Protest against anti-British racism outside Parkhead?

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Yep. That's you proving my point.

As I said all along, they're legal definitions which don't apply here. Where does the song mention any racial or national group?

Regardless of whether the song is racist, I still don't understand what makes you think 'legal definitions' don't apply?

[scottylad72 19]

The perception that the " Famine song" was directed at the Irish is due to the press. I for one believe they are mischief makers and should be ignored. As it seems almost everyone has now bought into the idea that the "Famine song" is indeed directed at the Irish, rather than the plastic paddy mob. Fact is the song is called "why don't you go home". Or did I miss something?

Please enlighten me, anyone.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

The perception that the " Famine song" was directed at the Irish is due to the press. I for one believe they are mischief makers and should be ignored. As it seems almost everyone has now bought into the idea that the "Famine song" is indeed directed at the Irish, rather than the plastic paddy mob. Fact is the song is called "why don't you go home". Or did I miss something?

Please enlighten me, anyone.

Indeed, and they are helped by some so called bears who wrote and sung an alternative version which is clearly directed at the Irish....

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Yep. That's you proving my point.

As I said all along, they're legal definitions which don't apply here. Where does the song mention any racial or national group?

Regardless of whether the song is racist, I still don't understand what makes you think 'legal definitions' don't apply?

Because there are no legal precedents where a song which doesn't mention any such groups and contains no racial abuse can be deemed an offence in a court of law.

Had it been directed at an Irish family in their own house at 4 am in the morning, then there may be something of a case.

However, as it stands, it's aimed at Celtic fans, so there are no racial grounds to object.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Yep. That's you proving my point.

As I said all along, they're legal definitions which don't apply here. Where does the song mention any racial or national group?

Regardless of whether the song is racist, I still don't understand what makes you think 'legal definitions' don't apply?

Because there are no legal precedents where a song which doesn't mention any such groups and contains no racial abuse can be deemed an offence in a court of law.

Had it been directed at an Irish family in their own house at 4 am in the morning, then there may be something of a case.

However, as it stands, it's aimed at Celtic fans, so there are no racial grounds to object.

Well again, I don't know where you get that from, but the lack of a legal precedent simply means that a Court/ Judge is free to interpret as he/ she sees it.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

I don't see one mention of nationality there, "Briton", or should I call you Fern?

Some real links:

Equality and Human Rights Commission (incorporating the CRE).

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/your...cimination.aspx

The United Nations.

http://www.hri.org/docs/ICERD66.html

The Crown Prosecution Service

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecu...bcrbook.html#03

Unbelievable that you continue with this even though you are accusing Celtic fans of anti-British racism. How do you square that hypocrisy?

Yep. That's you proving my point.

As I said all along, they're legal definitions which don't apply here. Where does the song mention any racial or national group?

Stop squirming and moving the goal posts. You said that even if the FIO song was anti-Irish it still wouldn't be racist. That has been shown to be wrong. You also have no problem with accusing them of being anti-British *racists*.

Had the song been aimed at a racial group or an individual for his/her race, then it could be part of a racial offence.

The song, however, would still not be racist in itself, since it has absolutely no racial content. It would be the harassment, assault or breach of the peace which would vindicate the term"racist", rather than the non-racist words.

I have absolutely no problem in labelling IRA songs as racist, since they glorify the murders of people for no other reason than their British identity. TFIO doesn't even "celebrate" the famine.

Glorifying murders based on nationality can reasonably deemed to be racist, where as Scottish fans mocking Scottish fans with non-racist words can not.

Can't you see that difference or do you think that such glorification is on a par with mockery and sarcasm?

Whether the song is anti-Irish or not is a different issue and I have never said it is. I would say that insisting the song doesn't mention any group is a bit cowardly. The (Irish) famine is over, why don't you (Irish) go home (to Ireland). That is what is being said. Granted most of us think of them as pseudo/plastic Irish but others will see it as anti-Irish.

You've had to insert words there to make it look racist.

Why didn't you phrase it more accurately "The famine (you always sing about) is over. Why don't you (Scottish Celtic fan) go home(to the place you pretend you're from)?"?

