taxpayer and we will take this forward in the wider context of the football industry through separate and outstanding legal proceedings over the status of the so-called Football Creditors Rule.

"This is an important and complex judgment and until we have had the opportunity to study it in detail we can't comment further."

That administrators would come in and try and settle the debt?

The difference with Portsmouth tho was that they were like 125million in debt and losing cash heavily.

We are not in that kind of position and could more than likely pay a bill of around 15million.

[gunslinger 270]

Q What will happen if Rangers cannot pay their tax bills?

A Football is different to any other business in the UK. If this was a normal company the Inland Revenue would issue winding up proceedings immediately. As it is football they tend not to do this and try to reach an agreed settlement.

That was a Q and A with a tax guy.

I don't see us getting hit with a 50million bill tho.

Arsenal got done for the same thing as us(EPB)and they only got fined 11million.

Im sure if the max we got hit with was 30million we could reach an agreed settlement of around 10-15million.

arsenal got done with something different and the sums involved were also different.

you can't compare them.

[gunslinger 270]

That administrators would come in and try and settle the debt?

The difference with Portsmouth tho was that they were like 125million in debt and losing cash heavily.

We are not in that kind of position and could more than likely pay a bill of around 15million.

but not 50 million. a loss at that level would put us 80 to 90 million in debt and loosing money.

that's comparable with Portsmouth.

[DarcheVinny 1,003]

Am I a fucking mind reader and am I meant to know they threads are there ???

I'm not on here 24/7 like some clowns on here

Admin, this gentleman or gentlewoman has a point.

Please provide him or her with his or her own 'tax case' sub-forum, containing all 'tax case' related threads, which only he or her has access to. It just isn't fair for all the other users to make a mockery of him or her asking perfectly valid questions like this.

Please admin, give Mr/Mrs/Miss Gillete a break

[PaulRFC1 115]

but not 50 million. a loss at that level would put us 80 to 90 million in debt and loosing money.

that's comparable with Portsmouth.

Why 80 to 90million in debt?

[gunslinger 270]

Why 80 to 90million in debt?

we would be insolvent and would owe whyte and hmrc at least that much.

[PaulRFC1 115]

we would be insolvent and would owe whyte and hmrc at least that much.

We would be effectively dead.

No way we could pay that

Is there any possible way out of that?

[gunslinger 270]

We would be effectively dead.

No way we could pay that

Is there any possible way out of that?

yes the Portsmouth way.

[Sicknote 26]

Portsmouth is probably the closest example we have. With regards to what might happen if we can't pay or reach an agreement.

Arsenal only did the scheme for a short time, accepted they were in the wrong, paid back the tax and a 50% fine with interest.

Difficult to find examples, because whilst SDM jumped all over this scheme. Almost every other football club didn't.

[PaulRFC1 115]

yes the Portsmouth way.

Can you go in administration after going insolvent?

I thought you just went bust.

So basically - Portsmouth way if we get hit with a huge tax bill(50million).

[TheLawMan 6,240]

Q What will happen if Rangers cannot pay their tax bills?

A Football is different to any other business in the UK. If this was a normal company the Inland Revenue would issue winding up proceedings immediately. As it is football they tend not to do this and try to reach an agreed settlement.

That was a Q and A with a tax guy.

I don't see us getting hit with a 50million bill tho.

Arsenal got done for the same thing as us(EPB)and they only got fined 11million.

Im sure if the max we got hit with was 30million we could reach an agreed settlement of around 10-15million.

Arsenals case was completely different(it was deduction of EBT for corporation tax purposes) and the alleged bill was less than £11m(journos got it wrong) though there is no evidence that they actually paid it. Only evidence is that they provided for it in their accounts "just in case"

[gunslinger 270]

Can you go in administration after going insolvent?

I thought you just went bust.

So basically - Portsmouth way if we get hit with a huge tax bill(50million).

if your insolvent you go into administration if the administrator can't find a way out you go bust.

[PaulRFC1 115]

if your insolvent you go into administration if the administrator can't find a way out you go bust.

Cheers for clearing that up.

[NessFTW 40]

I'm staying out of this one