The Rangers Fan of 2008 is a strange breed and one I often fail to recognise

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

There's no need for that.

BP9, I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'Plastic Prods' because I think these are genuinely held beliefs, esp. in the area of links with Ulster - a lot of people do have family connections etc. My objection is that connection being foisted on others; the argument that one group of fan can have a link and celebrate it, while others don't need to bother is naive.

I have a lot of time for the Ulter folk, so perhaps that came across badly, my wife is from Omagh after all, but bascially I think we agree - we dont feel comfortable in having our religion, or politics being defined, by others, based on the team we love and support. Those causes have nothing to do with Football and its the football I love.

[WVB 2,560]

And a certain bloody-mindedness also! It is hard wired into the Scottish psyche that we don't take orders from any old tosspot.

Speak for yourself. I know my place.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

But how can a football club retain an identity with a religion which is - and I mean no offence - withering away? It defies logic that people are more willing to express their religious identity through a Saturday than a Sunday.

Its a good question Andy and I certainly dont have all the answers.....what I would say though as I alluded to earlier - there is quite a difference in religion and our Protestant idenity....and I will try to expand on that further.

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself. Our songs (which are one of the clearest indications of a willingness to keep that identity alive ) are not hymns or psalms but more a celebration of the history of a people/culture.

The Sash is a celebration of Protestant brotherhood and kinship, Derrys Walls a song reminding us of Protestant heroics/defiance/steadfastness. Our songs which offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

I think that heroism, brotherhood and steadfastness will always be things men aspire to regardless of religion's "popularity".

As Manti says these songs if anything are increasing in popularity amongst our support. Whilst religion may be in decline, the expression of cultural identity most certainly is not and perhaps the popoularity of these songs is in keeping with people's desire to express a cultural...or as IB put it so well in another thread..."tribal identity".

While many people criticise us for our song repetoire...and some even on here suggest we should drop them and "move on" I find it refreshing that we as a support celebrate older values such as bravery...loyalty...honour...steadfastness and kinship, particularly in a world today where these values are so often replaced by cowardice, lies, spin and distinct lack of dignity and honour.

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

I agree with AndyP - great response - Do we really want to be 'Plastic Protestants' where we take that stance just because 'they' want to be Catholic ? Support Ulster because 'they' follow the South, are Unionist just because our colours match the UK flag. Me I want to support the football team!

I agree with you on the Catholic/Protestant comparison, but I think it's an affinity and kinship with our brothers in Ulster more than supporting them.

But your Eire/UK comparison is baffling. 'They' are from the UK and purport a desire to be all things Oirish. I on the other hand stand up for my nation because it is my nation not because the colours happen to coincide!

The problem is BP9, the scum are obsessed with attacking the whole of the UK not just Rangers supporters.

They are the enemy, if they eventually got Rangers destroyed, their campaign would then turn to the next thing, which, in their eyes represents the UK.

They are nothing but an offshoot of the PIRA, they employ the same tactics and use the same propaganda to achieve their goals.

The more people who take this non-committal stance regarding the politics and religion of RFC, the closer we come to extinction.

TBH BL I just cant agree with the stuff about Celtic at all - I only see them as an enemy in terms of football - I dont see them as a movement or a cause, just sad for supporting 'them' and it is the type of statements you make here that are utter nonsense if you actually believe them. I dont think Celtic are a 'cause' out to destroy the UK, they are a football club and its extrordinary if you actually believe these statements. Celtic are not a threat to the UK and Rangers are not the vehicle with which to fight them.

[BCLoyal9 53]

And a certain bloody-mindedness also! It is hard wired into the Scottish psyche that we don't take orders from any old tosspot.

Speak for yourself. I know my place.

There is alot to be said for the man who can say "I won't" when everyone else is saying "You must".

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I have a lot of time for the Ulter folk, so perhaps that came across badly, my wife is from Omagh after all, but bascially I think we agree - we dont feel comfortable in having our religion, or politics being defined, by others, based on the team we love and support.

Neither do I. I accept that our support is a broad church, but continue to recognise that we have a strong Protestant/Unionist identity which is not going to go away simply because you, personally, dont like it BP.

What I continue to find extraordinary..is that many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

Those causes have nothing to do with Football and its the football I love.

You keep playing that record BP.