I've remained consistent from the start.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Yep. That's you proving my point.

As I said all along, they're legal definitions which don't apply here. Where does the song mention any racial or national group?

Regardless of whether the song is racist, I still don't understand what makes you think 'legal definitions' don't apply?

Because there are no legal precedents where a song which doesn't mention any such groups and contains no racial abuse can be deemed an offence in a court of law.

Had it been directed at an Irish family in their own house at 4 am in the morning, then there may be something of a case.

However, as it stands, it's aimed at Celtic fans, so there are no racial grounds to object.

Well again, I don't know where you get that from, but the lack of a legal precedent simply means that a Court/ Judge is free to interpret as he/ she sees it.

But he would be unable to reasonably interpret it as targeting a racial group where no group is mentioned and the context is "Scottish football fans aimed at Scottish football fans".

[*Manticore* 1,893]

You've had to insert words there to make it look racist.

But Oleg that is exactly what a prosecutor would do if they were trying to prosecute such a case - argue that that is the meaning of the song.

Well not exactly, but you know what I mean.

The only way to know the outcome of such a case is for it to happen.

[Briton 394]

I don't see one mention of nationality there, "Briton", or should I call you Fern?

Some real links:

Equality and Human Rights Commission (incorporating the CRE).

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/your...cimination.aspx

The United Nations.

http://www.hri.org/docs/ICERD66.html

The Crown Prosecution Service

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecu...bcrbook.html#03

Unbelievable that you continue with this even though you are accusing Celtic fans of anti-British racism. How do you square that hypocrisy?

Yep. That's you proving my point.

As I said all along, they're legal definitions which don't apply here. Where does the song mention any racial or national group?

Stop squirming and moving the goal posts. You said that even if the FIO song was anti-Irish it still wouldn't be racist. That has been shown to be wrong. You also have no problem with accusing them of being anti-British *racists*.

Had the song been aimed at a racial group or an individual for his/her race, then it could be part of a racial offence.

The song, however, would still not be racist in itself, since it has absolutely no racial content. It would be the harassment, assault or breach of the peace which would vindicate the term"racist", rather than the non-racist words.

I have absolutely no problem in labelling IRA songs as racist, since they glorify the murders of people for no other reason than their British identity. TFIO doesn't even "celebrate" the famine.

Glorifying murders based on nationality can reasonably deemed to be racist, where as Scottish fans mocking Scottish fans with non-racist words can not.

Can't you see that difference or do you think that such glorification is on a par with mockery and sarcasm?

Whether the song is anti-Irish or not is a different issue and I have never said it is. I would say that insisting the song doesn't mention any group is a bit cowardly. The (Irish) famine is over, why don't you (Irish) go home (to Ireland). That is what is being said. Granted most of us think of them as pseudo/plastic Irish but others will see it as anti-Irish.

You've had to insert words there to make it look racist.

Why didn't you phrase it more accurately "The famine (you always sing about) is over. Why don't you (Scottish Celtic fan) go home(to the place you pretend you're from)?"?

I've remained consistent from the start.

Once more I have to point out you are avoiding the original point. Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks about the song. You said that even if it *was* anti-Irish it wouldn't be racist. That is obviously wrong as you admit yourself by saying their anti-British songs are racist. Put the shovel down.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

You've had to insert words there to make it look racist.

But Oleg that is exactly what a prosecutor would do if they were trying to prosecute such a case - argue that that is the meaning of the song.

Well not exactly, but you know what I mean.

The only way to know the outcome of such a case is for it to happen.

Then you'd be as well inserting the phrase "purple martian" since that's not in the song or inferred by the context, either.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

You've had to insert words there to make it look racist.

But Oleg that is exactly what a prosecutor would do if they were trying to prosecute such a case - argue that that is the meaning of the song.

Well not exactly, but you know what I mean.

The only way to know the outcome of such a case is for it to happen.

Then you'd be as well inserting the phrase "purple martian" since that's not in the song or inferred by the context, either.

No you wouldn't.

There is a clear Irish dimension to the song given its reference to the famine, and the ethnic origins of many of the celtic fans.

