Desperado Odios Creep Graham Spiers writes EBTs "morally wrong"

[77amurai 258]

Morally wrong....... that's a joke. I don't like tax avoidance, but my ire lies with a government that allowed these loopholes to be implemented in the first place as opposed to the business that uses it to mitigate cost.

Rangers, and MIH (although I have my issues there) have paid untold amounts in tax payments, including through their employees PAYE over the years, yet this is ignored to suit this hacks agenda.

Like the Starbucks stories of how little they paid in tax. Yes it's atrocious, but look at the amount they've put into the country through their employees. Conveniently ignored to suit the story of the day.........

Christ I hate "journalists".

[Big Al 55 9,281]

Sorry but they are morally wrong IMO.

Why should you me and most others who are salaried have to pay at source, when those earnings millions per year are able to avoid tax on a massive scale.

Legal but morally wrong.

[77amurai 258]

Sorry but they are morally wrong IMO.

Why should you me and most others who are salaried have to pay at source, when those earnings millions per year are able to avoid tax on a massive scale.

Legal but morally wrong.

Yes, but a company has no obligation to the collective, our government does. It's their responsibility to close these loopholes.

[Big Al 55 9,281]

Yes, but a company has no obligation to the collective, our government does. It's their responsibility to close these loopholes.

Absolutely, I'm just saying it is in my opinion morally wrong.

As is tax avoidance from companies like Amazon, Starbucks and individuals like Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr. Especially given the current climate.

Britney better makes sure he is squeaky clean coming out with articles like that though.

[77amurai 258]

Absolutely, I'm just saying it is in my opinion morally wrong.

As is tax avoidance from companies like Amazon, Starbucks and individuals like Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr. Especially given the current climate.

Britney better makes sure he is squeaky clean coming out with articles like that though.

Again, we conveniently ignore how much money these companies put into our economy, it's astronomical amounts.

Corporate morality will never exist anyway.

I appear to be slightly jaded this morning.

[Calgacus 88]

by his logic anyone who has a tax free savings account like an ISA is morally wrong.

And Rangers were never charges with tax evasion, if HMRC had thought that, people would have been arrested and charged. At worst is was tax avoidance gone wrong.

[DietofWorms 2,063]

Absolutely, I'm just saying it is in my opinion morally wrong.

As is tax avoidance from companies like Amazon, Starbucks and individuals like Gary Barlow and Jimmy Carr. Especially given the current climate.

Britney better makes sure he is squeaky clean coming out with articles like that though.

Capitalism is 'morally wrong'. Footballers being paid thousands when people in the UK are stuggling to make ends meet is morally wrong....but beating Rangers alone with that stick is also 'morally wrong'.

Speirs flailing around hopelessly, clutching at this straw is simply pathetic.

[masonboyne 14]

Disrespecting Rememberance Day, The Armed Forces, turning a blind eye to the abuse of kids, witch hunt frenzies and MPs using tax payers cash to pay mortgages whilst stripping funds from the NHS are morally wrong. EBTs were legal & a matter of public record. If there was a moral or legal question it should have been raised when EBTs were first introduced not umpteen years later.

[77amurai 258]

by his logic anyone who has a tax free savings account like an ISA is morally wrong.

And Rangers were never charges with tax evasion, if HMRC had thought that, people would have been arrested and charged. At worst is was tax avoidance gone wrong.

Tax avoidance as a whole needs to go sharpish though surely?

[Edmiston Drive 3,846]

The farm may have for sale sign on it soon, the one in Ayrshire lol............

Song for a Creep..............

and this one just because I like it ..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9oJnIbOxI

[Big Al 55 9,281]

Capitalism is 'morally wrong'. Footballers being paid thousands when people in the UK are stuggling to make ends meet is morally wrong....but beating Rangers alone with that stick is also 'morally wrong'.

Speirs flailing around hopelessly, clutching at this straw is simply pathetic.

Again absolutely agree, all I said was its morally wrong IMO, nothing else.

[cushynumber 25,178]

Frankly I think tax avoidance is morally wrong - regardless of who is doing it and what they contribute to the county - you pay your dues. Should the govt be doing something about these loopholes? absolutley.

However, if this was the line that Spiers had taken over the last year and stuck to it then he wouldn't have the problems he does now. But here is the thing - he didn't. He took the TCB line that we were legally guilty of cheating - without any legal evidence and prior to any legal battle - and stuck to it through thick and thin.