What you fail to accept is that others from outside our club...and outside football... have recognised and accepted that some football clubs throughout the world transcend sporting boundaries to represent a particular culture or race.

Im particularly glad that our club is one of them.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I dont think Celtic are a 'cause' out to destroy the UK, they are a football club and its extrordinary if you actually believe these statements

I would not for a moment suggest that they are out to destroy the UK.

However your comment that they are a football club needs to be put in context. For many they are the representation of the immigrant Irish in Scotland - and are thus far more than a football club.

Jospeh Bradley asserts that certain football clubs throughout the world are a nationalistic, political and cultural repository.

Celtic are one of them. We are another.

You may not like it....and you may not agree with it. But I do not believe it will change.

[WVB 2,560]

And a certain bloody-mindedness also! It is hard wired into the Scottish psyche that we don't take orders from any old tosspot.

Speak for yourself. I know my place.

There is alot to be said for the man who can say "I won't" when everyone else is saying "You must".

There certainly is.

A lot more should be said too. Murdered by our own government for saying "I won't".

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Can't beleve Andy managed to get bumsex into this thread

[Boab 73]

Can't beleve Andy managed to get bumsex into this thread

As impressive as Mister C managing to get Nationalism into a thread?

[BCLoyal9 53]

And a certain bloody-mindedness also! It is hard wired into the Scottish psyche that we don't take orders from any old tosspot.

Speak for yourself. I know my place.

There is alot to be said for the man who can say "I won't" when everyone else is saying "You must".

There certainly is.

A lot more should be said too. Murdered by our own government for saying "I won't".

Whatever people might say about him , King Rat was certainly not the stooge of any Government and held fast to what he believed in. The state rubbed him out because of the reasons that you allude to , and also probably because he "knew" alot.

A quote from Billy , and one which stands out: "...you have to ask yourself , 'For whom are they doing this?' "

[Guest Andypendek]

Big reply full of quotes coming up:

Tontospal:

we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. I'm a fairly sociable person, but I reckon I know about at most 50 people or so I'd be willing to discuss this matter with frankly and openly: possibly you know more of the 200,000 odd who went to Manchester and can form a better opinion than I can. I speak for myself and no-one else.

I like the way you lump those who disagree with you in with the media agenda against us. Very subtle, I don't think. If you've read my posts I assume you can see I'm not a fuckwit and can form opinions of my own without having to consult Gerry, Hugh or Graham. Disagreeing with you on this subject and following the 'mhedia' are totally different things and it's wrong of you to try to mix the 2, even it if suits your agenda.

I don't see it as pro-Protestant, in my time it's been expressed mainly through the medium of anti-popery (doesn't bother me...ridiculous sect and winds up timothy no end) and Irish stuff like Derry's Walls or The Sash. If every single poster on this board told me how close the bond is, I still wouldn't see why a Scottish club in Glasgow should be fixated with Irish stuff. It doesn't work for me, simple as that.

Then later:

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

Sorry to bust your bubble. I started going in 1985 and I haven't stopped yet...I still seem to be able to push the turnstile. Lucky I didn't injure me fingers with all that handwringing, eh? Or maybe you're a bit up yourself as the backbone of the club.

BP9 replied to my:

There's no need for that.

That was aimed at someone who was (yawn) calling him a tim.

D'Art writes:

many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

There's plenty on the handwringing side who loff eave the finger massaging for a second to wag a finger at traditionalists, it's true. I have no problem telling people I think they're wrong. But it's way off the mark to say the trads are accepting of others...in a reversal of Tontospal's opinion earlier, it's quite clear that those who frequent messageboards are vitriolically (sp?) opposed to progressives, both verbally and boringly often with big scary threats to knock sense into people. Can it be that D'Art is right and that most trads are tolerant of other views, and that the more extreme views on here are the minority? I like irony.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

There is alot to be said for the man who can say "I won't" when everyone else is saying "You must"

Amen.

[Guest Andypendek]

Can't beleve Andy managed to get bumsex into this thread

Yes, but in a classical and erudite manner, I think you'll find.

However, my pitiful attempt to steer the discussion away from Prod/not Prod and onto Man/boy prodding failed miserably.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Andrew...

Just a hunch....have you been partaking of the wicked liquor this evening ?

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Yes, but in a classical and erudite manner, I think you'll find.