The case would be backed up by what they would call the 'full version', from you tube which they would play to the Court.

In the final analysis the case should fall in my view, but I just don't see how anybody can be certain, the law makes many perverse decisions.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Once more I have to point out you are avoiding the original point.

Please clarify what you're original point is, since lately your argument has just been a form of "Oh no it isn't".

Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks about the song.

Yes it does. Thoughts are inextricably linked to this and indeed most debates.

In fairness, I see that thought plays no part in your debating technique.

You said that even if it *was* anti-Irish it wouldn't be racist.

Now you're taking words out of context.

That is obviously wrong as you admit yourself by saying their anti-British songs are racist.

You're making the error of claiming that I'm equating two things which I explicitly said were different.

Put the shovel down.

I can't. You're the one holding it.

You should spend more time in the debating chamber. You clearly need the practice.

I await your next "Oh no it isn't" response, with not so bated breath. I would mock you for that standard, but it seems rather unfestive of me to do so when we are in the panto season.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

You've had to insert words there to make it look racist.

But Oleg that is exactly what a prosecutor would do if they were trying to prosecute such a case - argue that that is the meaning of the song.

Well not exactly, but you know what I mean.

The only way to know the outcome of such a case is for it to happen.

Then you'd be as well inserting the phrase "purple martian" since that's not in the song or inferred by the context, either.

No you wouldn't.

There is a clear Irish dimension to the song given its reference to the famine, and the ethnic origins of many of the celtic fans.

The case would be backed up by what they would call the 'full version', from you tube which they would play to the Court.

In the final analysis the case should fall in my view, but I just don't see how anybody can be certain, the law makes many perverse decisions.

An incredibly poor lawyer and a biased judge, can introduce an element of uncertainty into matters,.

However, I think a song sung by Scots mocking Scots who go on about famines and anti-British terrorism is highly unlikely to be penalised in a court. Any decent lawyer would bring that context into law, and the fact it's a retort to anti-British racism that hasn't undergone such scrutiny.

It's most likely to be seen as valid free speech in that context, if it even made it to court and avoided being flung out as soon as a judge reads the charge sheet.

In fact, with current problems of under capacity in the judicial system, I'd be surprised if any Procurator allowed this to go to court. In fact, I have not heard of one arrest for the song. However, I have heard of Celtic fans being arrested for IRA songs.

[Briton 394]

Once more I have to point out you are avoiding the original point.

Please clarify what you're original point is, since lately you're argument has just been a form of "Oh no it isn't".

Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks about the song.

Yes it does. Thoughts are inextricably linked to this and indeed most debates.

In fairness, I see that thought plays no part in your debating technique.

You said that even if it *was* anti-Irish it wouldn't be racist.

Now you're taking words out of context.

That is obviously wrong as you admit yourself by saying their anti-British songs are racist.

You're making an error of claiming that I'm equating two things which I explicitly said were different.

Put the shovel down.

I can't. You're the one holding it.

You should spend more time in the debating chamber. You clearly need the practice.

I await your next "Oh no it isn't" response, with not so bated breath. I would mock you for that standard, but it seems rather unfestive of me to do so when we are in the panto season.

You can squirm and wriggle, go off on tangents, play all the diversionary games you like, but I'm going to keep bringing you back to the original point. Nothing has been taken out of context.

You said that even if TFO song *was* anti-Irish it wouldn't be racist. That is wrong. It's not just me saying it. You corroborate the fact with your saying that their anti-British songs are racist.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Why don't you two go outside and settle it mano a mano.

[Steely 58]

Why don't you two go outside and settle it mano a mano.

I was going to say that

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Oleg I respectfully disagree - Manti has already alluded to the facts I would have presented.

The other thing I would point out....if the song is directed at pseudo Irish Scots as many seem to be saying...then by the original arguement presented (you cannot be racist against your own race) how can we accuse Tims who are British by definition (whether they like it or not) of anti British racism ?

All that said I would support you in all your attempts to turn the focus on them rather than us. As I said all along we need to stand on solid ground to defend the club - I dont think the Famine song provides such ground.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Why don't you two go outside and settle it mano a mano.

