The Rangers Fan of 2008 is a strange breed and one I often fail to recognise

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

That would tie in with what most historians have said. That this situation arose around the time of WWI.

I think we have to be careful here.....there is a difference between Rangers assimilation of a Protestant and Unionist identity.....whilst the 2 tend to be inter-related they are still however separate in nature.

There is little doubt 1912 was significant....2 major occurences outside football - Harland & Wolff acquiring a shipyard in Govan and the ongoing Home Rule crisis in Northen Ireland. After WW1 Graham Walker comments that the Union Flag was much in evidence at Ibrox.

I do believe that Sir JUP stamped a very protestant identity on Rangers once he had secured the chairmainship of the club....though I think his influence in that direction would have been exerted earlier. It is my opinion that we were leaning towards a strong Protestant identity long before we established a Unionsit identity.

A number of historians allude to the fact that aside from his personal beliefs...Sir JUP saw the development of a Protestant identity within Rangers as financially prudent.

I firmly believe that Rangers adopted a Protestant identity before a Unionist one. I also believe from the evidence available that Sir JUP stamped a Protestant identity on a football club which already had significant leanings in that direction.

[KingKai 439]

I have lived outside Scotland for 26 of the last 29 years.

When I left originally in 1979 I am sure EVERY teams fans sang to the other 'Go home ya h***"

I remember singing it myself when we played the Bheggars.

Does anyone know how it somehow became just Rangers fans who were given the name 'h***'?

[Guest Andypendek]

That would tie in with what most historians have said. That this situation arose around the time of WWI.

I think we have to be careful here.....there is a difference between Rangers assimilation of a Protestant and Unionist identity.....whilst the 2 tend to be inter-related they are still however separate in nature.

There is little doubt 1912 was significant....2 major occurences outside football - Harland & Wolff acquiring a shipyard in Govan and the ongoing Home Rule crisis in Northen Ireland. After WW1 Graham Walker comments that the Union Flag was much in evidence at Ibrox.

I do believe that Sir JUP stamped a very protestant identity on Rangers once he had secured the chairmainship of the club....though I think his influence in that direction would have been exerted earlier. It is my opinion that we were leaning towards a strong Protestant identity long before we established a Unionsit identity.

A number of historians allude to the fact that aside from his personal beliefs...Sir JUP saw the development of a Protestant identity within Rangers as financially prudent.

I firmly believe that Rangers adopted a Protestant identity before a Unionist one. I also believe from the evidence available that Sir JUP stamped a Protestant identity on a football club which already had significant leanings in that direction.

I'm happy to go along with the 1stWW as the starting point for the Protestant identity. How about a date of 1918, as it would be in poor taste to imagine people quibbling over such things during the war years?

Everyone's a winner. Y'all get to have the strong identity there for ages, while I can point to @45 years of less strong/no identity.

Though I'd definitely claim the last 20 years as being one of weak association. The Ulster connection kept the flame visible but there's no doubt in my mind at all that many claiming such an identity didn't go to church the next morning, so it can't count.

Isla, let's take a look at the scores on the doors:

Strong Identity - 70 years

Weak identity - 65 years

I'd actually claim the last 30 years if I was going to be honest, that's from 1978 to 2008: hardly an epoch of religious revival in the Church of Scotland, but I realise that would make the score in my favour and no-one's going to have that!

And as a reminder, all of the above is not to say we never had such an identity, or that we don't have pure hunners of Protestant supporters just now. It's in defiance of suggestions that 'we've always had and always will had that identity, and that's what made us winners.'

[WVB 2,560]

And as a reminder, all of the above is not to say we never had such an identity, or that we don't have pure hunners of Protestant supporters just now.

:mutley:

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

That would tie in with what most historians have said. That this situation arose around the time of WWI.

I think we have to be careful here.....there is a difference between Rangers assimilation of a Protestant and Unionist identity.....whilst the 2 tend to be inter-related they are still however separate in nature.

There is little doubt 1912 was significant....2 major occurences outside football - Harland & Wolff acquiring a shipyard in Govan and the ongoing Home Rule crisis in Northen Ireland. After WW1 Graham Walker comments that the Union Flag was much in evidence at Ibrox.

I do believe that Sir JUP stamped a very protestant identity on Rangers once he had secured the chairmainship of the club....though I think his influence in that direction would have been exerted earlier. It is my opinion that we were leaning towards a strong Protestant identity long before we established a Unionsit identity.

A number of historians allude to the fact that aside from his personal beliefs...Sir JUP saw the development of a Protestant identity within Rangers as financially prudent.