He became a very vocal taig sympathising internet blogger who foresook any attempt at serious jounalist by jumping on the bandwagon and trying to demonise us.

Then when it was proved he was wrong he squirmed and then lied about it on national TV.

Putting this article out in an attempt to get back to "serious journalism" and twisting it around to try to put the focus on whether tax avoidance is "morally" right or wrong is pathetic - because thats not what he has written for the last 6 months. He wrote that Rangers were legally wrong and cheats. So please dont get caught up the "tax avoidance - right or wrong" arguament on here - because thats exactly what he wants you to do to deflect from his own involvement and subsequent lies.

The man has a cheek to bring up morals - he should question his own before bringing anybody elses into disrepute.

[77amurai 258]

Frankly I think tax avoidance is morally wrong - regardless of who is doing it and what they contribute to the county - you pay your dues. Should the govt be doing something about these loopholes? absolutley.

However, if this was the line that Spiers had taken over the last year and stuck to it then he wouldn't have the problems he does now. But here is the thing - he didn't. He took the TCB line that we were legally guilty of cheating - without any legal evidence and prior to any legal battle - and stuck to it through thick and thin.

He became a very vocal taig sympathising internet blogger who foresook any attempt at serious jounalist by jumping on the bandwagon and trying to demonise us.

Then when it was proved he was wrong he squirmed and then lied about it on national TV.

Putting this article out in an attempt to get back to "serious journalism" and twisting it around to try to put the focus on whether tax avoidance is "morally" right or wrong is pathetic - because thats not what he has written for the last 6 months. He wrote that Rangers were legally wrong and cheats. So please dont get caught up the "tax avoidance - right or wrong" arguament on here - because thats exactly what he wants you to do to deflect from his own involvement and subsequent lies.

The man has a cheek to bring up morals - he should question his own before bringing anybody elses into disrepute.

great post

[nelsonRFC82 305]

Knew it wouldn't be long before we heard this argument.

Why exactly does anyone have a moral obligation to pay taxes? I fail to see a link between taxes and morality...you can judge the character of a man by how much tax he pays?

Why are Rangers singled out, in comparison with the "aggressive tax avoidance" through investing in offshore film industry used by a host of Celtic players, staff & senior figures?

Where is the morality in allowing sensitive information to be spread in the public, with the sole aim of causing harm to Rangers?

Where is the morality in condemning someone as guilty without a trial?

Also a lesson in morality from journalists...what a fucking cheek!

In short, fuck off Spiers!

[Big Al 55 9,281]

Knew it wouldn't be long before we heard this argument.

Why exactly does anyone have a moral obligation to pay taxes?

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, I disagree.

We live in a society which is only possible because we all contribute a percentage of our earnings to put into the "pot". Why should being rich allow you to pay a much smaller percentage than the average working class person?

Similarly why should just because you earn 45k + mean you have to pay a larger percentage than the average working class person?

There should be a flat tax rate IMO. But I doubt here is the place to have that discussion.

[77amurai 258]

Knew it wouldn't be long before we heard this argument.

Why exactly does anyone have a moral obligation to pay taxes? I fail to see a link between taxes and morality...you can judge the character of a man by how much tax he pays?

Why are Rangers singled out, in comparison with the "aggressive tax avoidance" through investing in offshore film industry used by a host of Celtic players, staff & senior figures?

Where is the morality in allowing sensitive information to be spread in the public, with the sole aim of causing harm to Rangers?

Where is the morality in condemning someone as guilty without a trial?

Also a lesson in morality from journalists...what a fucking cheek!

In short, fuck off Spiers!

I agree with everything you say with the bit in bold aside.

You can't judge someone by how much tax they pay, but you can judge them for not paying their fair share.

The post by cushynumber sums up exactly why Spiers is just twisting and turning now.

[MrSifter 181]

Sorry but they are morally wrong IMO.

Why should you me and most others who are salaried have to pay at source, when those earnings millions per year are able to avoid tax on a massive scale.

Legal but morally wrong.

What's moral about taking someone else's hard earned money in the first place?

It's remarkable, politicians call people "greedy" for wanting to keep their own money but never accuse someone of being "greedy" for wishing to take someone else's money.