Back in the day I believe it was always done in a classical and erudite manner.

[Guest Andypendek]

Just a hunch....have you been partaking of the wicked liquor this evening ?

<outraged> No more than usual!!

[Wreckedroy 33]

I grew up watching Rangers when there was little or no PC amongst football fans.

The Rangers support was predominately working class, male and protestant, although perhaps not orange or a church goer, they were certainly fiercely proud of our culture and traditions.

We were also united to the extent that it was all for one and one for all. You knew that if it went off at Easter Rd or Aberdeen that your fellow supporters would have your back and would not hesitate to help a bear or bears in need.

That support was moulded in the traditional 'No Surrender' mould and if noone liked us we certainly didn't care.

Fast forward to 2008 and that support is no more. Yes, a bastardised version exists but there is no way that anyone can claim it is united, has a No Surrender atittude or has anywhere near the same level of pride in the traditions and culture, without which Rangers could have ended up like Partick Thistle, Queens Park or, heaven forbid, Third Lanark.

Words fail me to describe our support's meek acceptance of:

the Rangers board and their 'grass a bear' lines;

the banning of songs that WE have all sung and were commonplace wherever we played or our fans got together;

the celtic mhedia bias;

the SPL/SFA treatment of Rangers through administrative and matchday officials;

the 'love-ins' with a celtc who despise us and have a dig at us at every opportunity, including their own AGM;

It shouldn't have come as a surprise but even I was stunned this morning to read Rangers fans backing the referees and officials and blaming the manager and players.

Don't get me wrong I am not delighted with our current manager and some of the squad but they are doing their best to win games and trophies only to be cheated by officials who are continually bending the rules to give celtc an advantage in the title race. It won them the title last season and it has given them a healthy lead despite losing the first old firm game of the season.

Incredibly there are now even Rangers fans who think we are paranoid and that Rangers should actually score 2 goals more than the opprosition to ensure that a referee/official doesn't deny us victory.

I could even accept the mistakes if:

a) the officials owned up to them in the light of TV evidence

b) the SPL/SFA actively punished officials for the mistakes they are making by demoting them or suspending them.

Rangers fans are being cheated through errors being allowed to happen and without any recourse.

Unadulterated Paranoid Pish. Were you even there?

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Big reply full of quotes coming up:

Tontospal:

we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. I'm a fairly sociable person, but I reckon I know about at most 50 people or so I'd be willing to discuss this matter with frankly and openly: possibly you know more of the 200,000 odd who went to Manchester and can form a better opinion than I can. I speak for myself and no-one else.

I like the way you lump those who disagree with you in with the media agenda against us. Very subtle, I don't think. If you've read my posts I assume you can see I'm not a fuckwit and can form opinions of my own without having to consult Gerry, Hugh or Graham. Disagreeing with you on this subject and following the 'mhedia' are totally different things and it's wrong of you to try to mix the 2, even it if suits your agenda.

I don't see it as pro-Protestant, in my time it's been expressed mainly through the medium of anti-popery (doesn't bother me...ridiculous sect and winds up timothy no end) and Irish stuff like Derry's Walls or The Sash. If every single poster on this board told me how close the bond is, I still wouldn't see why a Scottish club in Glasgow should be fixated with Irish stuff. It doesn't work for me, simple as that.

Then later:

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

Sorry to bust your bubble. I started going in 1985 and I haven't stopped yet...I still seem to be able to push the turnstile. Lucky I didn't injure me fingers with all that handwringing, eh? Or maybe you're a bit up yourself as the backbone of the club.

BP9 replied to my:

There's no need for that.

That was aimed at someone who was (yawn) calling him a tim.

D'Art writes:

many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

There's plenty on the handwringing side who loff eave the finger massaging for a second to wag a finger at traditionalists, it's true. I have no problem telling people I think they're wrong. But it's way off the mark to say the trads are accepting of others...in a reversal of Tontospal's opinion earlier, it's quite clear that those who frequent messageboards are vitriolically (sp?) opposed to progressives, both verbally and boringly often with big scary threats to knock sense into people. Can it be that D'Art is right and that most trads are tolerant of other views, and that the more extreme views on here are the minority? I like irony.

As always AndyP you make your arguments conscisely and well, and I hope its not to your detriment when I agree with you.