I firmly believe that Rangers adopted a Protestant identity before a Unionist one. I also believe from the evidence available that Sir JUP stamped a Protestant identity on a football club which already had significant leanings in that direction.

I'm happy to go along with the 1stWW as the starting point for the Protestant identity. How about a date of 1918, as it would be in poor taste to imagine people quibbling over such things during the war years?

Everyone's a winner. Y'all get to have the strong identity there for ages, while I can point to @45 years of less strong/no identity.

Though I'd definitely claim the last 20 years as being one of weak association. The Ulster connection kept the flame visible but there's no doubt in my mind at all that many claiming such an identity didn't go to church the next morning, so it can't count.

Isla, let's take a look at the scores on the doors:

Strong Identity - 70 years

Weak identity - 65 years

I'd actually claim the last 30 years if I was going to be honest, that's from 1978 to 2008: hardly an epoch of religious revival in the Church of Scotland, but I realise that would make the score in my favour and no-one's going to have that!

And as a reminder, all of the above is not to say we never had such an identity, or that we don't have pure hunners of Protestant supporters just now. It's in defiance of suggestions that 'we've always had and always will had that identity, and that's what made us winners.'

Sorry andyP - but I have to agree with you again - except that you could concede a few more years cause the 'protestant' identity gets weaker every day and in a few years it wont matter as we will be all inclusive. (sounds like a bargain)

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Well I am being honest.

I don't know exactly what Ure Primroses' influence on the Club was.

IIRC he became 'Club Patron' in 1888 and Chairman in 1912.

Given his high profile in Orangeism/ Unionism it seems to me that the Club must have been at least leaning that way by 1888.

Can anyone provide evidence to the contrary?

Well obviously you can never prove a negative and nobody is required to provide evidence to counter any claim. While I wouldn't be surprised if Rangers were leaning that way by the time he became chairman, there is no evidence that Rangers were linked to Orangeism/ Unionism, or regarded as a 'Protestant club', before the formation of Celtic.

That depends whatinterpretation you put on Ure Primrose's appointment as Club Patron.

It can be argued that it is such evidence, although clearly not proof.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

just read this article about primrose.

Religious rivalry

Strong sectarian rivalry still exists in certain sectors of the population, largely as a result of mass immigration to the city from Ireland in the 19th Century. The sporting rivalry between the supporters of Celtic and Rangers has an underlying religious basis for some people. Large numbers of Celtic Supporters are drawn from the Irish and Roman Catholic communities, while Rangers supporters are almost exclusively non-Catholics. This division dates from Rangers' policy to not sign Catholics as players after John Ure Primrose took over as Chairman of the club. Primrose was a noted Unionist politician and has been described as a "bigot". This practice continued at the club for 76 years until 1988. Celtic never adopted such a policy, hence a somewhat more diverse support.

That would tie in with what most historians have said. That this situation arose around the time of WWI.

I would be interested to see your evidence for that statement.

To suggest that the 'division' dates from anything other than the formation of steak pie fc is nonsense.

From 1888 the only issues to be decided were who would be their main opposition and how would they go about it.

[Guest Andypendek]

And as a reminder, all of the above is not to say we never had such an identity, or that we don't have pure hunners of Protestant supporters just now.

I'd like to claim some credit for a bit of creative writing, WVB, but I never even noticed the 'h**' connotation. My bad!

Sorry andyP - but I have to agree with you again - except that you could concede a few more years cause the 'protestant' identity gets weaker every day and in a few years it wont matter as we will be all inclusive. (sounds like a bargain)

You're probably right, but when you're trying to persuade people of something they'd rather not believe, it doesn't help if you rub their faces in it. The gentle art of persuasion', I can't think where that quote comes from.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

That would tie in with what most historians have said. That this situation arose around the time of WWI.

I think we have to be careful here.....there is a difference between Rangers assimilation of a Protestant and Unionist identity.....whilst the 2 tend to be inter-related they are still however separate in nature.

There is little doubt 1912 was significant....2 major occurences outside football - Harland & Wolff acquiring a shipyard in Govan and the ongoing Home Rule crisis in Northen Ireland. After WW1 Graham Walker comments that the Union Flag was much in evidence at Ibrox.

I do believe that Sir JUP stamped a very protestant identity on Rangers once he had secured the chairmainship of the club....though I think his influence in that direction would have been exerted earlier. It is my opinion that we were leaning towards a strong Protestant identity long before we established a Unionsit identity.

A number of historians allude to the fact that aside from his personal beliefs...Sir JUP saw the development of a Protestant identity within Rangers as financially prudent.

