Desperado Odios Creep Graham Spiers writes EBTs "morally wrong"

[nelsonRFC82 305]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, I disagree.

We live in a society which is only possible because we all contribute a percentage of our earnings to put into the "pot". Why should being rich allow you to pay a much smaller percentage than the average working class person?

Similarly why should just because you earn 45k + mean you have to pay a larger percentage than the average working class person?

There should be a flat tax rate IMO. But I doubt here is the place to have that discussion.

I was maybe typing a bit fast in my ire towards Britney, I meant to type why is it a moral obligation to maximise your tax contributions.

Tax avoidance is a right in this country and a just one IMO. In fact it is one exploited by the vast majority of people via ISAs or investing in a pension scheme etc. These reduce the amount of tax you would have ordinarily paid...is that immoral? Obviously on a corporate scale the amounts involved are much larger, but the morality of the action is the same...it is a desire to maximise one's income!

I would accept that outright lies and/or witholding of information to avoid taxes is a dubious act.

Rangers, however, openly declared their use of EBTs. Therefore I do not see there was anything immoral in their actions. The only question could have been of their legality, upon which it has been proven we were also correct.

[MrSifter 181]

You say it's immoral taking someone else hard earned money. If you want to live in this country you abide by our laws, generally, and more specifically with regards to this point; on taxation. Therefore it's not all your hard earned money, as you put it, only a percentage of it is yours. That is why taxation is not immoral IMO.

I gave my opinion, you gave yours. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours.

Taxation isn't immoral because you get to keep some of the money you've earned? You're actually arguing that?

What you've just said means our lives and labour belong to the state. You're arguing for slavery. Free range slaves on the tax farm.

[nelsonRFC82 305]

You say it's immoral taking someone else hard earned money. If you want to live in this country you abide by our laws, generally, and more specifically with regards to this point; on taxation. Therefore it's not all your hard earned money, as you put it, only a percentage of it is yours. That is why taxation is not immoral IMO.

I gave my opinion, you gave yours. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours.

Rangers did abide by the laws! If that is why taxation is not immoral, it so stands that is why legal tax avoidance schemes are not immoral?

[Devlin 222]

I think these trust funds look morally pretty dubious, and I say this in the full knowledge that the First Tier Tribunal has just found in favour of Rangers and the Murray Group.

Indeed, I’ve called EBTs “a form of cheating” and, while the context of that comment was specific, I can’t take the remark back.

EBTS benefited (in the case of Rangers) both the club and their employees, and were to the severe detriment of the Revenue.

In Rangers’ case, HMRC believed that upwards of £45m was due to them, and thus made their claim against the Ibrox club stretching back over 10 years.

It is little wonder that – the Rangers case being incidental to this - the UK government last year tightened up EBTs in what it called an “anti-avoidance” move.

We all know the buzzwords by now. There is “tax avoidance” which, during the Rangers saga, fell within the law (just), and there is “tax evasion” which, in the case of Rangers, HMRC felt had been the issue.

After an agonising period of investigation, and examining scores of witnesses, the tribunal finally announced by a majority verdict that the Murray Group and Rangers were in the clear.

There are two distinct issues for legitimate debate here. First, the legal argument, and second, the moral argument.

Legally, Rangers stand vindicated. There should be no dubiety cast on this (though some are trying). HMRC may well announce they will appeal the Rangers decision but, as things stand, within the legal framework, the club under Sir David Murray did nothing wrong.

Morally? Quite a few take a more dissenting stance. The EBTs system allowed for tax-avoidance on a grand scale – tens of millions of pounds – which might have been put to far greater use than lining the pockets of footballers and football clubs.

The moral cliché used here is “money for schools and hospitals”, which has come to sound over-earnest, but it still touches a truth.

Not for nothing were EBTs called “a legal tax loophole” because that is precisely what they were, prior to being reined in: they allowed for unpaid taxes via disguised remuneration which everybody knew would ordinarily have gone to the Revenue.

Are we allowed, even after Rangers’ legal victory, to cite this scheme as having been morally distasteful? I hope so, because that is how many have viewed this pocket-lining process.

Since the Rangers tribunal victory there has been crowing among many Ibrox fans about “the legal right” which the decision established. Others, however, still view the system exploited as “a moral wrong”. So the debate goes on.

Having said that, I don’t mind confessing I feel a measure of relief for Murray, the man who rode Rangers into the EBTs scheme in 2001.

The last two years have been a nightmare for Murray, who has been variously labelled “the man who ruined Rangers” or the person who was “duped” into selling to Craig Whyte.

The tribunal announcement on Tuesday must have been a huge personal relief to him, given the trashing he has faced, both from sections of the Scottish media as well as among certain Rangers fans groups.