I also note that because I hold the 'handwringing or 'modern, view' people always assume I am a new supporter when I have held a season ticket scince 1986.

I have also noted that the 'trads' on here, in my perception, dont seem to be the warm open type to others views, I may have got them wrong but perhaps it is just the minority of the trads who give me a hard time ! (For those not on my wavelength please note the irony of the statement before replying) Boltonloyal - I dont think you even need to reply - your statements about Celtic show you are at the extreme of this debate and you make White Van Bear look like a modern handwringer.

[edranger 0]

Big reply full of quotes coming up:

Tontospal:

we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. I'm a fairly sociable person, but I reckon I know about at most 50 people or so I'd be willing to discuss this matter with frankly and openly: possibly you know more of the 200,000 odd who went to Manchester and can form a better opinion than I can. I speak for myself and no-one else.

I like the way you lump those who disagree with you in with the media agenda against us. Very subtle, I don't think. If you've read my posts I assume you can see I'm not a fuckwit and can form opinions of my own without having to consult Gerry, Hugh or Graham. Disagreeing with you on this subject and following the 'mhedia' are totally different things and it's wrong of you to try to mix the 2, even it if suits your agenda.

I don't see it as pro-Protestant, in my time it's been expressed mainly through the medium of anti-popery (doesn't bother me...ridiculous sect and winds up timothy no end) and Irish stuff like Derry's Walls or The Sash. If every single poster on this board told me how close the bond is, I still wouldn't see why a Scottish club in Glasgow should be fixated with Irish stuff. It doesn't work for me, simple as that.

Then later:

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

Sorry to bust your bubble. I started going in 1985 and I haven't stopped yet...I still seem to be able to push the turnstile. Lucky I didn't injure me fingers with all that handwringing, eh? Or maybe you're a bit up yourself as the backbone of the club.

BP9 replied to my:

There's no need for that.

That was aimed at someone who was (yawn) calling him a tim.

D'Art writes:

many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

There's plenty on the handwringing side who loff eave the finger massaging for a second to wag a finger at traditionalists, it's true. I have no problem telling people I think they're wrong. But it's way off the mark to say the trads are accepting of others...in a reversal of Tontospal's opinion earlier, it's quite clear that those who frequent messageboards are vitriolically (sp?) opposed to progressives, both verbally and boringly often with big scary threats to knock sense into people. Can it be that D'Art is right and that most trads are tolerant of other views, and that the more extreme views on here are the minority? I like irony.

As always AndyP you make your arguments conscisely and well, and I hope its not to your detriment when I agree with you.

I also note that because I hold the 'handwringing or 'modern, view' people always assume I am a new supporter when I have held a season ticket scince 1986.

I have also noted that the 'trads' on here, in my perception, dont seem to be the warm open type to others views, I may have got them wrong but perhaps it is just the minority of the trads who give me a hard time ! (For those not on my wavelength please note the irony of the statement before replying) Boltonloyal - I dont think you even need to reply - your statements about Celtic show you are at the extreme of this debate and you make White Van Bear look like a modern handwringer.

How dare you call any one else extreme when you use the racist word h** to your wife who comes from N.Ireland. Thats why most people treat you with the contempt you deserve BP9.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Big reply full of quotes coming up:

Tontospal:

we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. I'm a fairly sociable person, but I reckon I know about at most 50 people or so I'd be willing to discuss this matter with frankly and openly: possibly you know more of the 200,000 odd who went to Manchester and can form a better opinion than I can. I speak for myself and no-one else.

I like the way you lump those who disagree with you in with the media agenda against us. Very subtle, I don't think. If you've read my posts I assume you can see I'm not a fuckwit and can form opinions of my own without having to consult Gerry, Hugh or Graham. Disagreeing with you on this subject and following the 'mhedia' are totally different things and it's wrong of you to try to mix the 2, even it if suits your agenda.

I don't see it as pro-Protestant, in my time it's been expressed mainly through the medium of anti-popery (doesn't bother me...ridiculous sect and winds up timothy no end) and Irish stuff like Derry's Walls or The Sash. If every single poster on this board told me how close the bond is, I still wouldn't see why a Scottish club in Glasgow should be fixated with Irish stuff. It doesn't work for me, simple as that.