I firmly believe that Rangers adopted a Protestant identity before a Unionist one. I also believe from the evidence available that Sir JUP stamped a Protestant identity on a football club which already had significant leanings in that direction.

I'm happy to go along with the 1stWW as the starting point for the Protestant identity. How about a date of 1918, as it would be in poor taste to imagine people quibbling over such things during the war years?

Everyone's a winner. Y'all get to have the strong identity there for ages, while I can point to @45 years of less strong/no identity.

Though I'd definitely claim the last 20 years as being one of weak association. The Ulster connection kept the flame visible but there's no doubt in my mind at all that many claiming such an identity didn't go to church the next morning, so it can't count.

Isla, let's take a look at the scores on the doors:

Strong Identity - 70 years

Weak identity - 65 years

I'd actually claim the last 30 years if I was going to be honest, that's from 1978 to 2008: hardly an epoch of religious revival in the Church of Scotland, but I realise that would make the score in my favour and no-one's going to have that!

And as a reminder, all of the above is not to say we never had such an identity, or that we don't have pure hunners of Protestant supporters just now. It's in defiance of suggestions that 'we've always had and always will had that identity, and that's what made us winners.'

My good friend...I disagree wholeheartedly.

I believe that the very Catholic/Irish repuplican mindset of our rivals had already been well established well before 1914.

They were already referred to in the press as "the Irishmen" by the turn of the century and a source of much humour by press cartoonists.

Scotland looked for a vehicle to express the identity of the Protestant Scot.....Rangers were that vehicle.

I believe all this happened well before 1914.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

h**ners - I missed that as well - thanks WVB for picking it up!

[rossDas 1,071]

That would tie in with what most historians have said. That this situation arose around the time of WWI.

I think we have to be careful here.....there is a difference between Rangers assimilation of a Protestant and Unionist identity.....whilst the 2 tend to be inter-related they are still however separate in nature.

There is little doubt 1912 was significant....2 major occurences outside football - Harland & Wolff acquiring a shipyard in Govan and the ongoing Home Rule crisis in Northen Ireland. After WW1 Graham Walker comments that the Union Flag was much in evidence at Ibrox.

I do believe that Sir JUP stamped a very protestant identity on Rangers once he had secured the chairmainship of the club....though I think his influence in that direction would have been exerted earlier. It is my opinion that we were leaning towards a strong Protestant identity long before we established a Unionsit identity.

A number of historians allude to the fact that aside from his personal beliefs...Sir JUP saw the development of a Protestant identity within Rangers as financially prudent.

I firmly believe that Rangers adopted a Protestant identity before a Unionist one. I also believe from the evidence available that Sir JUP stamped a Protestant identity on a football club which already had significant leanings in that direction.

I'm happy to go along with the 1stWW as the starting point for the Protestant identity. How about a date of 1918, as it would be in poor taste to imagine people quibbling over such things during the war years?

Everyone's a winner. Y'all get to have the strong identity there for ages, while I can point to @45 years of less strong/no identity.

Though I'd definitely claim the last 20 years as being one of weak association. The Ulster connection kept the flame visible but there's no doubt in my mind at all that many claiming such an identity didn't go to church the next morning, so it can't count.

Isla, let's take a look at the scores on the doors:

Strong Identity - 70 years

Weak identity - 65 years

I'd actually claim the last 30 years if I was going to be honest, that's from 1978 to 2008: hardly an epoch of religious revival in the Church of Scotland, but I realise that would make the score in my favour and no-one's going to have that!

And as a reminder, all of the above is not to say we never had such an identity, or that we don't have pure hunners of Protestant supporters just now. It's in defiance of suggestions that 'we've always had and always will had that identity, and that's what made us winners.'

My good friend...I disagree wholeheartedly.

I believe that the very Catholic/Irish repuplican mindset of our rivals had already been well established well before 1914.

They were already referred to in the press as "the Irishmen" by the turn of the century and a source of much humour by press cartoonists.

Scotland looked for a vehicle to express the identity of the Protestant Scot.....Rangers were that vehicle.

I believe all this happened well before 1914.

The film Gangs of New York would certainly back that view, even if the source of information is slightly dubious.

For anybody who hasn't seen the film it centers around Protestants battling with Irish Catholics in the mid 19th century. I'm going to do a bit of research on it to see how loosely it was based.

[Guest Andypendek]

D'artgnan: I could also accept that.