Tax can in no way be an issue of morality as the very premise of taxation in the first place is immoral.

[Ricky_ 893]

Sorry but they are morally wrong IMO.

Why should you me and most others who are salaried have to pay at source, when those earnings millions per year are able to avoid tax on a massive scale.

Legal but morally wrong.

Our players were salaried. They did pay at source.

the EBT schemes were perks outwith their standard wage (which they were likely taxed 40%).

Should also be worth noting that we competed most years in the champions league against teams with the ability to attract better players due to differing tax laws, meaning for the same rate of pay, players bank more if they play abroad.

I can understand the arguement with the likes of Starbucks. A multi-billion dollar corporation not paying a single penny in corporation tax is very wrong. But we as a club, and MIH since it's inception have contributed hundreds of millions to the public purse. By comparison, the EBT scheme saved £35 million in tax over a 10 year period. That amounts to £3.5m a year less than the millions upon millions we already pay through profits, and through paying players huge (regular) salaries.

[MrSifter 181]

You can't judge someone by how much tax they pay, but you can judge them for not paying their fair share.

"Fair share".

You can judge someone's character by how much they want to ponce off others.

Just because some consequential good comes from taxation makes it in no way moral or fair. There is no such thing as a "fair share".

[Big Al 55 9,281]

What's moral about taking someone else's hard earned money in the first place?

It's remarkable, politicians call people "greedy" for wanting to keep their own money but never accuse someone of being "greedy" for wishing to take someone else's money.

Tax can in no way be an issue of morality as the very premise of taxation in the first place is immoral.

Nonsense. Taxation is a necessary evil if you wish to live in a society such as ours. No one likes it and I understand why people wish to legally avoid paying their fair share, doesn't make taxation immoral.

Again MP's and morality are not a discussion for here.

[MrSifter 181]

Nonsense. Taxation is a necessary evil if you wish to live in a society such as ours. No one likes it and I understand why people wish to legally avoid paying their fair share, doesn't make taxation immoral.

Again MP's and morality are not a discussion for here.

The issue is paying taxes and morality.

What is complete nonsense is to say taxation is the reason we live in the society we do.

Individuals have the right to life, liberty and property. Any act which infringes upon these is immoral. Taxation infringes upon this and is therefore immoral.

Some people might actually be forced to pay for whatever services they use without taxation of other more industrious individuals. Heaven forfend that ever happens, we couldn't dare have such fairness.

[cushynumber 25,178]

The issue is paying taxes and morality.

What is complete nonsense is to say taxation is the reason we live in the society we do.

Individuals have the right to life, liberty and property. Any act which infringes upon these is immoral. Taxation infringes upon this and is therefore immoral.

Some people might actually be forced to pay for whatever services they use without taxation of other more industrious individuals. Heaven forfend that ever happens, we couldn't dare have such fairness.

Wrong - the issue is Spiers making the arguament about morality now - when for the last 6 months he made it about legality. Till he was proved wrong.

[Big Al 55 9,281]

The issue is paying taxes and morality.

What is complete nonsense is to say taxation is the reason we live in the society we do.

Individuals have the right to life, liberty and property. Any act which infringes upon these is immoral. Taxation infringes upon this and is therefore immoral.

Some people might actually be forced to pay for whatever services they use without taxation of other more industrious individuals. Heaven forfend that ever happens, we couldn't dare have such fairness.

You say it's immoral taking someone else hard earned money. If you want to live in this country you abide by our laws, generally, and more specifically with regards to this point; on taxation. Therefore it's not all your hard earned money, as you put it, only a percentage of it is yours. That is why taxation is not immoral IMO.

I gave my opinion, you gave yours. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours.

[MaddistonKnight 1,567]

Mr Sifter is correct. Morality and taxation are not bedfellows.

BUT Spiers is just a buffoon. Move the goals when you are gubbed why don't you!

Tax on goods and services, the individual has a choice. taking my money at source - no thanks. That's pinko talk!

[MrSifter 181]

Wrong - the issue is Spiers making the arguament about morality now - when for the last 6 months he made it about legality. Till he was proved wrong.

That's true, but the whole thing about tax becoming a moral issue is quite recent. It's part of a wider agenda being pushed by politicians simply because they spend too much of other people's money and always want more to waste.