Then later:

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

Sorry to bust your bubble. I started going in 1985 and I haven't stopped yet...I still seem to be able to push the turnstile. Lucky I didn't injure me fingers with all that handwringing, eh? Or maybe you're a bit up yourself as the backbone of the club.

BP9 replied to my:

There's no need for that.

That was aimed at someone who was (yawn) calling him a tim.

D'Art writes:

many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

There's plenty on the handwringing side who loff eave the finger massaging for a second to wag a finger at traditionalists, it's true. I have no problem telling people I think they're wrong. But it's way off the mark to say the trads are accepting of others...in a reversal of Tontospal's opinion earlier, it's quite clear that those who frequent messageboards are vitriolically (sp?) opposed to progressives, both verbally and boringly often with big scary threats to knock sense into people. Can it be that D'Art is right and that most trads are tolerant of other views, and that the more extreme views on here are the minority? I like irony.

As always AndyP you make your arguments conscisely and well, and I hope its not to your detriment when I agree with you.

I also note that because I hold the 'handwringing or 'modern, view' people always assume I am a new supporter when I have held a season ticket scince 1986.

I have also noted that the 'trads' on here, in my perception, dont seem to be the warm open type to others views, I may have got them wrong but perhaps it is just the minority of the trads who give me a hard time ! (For those not on my wavelength please note the irony of the statement before replying) Boltonloyal - I dont think you even need to reply - your statements about Celtic show you are at the extreme of this debate and you make White Van Bear look like a modern handwringer.

How dare you call any one else extreme when you use the racist word h** to your wife who comes from N.Ireland. Thats why most people treat you with the contempt you deserve BP9.

Get it right - I call her h**s - we only became uptight at the word h** when they started on about fenians - that old tit-for-tat we get involved in. I do feel sorry if folks take offence at the word h**. My wife is Protestant (goes to church ) is from Northern Ireland and had a season ticket for 22 years, all her family are there - and neither she nor her family take any offence at the word so no need for you to defend her.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Get it right - I call her h*** - we only became uptight at the word h** when they started on about fenians - that old tit-for-tat we get involved in. I do feel sorry if folks take offence at the word h**. My wife is Protestant (goes to church ) is from Northern Ireland and had a season ticket for 22 years, all her family are there - and neither she nor her family take any offence at the word so no need for you to defend her.

I would respectfully suggest YOU get it right BP. I have detested to being referred to as a "h**" since the first time it was directed at me. And that was way way before the time scale you are alluding to.

[edranger 0]

Big reply full of quotes coming up:

Tontospal:

we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. I'm a fairly sociable person, but I reckon I know about at most 50 people or so I'd be willing to discuss this matter with frankly and openly: possibly you know more of the 200,000 odd who went to Manchester and can form a better opinion than I can. I speak for myself and no-one else.

I like the way you lump those who disagree with you in with the media agenda against us. Very subtle, I don't think. If you've read my posts I assume you can see I'm not a fuckwit and can form opinions of my own without having to consult Gerry, Hugh or Graham. Disagreeing with you on this subject and following the 'mhedia' are totally different things and it's wrong of you to try to mix the 2, even it if suits your agenda.

I don't see it as pro-Protestant, in my time it's been expressed mainly through the medium of anti-popery (doesn't bother me...ridiculous sect and winds up timothy no end) and Irish stuff like Derry's Walls or The Sash. If every single poster on this board told me how close the bond is, I still wouldn't see why a Scottish club in Glasgow should be fixated with Irish stuff. It doesn't work for me, simple as that.

Then later:

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

Sorry to bust your bubble. I started going in 1985 and I haven't stopped yet...I still seem to be able to push the turnstile. Lucky I didn't injure me fingers with all that handwringing, eh? Or maybe you're a bit up yourself as the backbone of the club.

BP9 replied to my:

There's no need for that.

That was aimed at someone who was (yawn) calling him a tim.

D'Art writes:

many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

There's plenty on the handwringing side who loff eave the finger massaging for a second to wag a finger at traditionalists, it's true. I have no problem telling people I think they're wrong. But it's way off the mark to say the trads are accepting of others...in a reversal of Tontospal's opinion earlier, it's quite clear that those who frequent messageboards are vitriolically (sp?) opposed to progressives, both verbally and boringly often with big scary threats to knock sense into people. Can it be that D'Art is right and that most trads are tolerant of other views, and that the more extreme views on here are the minority? I like irony.