The only part I would disagree with is that, in that era, a country looking to express the ID of the Prod Scot (sorry to abbreviate) need look no further than their local Kirk, many of which would have bene freshly built with donations from the leading capitalist lackey running dog swine of the day, scared of their impending meeting with the Great Architect. Football, while immensely popular, was entirely the working man's game and as such 'beneath' those whose identity we've become rather attached to; to wit, the successful Edwardian man of morals, such as Ure Primrose.

I'd also suggest that while your depiction of the welcome given to the dreadful types from across the water is completely accurate, it's hardly something we should wish to celebrate. Even those who bitterly regret their coming, on account of the years and years (and years to come, no doubt) of moaning, whinging, and general bringing down of society, such as myself, surely wouldn't want to see a return to the depiction of Irishman as savage? It was of it's time, but not something worth celebrating nowadays. Were we to go down that road we'd be little better than history-obsessed Oirishmen amongst us.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

The film Gangs of New York would certainly back that view, even if the source of information is slightly dubious.

For anybody who hasn't seen the film it centers around Protestants battling with Irish Catholics in the mid 19th century. I'm going to do a bit of research on it to see how loosely it was based.

There was a riot in NY in the 19th Century following a decision to hold an Orange Parade.

Nothing changes, the fenians decided to disrupt it and had a riot.

I have a copy of a terrific contemporary cartoon, I'll try and look it out.

[Guest Andypendek]

At least they had a reason for doing it...nowadays it's just an excuse for some drunken shouting between inadequates.

[WVB 2,560]

I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that when Sir JUP was made club patron, it was after a period of time where he would have had already influenced the club in a manner viewed as positive by those who came before him. Otherwise, are we saying that Sir JUP brought his personal politics to the club after being made Chairman?

Basically, i am suggesting that Sir JUPs' influence on The Rangers began some time before his tenure as Chairman, and was obviously welcomed by a majority at board level.

As an atheist who thinks religion is for the lame-brained (no-offence meant, thats just my honest feeling on the subject due to personal experience), i have no problem with the clubs Protestant/Unionist identity. It existed long before me & long may it continue.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

The film Gangs of New York would certainly back that view, even if the source of information is slightly dubious.

For anybody who hasn't seen the film it centers around Protestants battling with Irish Catholics in the mid 19th century. I'm going to do a bit of research on it to see how loosely it was based.

There was a riot in NY in the 19th Century following a decision to hold an Orange Parade.

Nothing changes, the fenians decided to disrupt it and had a riot.

I have a copy of a terrific contemporary cartoon, I'll try and look it out.

Nothing to do really with the thread but I worked in the US for 18 months. - took my wife over (For those who dont know she is from Omagh, and a GOOD ulsterwoman. I had hired a woman to run the US operation and she decided to throw a party for my wife coming oover and knowing she was 'Irish (!!) and not realising she was (Very much) British had hired a 'Irish' band from New York to play (as a surprise) but she told me on the day (as she wanted to know her favourite tunes) . We had to cancel once we had had a chat !! as 'h***' would not have really appreciated it!

I also hated St. Paddys day over there they just did NOT get it!

[minstral 5,375]

rangers had close links with the clyde shipyard workers. which employed skilled protestant workers many from ulster, from as early as 18-86.

[Guest Andypendek]

They also had close links with the Ayrshire coalfield villages, but we can't say the club has an Ayrshire idenity.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

They also had close links with the Ayrshire coalfield villages, but we can't say the club has an Ayrshire idenity.

Are you saying we should have signed Andy Cole ?

Sorry..I'll get ma coat.

[Guest Andypendek]

Grooooooooooooooooooooooann

[*Manticore* 1,893]

They also had close links with the Ayrshire coalfield villages, but we can't say the club has an Ayrshire idenity.

Are you saying we should have signed Andy Cole ?

Sorry..I'll get ma coat.

In line with our Monarchism maybe Old King Coal would be the one?

I'll deffo get ma coat.....

[WVB 2,560]

They also had close links with the Ayrshire coalfield villages, but we can't say the club has an Ayrshire idenity.

Are you saying we should have signed Andy Cole ?

Sorry..I'll get ma coat.

In line with our Monarchism maybe Old King Coal would be the one?

I'll deffo get ma coat.....

I'm sure you came in wearing an anorak.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Anoraks are the new Rock and Roll.

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,086]

They also had close links with the Ayrshire coalfield villages, but we can't say the club has an Ayrshire idenity.

Links ? So we were close to sausages at one time then ?

[WVB 2,560]

They also had close links with the Ayrshire coalfield villages, but we can't say the club has an Ayrshire idenity.

Links ? So we were close to sausages at one time then ?

We were utter mince for several years when i was a lad!