In truth, Murray only ever wanted the best for Rangers. Back in his heyday he caught glimpses of European greatness on the Ibrox horizon, and it drove him on to ever greater – and wilder – ambition for his club.

These ambitions cost money, and Murray, hardly alone in British football, saw EBTs as a way of maximising his resources.

With this decision, the former Rangers owner has been spared a further humiliation, which in all probability would have scarred him.

When this whole mess clears, I hope Rangers emerge cleaner and stronger and ready for their assault back towards the top of Scottish football. Our game needs this club back in its rightful place.

Looks like Mr. Spiers is squirming. EBT's are cheating. They are morally wrong. They are 25% illegal.

I never liked Creep but i honestly gave him more credit than he's came out with here - he's obliterated what was left of his reputation.

Coming up next week in Spiers' on Sport: Abusing children and covering it up is morally wrong.

You've either broke the law or not. Spiers is a rat.

[Smile 26,610]

So is it not morally wrong to be lectured by a guy who falsely accused our club of cheating then lied about it.

I don't think Spiers is the type to lecture on morality, what next babysitting lessons from the McCanns.

[Ricky_ 893]

You've either broke the law or not. Spiers is a rat.

indeed, the "(just)" comment is so desperate it's unreal.

[bluenosebrad 452]

Devlin FULLSTOP Amen

[Big Al 55 9,281]

As I said IMO

Don't assume I'm some sort of socialist either, couldn't be further from the truth.

It's just how I feel about it.

[cushynumber 25,178]

I was maybe typing a bit fast in my ire towards Britney, I meant to type why is it a moral obligation to maximise your tax contributions.

Tax avoidance is a right in this country and a just one IMO. In fact it is one exploited by the vast majority of people via ISAs or investing in a pension scheme etc. These reduce the amount of tax you would have ordinarily paid...is that immoral? Obviously on a corporate scale the amounts involved are much larger, but the morality of the action is the same...it is a desire to maximise one's income!

I would accept that outright lies and/or witholding of information to avoid taxes is a dubious act.

Rangers, however, openly declared their use of EBTs. Therefore I do not see there was anything immoral in their actions. The only question could have been of their legality, upon which it has been proven we were also correct.

mmmm...

I see where you are going - but ISA's/pension funds are typically approved by the govt via a government allowance for your ISA. Shifting your earnings through 5 offshore accounts in order to say you made absolutley no profit in the UK seems...dubious (to use your word).

Going back to the OP though: Am I happy Rangers have been shown to have done nothing legally wrong? - as a Rangers supporter of course I am. Am I happy this cunt Spiers suddenly turns it all into a morality issue overnight? no... cause Speirs can take the moral high ground - because the "morality" arguament is subjective and there is no court in the land to find us not guilty..

[Mikhailichenko 90]

I've one question for anyone that thinks tax avoidance is 'morally wrong' - Do you pay more tax than you have to?

[Ricky_ 893]

I've one question for anyone that thinks tax avoidance is 'morally wrong' - Do you pay more tax than you have to?

not on your fuckin life - if i could find away to pay less tax, i'd grab it with both hands.

[cushynumber 25,178]

I should start a new post:

tax avoidance - its not cheating....but is it simulation?

[Leeds_Bear 8,112]

Credibility gone. No point reading anything he writes from now on.

What credibility?

[AlBear. 8,499]

All is fair in love, war, and taxation.

[Misteral 2,932]

So if Britney was offered one in his work he would turn it down on 'moral' grounds. Aye, right ye are.

[Devlin 222]

indeed, the "(just)" comment is so desperate it's unreal.

It is, i stopped reading the article after that, how can he even be employed?

[Back2BackChampions 31]

The video of him lying on Scotland tonight is on YouTube app most viewed videos! Now everyone worldwide can watch him squirm

[the paisley loyal 14]

He is trying to change the thread of his statement, that he believes EBT's are cheating, he is NOW saying that he meant that he believes, EBT's are morally wrong, so therefore in his eyes, that amounts to cheating.! Do you suspect that he might be a wee bit afraid that old Minty;s attack dog lawyers, just might be coming after him. ?? I am just loving watching that scumbag squirm. I can't wait until the first of the arseholes try to defend themselves in a court of law. As they say " THE CLOCK IS TICKING ". ! WATP.

[five stars 1,634]

The guy is pathetic. Gets caught lying on live TV, after having spent months bad mouthing Rangers over ebts. Then the next day has the cheek to question people morality!

[five stars 1,634]

Plenty of journalists are self employed and arranged there tax affairs to minimise their tax liability.

[MaddistonKnight 1,567]

I should start a new post:

tax avoidance - its not cheating....but is it simulation?

Nice one!