As always AndyP you make your arguments conscisely and well, and I hope its not to your detriment when I agree with you.

I also note that because I hold the 'handwringing or 'modern, view' people always assume I am a new supporter when I have held a season ticket scince 1986.

I have also noted that the 'trads' on here, in my perception, dont seem to be the warm open type to others views, I may have got them wrong but perhaps it is just the minority of the trads who give me a hard time ! (For those not on my wavelength please note the irony of the statement before replying) Boltonloyal - I dont think you even need to reply - your statements about Celtic show you are at the extreme of this debate and you make White Van Bear look like a modern handwringer.

How dare you call any one else extreme when you use the racist word h** to your wife who comes from N.Ireland. Thats why most people treat you with the contempt you deserve BP9.

Get it right - I call her h**s - we only became uptight at the word h** when they started on about fenians - that old tit-for-tat we get involved in. I do feel sorry if folks take offence at the word h**. My wife is Protestant (goes to church ) is from Northern Ireland and had a season ticket for 22 years, all her family are there - and neither she nor her family take any offence at the word so no need for you to defend her.

If you go to the game today go up to the first people from ulster you come to and call them h**'s let us know what hospital your in so we can have a laugh.

[ulsterbear1698 0]

I grew up watching Rangers when there was little or no PC amongst football fans.

The Rangers support was predominately working class, male and protestant, although perhaps not orange or a church goer, they were certainly fiercely proud of our culture and traditions.

We were also united to the extent that it was all for one and one for all. You knew that if it went off at Easter Rd or Aberdeen that your fellow supporters would have your back and would not hesitate to help a bear or bears in need.

That support was moulded in the traditional 'No Surrender' mould and if noone liked us we certainly didn't care.

Fast forward to 2008 and that support is no more. Yes, a bastardised version exists but there is no way that anyone can claim it is united, has a No Surrender atittude or has anywhere near the same level of pride in the traditions and culture, without which Rangers could have ended up like Partick Thistle, Queens Park or, heaven forbid, Third Lanark.

Words fail me to describe our support's meek acceptance of:

the Rangers board and their 'grass a bear' lines;

the banning of songs that WE have all sung and were commonplace wherever we played or our fans got together;

the celtic mhedia bias;

the SPL/SFA treatment of Rangers through administrative and matchday officials;

the 'love-ins' with a celtc who despise us and have a dig at us at every opportunity, including their own AGM;

It shouldn't have come as a surprise but even I was stunned this morning to read Rangers fans backing the referees and officials and blaming the manager and players.

Don't get me wrong I am not delighted with our current manager and some of the squad but they are doing their best to win games and trophies only to be cheated by officials who are continually bending the rules to give celtc an advantage in the title race. It won them the title last season and it has given them a healthy lead despite losing the first old firm game of the season.

Incredibly there are now even Rangers fans who think we are paranoid and that Rangers should actually score 2 goals more than the opprosition to ensure that a referee/official doesn't deny us victory.

I could even accept the mistakes if:

a) the officials owned up to them in the light of TV evidence

b) the SPL/SFA actively punished officials for the mistakes they are making by demoting them or suspending them.

Rangers fans are being cheated through errors being allowed to happen and without any recourse.

says it all

[ulsterbear1698 0]

Big reply full of quotes coming up:

Tontospal:

we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. I'm a fairly sociable person, but I reckon I know about at most 50 people or so I'd be willing to discuss this matter with frankly and openly: possibly you know more of the 200,000 odd who went to Manchester and can form a better opinion than I can. I speak for myself and no-one else.

I like the way you lump those who disagree with you in with the media agenda against us. Very subtle, I don't think. If you've read my posts I assume you can see I'm not a fuckwit and can form opinions of my own without having to consult Gerry, Hugh or Graham. Disagreeing with you on this subject and following the 'mhedia' are totally different things and it's wrong of you to try to mix the 2, even it if suits your agenda.

I don't see it as pro-Protestant, in my time it's been expressed mainly through the medium of anti-popery (doesn't bother me...ridiculous sect and winds up timothy no end) and Irish stuff like Derry's Walls or The Sash. If every single poster on this board told me how close the bond is, I still wouldn't see why a Scottish club in Glasgow should be fixated with Irish stuff. It doesn't work for me, simple as that.