Who would he bring?

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Once more I have to point out you are avoiding the original point.

Please clarify what you're original point is, since lately you're argument has just been a form of "Oh no it isn't".

Doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks about the song.

Yes it does. Thoughts are inextricably linked to this and indeed most debates.

In fairness, I see that thought plays no part in your debating technique.

You said that even if it *was* anti-Irish it wouldn't be racist.

Now you're taking words out of context.

That is obviously wrong as you admit yourself by saying their anti-British songs are racist.

You're making an error of claiming that I'm equating two things which I explicitly said were different.

Put the shovel down.

I can't. You're the one holding it.

You should spend more time in the debating chamber. You clearly need the practice.

I await your next "Oh no it isn't" response, with not so bated breath. I would mock you for that standard, but it seems rather unfestive of me to do so when we are in the panto season.

You can squirm and wriggle, go off on tangents, play all the diversionary games you like, but I'm going to keep bringing you back to the original point. Nothing has been taken out of context.

You said that even if TFO song *was* anti-Irish it wouldn't be racist. That is wrong. It's not just me saying it. You corroborate the fact with your saying that their anti-British songs are racist.

I've stuck to my words. You're only twisting words.

If you wish to continue any debate, then stick to what I say. There's no point in responding to your falsehoods.

[Briton 394]

Why don't you two go outside and settle it mano a mano.

It's settled but it was more mano to boyo.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Oleg I respectfully disagree - Manti has already alluded to the facts I would have presented.

The other thing I would point out....if the song is directed at pseudo Irish Scots as many seem to be saying...then by the original arguement presented (you cannot be racist against your own race) how can we accuse Tims who are British by definition (whether they like it or not) of anti British racism ?

...because they're supporting Irish racist murderers who targeted people for no other reason than their Britishness.

All that said I would support you in all your attempts to turn the focus on them rather than us. As I said all along we need to stand on solid ground to defend the club - I dont think the Famine song provides such ground.

I don't see how TFIO would find its way past so many legal hurdles to a court room. It's far too ambiguous and inoffensive, and the context doesn't clear that up in any way which would justify the accusations.

[OlegKuznetsov 10,816]

Why don't you two go outside and settle it mano a mano.

It's settled but it was more mano to boyo.

At least you admit it. That's the first step in any development.

[Briton 394]

Why don't you two go outside and settle it mano a mano.

It's settled but it was more mano to boyo.

At least you admit it. That's the first step in any development.

So predictable sonny.

[Guest Andypendek]

Could it be fairly said that both Oleg and Briton have logical, legally presentable cases and that in itself shows how murky the legal waters are in which we threaten to swim?

I don't trust the judicial system to give a fair verdict - Oleg says he doubts it would even make the courts; in an ideal world that would be correct, they would be concerned with such trifles as murder etc. But do we want to take the chance?

I think the famine song really wound up timothy to the nth degree...it was an absolute peach which pissed off every tim in the media as well. To quote Kenneth Williams in 'Carry on Matron' : 'Alright! You've had your fun!!' Time to be sensible (a Rangers trait) and think up another one. Bob and weave, duck and dodge. If we keep presenting them with the famine target sooner or later someone will hit it.

After all, this is timothy we're talking about. The list of nerves we can touch is, frankly, inexhaustable.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Could it be fairly said that both Oleg and Briton have logical, legally presentable cases and that in itself shows how murky the legal waters are in which we threaten to swim?

I don't trust the judicial system to give a fair verdict - Oleg says he doubts it would even make the courts; in an ideal world that would be correct, they would be concerned with such trifles as murder etc. But do we want to take the chance?

I think the famine song really wound up timothy to the nth degree...it was an absolute peach which pissed off every tim in the media as well. To quote Kenneth Williams in 'Carry on Matron' : 'Alright! You've had your fun!!' Time to be sensible (a Rangers trait) and think up another one. Bob and weave, duck and dodge. If we keep presenting them with the famine target sooner or later someone will hit it.

After all, this is timothy we're talking about. The list of nerves we can touch is, frankly, inexhaustable.

Good point - lets move on!