Then later:

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

Sorry to bust your bubble. I started going in 1985 and I haven't stopped yet...I still seem to be able to push the turnstile. Lucky I didn't injure me fingers with all that handwringing, eh? Or maybe you're a bit up yourself as the backbone of the club.

BP9 replied to my:

There's no need for that.

That was aimed at someone who was (yawn) calling him a tim.

D'Art writes:

many of the more "traditionalist" element of the support are willing to accept the views and beliefs of others.....its those more "modern" supporters who seem to be intolerant of the views of others.

There's plenty on the handwringing side who loff eave the finger massaging for a second to wag a finger at traditionalists, it's true. I have no problem telling people I think they're wrong. But it's way off the mark to say the trads are accepting of others...in a reversal of Tontospal's opinion earlier, it's quite clear that those who frequent messageboards are vitriolically (sp?) opposed to progressives, both verbally and boringly often with big scary threats to knock sense into people. Can it be that D'Art is right and that most trads are tolerant of other views, and that the more extreme views on here are the minority? I like irony.

As always AndyP you make your arguments conscisely and well, and I hope its not to your detriment when I agree with you.

I also note that because I hold the 'handwringing or 'modern, view' people always assume I am a new supporter when I have held a season ticket scince 1986.

I have also noted that the 'trads' on here, in my perception, dont seem to be the warm open type to others views, I may have got them wrong but perhaps it is just the minority of the trads who give me a hard time ! (For those not on my wavelength please note the irony of the statement before replying) Boltonloyal - I dont think you even need to reply - your statements about Celtic show you are at the extreme of this debate and you make White Van Bear look like a modern handwringer.

How dare you call any one else extreme when you use the racist word h** to your wife who comes from N.Ireland. Thats why most people treat you with the contempt you deserve BP9.

Get it right - I call her h**s - we only became uptight at the word h** when they started on about fenians - that old tit-for-tat we get involved in. I do feel sorry if folks take offence at the word h**. My wife is Protestant (goes to church ) is from Northern Ireland and had a season ticket for 22 years, all her family are there - and neither she nor her family take any offence at the word so no need for you to defend her.

would love you to call me it

[Tontospal 1,116]

I grew up watching Rangers when there was little or no PC amongst football fans.

The Rangers support was predominately working class, male and protestant, although perhaps not orange or a church goer, they were certainly fiercely proud of our culture and traditions.

We were also united to the extent that it was all for one and one for all. You knew that if it went off at Easter Rd or Aberdeen that your fellow supporters would have your back and would not hesitate to help a bear or bears in need.

That support was moulded in the traditional 'No Surrender' mould and if noone liked us we certainly didn't care.

Fast forward to 2008 and that support is no more. Yes, a bastardised version exists but there is no way that anyone can claim it is united, has a No Surrender atittude or has anywhere near the same level of pride in the traditions and culture, without which Rangers could have ended up like Partick Thistle, Queens Park or, heaven forbid, Third Lanark.

Words fail me to describe our support's meek acceptance of:

the Rangers board and their 'grass a bear' lines;

the banning of songs that WE have all sung and were commonplace wherever we played or our fans got together;

the celtic mhedia bias;

the SPL/SFA treatment of Rangers through administrative and matchday officials;

the 'love-ins' with a celtc who despise us and have a dig at us at every opportunity, including their own AGM;

It shouldn't have come as a surprise but even I was stunned this morning to read Rangers fans backing the referees and officials and blaming the manager and players.

Don't get me wrong I am not delighted with our current manager and some of the squad but they are doing their best to win games and trophies only to be cheated by officials who are continually bending the rules to give celtc an advantage in the title race. It won them the title last season and it has given them a healthy lead despite losing the first old firm game of the season.

Incredibly there are now even Rangers fans who think we are paranoid and that Rangers should actually score 2 goals more than the opprosition to ensure that a referee/official doesn't deny us victory.

I could even accept the mistakes if:

a) the officials owned up to them in the light of TV evidence

b) the SPL/SFA actively punished officials for the mistakes they are making by demoting them or suspending them.

Rangers fans are being cheated through errors being allowed to happen and without any recourse.

Unadulterated Paranoid Pish. Were you even there?

Please elaborate on what you interpret as paranoid pish.

And was I where?