Thermopylae 15,286 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Was just thinking during the Holland game that the wee man in his pomp would have won this game for the Argies ... what is scary is just how good he would have been if he had been a better professional Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 18,941 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Maradona tended to be man-marked by one opposition player, and struggled just like anybody would, when that player was good at it. See his performance against Italy in 1982, or even the World Cup final in '86 for evidence. After being shackled by Matthaus for the entire match he produced one through ball in the last five minutes to Burruchaga, who took his goal well, after the West German defence played a dreadful offside trap. Messi tends to be man-marked by one player and swarmed upon by anybody near-by for good measure. He has still created more chances than any other player in this tournament, and scored four goals. If Palacio or Maxi Rodriguez had been as good as Burruchaga, and if Holland had defended as badly as West Germany, Messi would have set up two goals against Holland in the dying minutes. And the entire narrative would have changed.Messi is the only player I've ever been aware of who is expected to not only play champagne football in league games against the likes of Getafe but also in games against the likes of a disciplined Holland in a World Cup semi-final that featured absolutely no creative football from either side. It's just laughable.The truth is, we have no idea for sure how Messi would have fared in earlier eras where he would have been afforded more space and time on the ball. But we can guess. He would probably have done pretty well. As it is, he has captained a shite team to a World Cup final, and is doing pretty well as it is. I don't think he was better than Maradona but the amount of garbage arguments I hear to try to explain that position makes me want to say he is just to wind people up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingObv 10,646 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 So we are using one game to judge who is better? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Was just thinking during the Holland game that the wee man in his pomp would have won this game for the Argies ... what is scary is just how good he would have been if he had been a better professionalI agree. Maradona played at a time when you could get kicked off the park with little protection.I think Maradona would be even better in today's football with more protection for skilful players.Jamie makes a decent point about marking but that's more than cancelled out by the ferocity of the challenges 20, 30 years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingObv 10,646 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I agree. Maradona played at a time when you could get kicked off the park with little protection.I think Maradona would be even better in today's football with more protection for skilful players.Jamie makes a decent point about marking but that's more than cancelled out by the ferocity of the challenges 20, 30 years ago.The ferocity of defenders diving in at any opportunity?Defending has changed completely, players are far more tactically aware and astute now. Messi would thrive if people were trying flying into him at any opportunity and not defending on the 18 yard line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the goal machine 7,802 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 So we are using one game to judge who is better?Yes. Not even one game from both guys in the same era, just one from Messi a couple of nights ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 18,941 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I agree. Maradona played at a time when you could get kicked off the park with little protection.I think Maradona would be even better in today's football with more protection for skilful players.Jamie makes a decent point about marking but that's more than cancelled out by the ferocity of the challenges 20, 30 years ago.Not really. Messi gets kicked plenty and just gets back up. Plus there's the fact that both Messi and Maradona are easily the match for hatchet men who don't actually have any defending ability. Even the briefest glance at a highlight reel shows what Maradona thrived on - almost every clip shows him hurdling the outstretched legs of some hapless idiot sliding in with no cover in front of him. Maradona didn't struggle against Gentile because Gentile kept kicking him, he struggled because he didn't get an inch of space, which is something Messi contends with in every match. Italy gambled on essentially taking one of their own players out of the game by giving him one job, because they knew Maradona was the real danger, and that a defence marshalled by Scirea could deal with Kempes if he was starved of service.In this tournament, teams have realised that they can afford to give even more attention to Messi than they do when he plays for his club because he's primarily playing as a playmaker, not a striker, and Argentina's other attacking options are woefully out of form. Every time he receives the ball into his feet, there's somebody on him, and opposition players in every space he might play the ball into. Nobody has to mark Higuain or Lavezzi or Aguero because they're not going to do anything unless Messi gives them the ball. Of course it's hard to play earth-shattering football in such conditions. No player would. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 18,941 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 In any case, I reckon Messi won the match when he strode up to take the first penalty, like a leader, and scored it, like a leader, while the Dutch players were saying to Van Gaal "No boss, not me, please!" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillete 1,338 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Behave Never saw maradonna win the european cupHe tried and failed at a top club in Barca. Couldn't handle itAnd players are fitter, more professional and there's hardly any shite compared to the teams kicking around yrs ago when maradonna was playing so I don't buy itMaradonna got away with it because of his talent but against fitter players he wouldn't be as affective as he wasnt exactly an athlete himself Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Educator 1,572 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No Messi is no Maradona, Messi doesn't need to stick drugs up his nose to be great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 18,941 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No Messi is no Maradona, Messi doesn't need to stick drugs up his nose to be great.Cocaine made Maradona great?Wonder what went wrong for Paul Merson. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegKuznetsov 10,816 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 BehaveNever saw maradonna win the european cupHe tried and failed at a top club in Barca.Couldn't handle itAnd players are fitter, more professional and there's hardly any shite compared to the teams kicking around yrs ago when maradonna was playing so I don't buy itMaradonna got away with it because of his talent but against fitter players he wouldn't be as affective as he wasnt exactly an athlete himselfDon't think I'd quite agree with that.After the 1982 World Cup, in June, Maradona was transferred to FC Barcelona in Spain for a then world record fee of £5m ($7.6m).[23] In 1983, under coach César Luis Menotti, Barcelona and Maradona won the Copa del Rey (Spain's annual national cup competition), beatingReal Madrid, and the Spanish Super Cup, beating Athletic Bilbao. However, Maradona had a difficult tenure in Barcelona.[27] First a bout ofhepatitis, then a broken ankle caused by an ill-timed tackle by Athletic's Andoni Goikoetxea threatened to jeopardize Maradona's career,[23]but after treatment and therapy it was possible for him to soon be back on the pitch.During his two injury-hit seasons at Barcelona, Maradona scored 38 goals in 58 games.[28] At Barcelona, Maradona got into frequent disputes with the team's directors, especially club president Josep LluÃs Núñez, culminating with a demand to be transferred out of Camp Nou in 1984. He was transferred to Napoli in Italy's Serie A for another world record fee, £6.9m ($10.48m).[29] Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasa_Papac_No1_Fan 605 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Messi is no Maradonna, he is his own player, that is the problem with new and old eras, people keep comparing and it is not fair on Messi who does not have the same type of players Maradonna had when he played in the world cup or even his club team. Yes Messi has one of the best dribblers in club history (Iniesta) and the best passer (Xavi) but Maradonna played with world cup heroes like Kempes and Passarealla who if we do compare (which we shouldn't have i have said before) Messi would get slaughtered back in the day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgoalie 637 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Messi has or never will come close to the best football player ever to play the game.Anybody that played in that era wax lyrical about Maradona.The other day watched a clip about Socrates the Brazilian playmaker stating he had never seen anything like him,not even in the circus.Pity he wasted it near the end,but in the years between 79-86 no one comes close to the way he played the game.Messi is a brilliant player but is certainly no Maradona. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgoalie 637 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Behave Never saw maradonna win the european cupHe tried and failed at a top club in Barca. Couldn't handle itAnd players are fitter, more professional and there's hardly any shite compared to the teams kicking around yrs ago when maradonna was playing so I don't buy itMaradonna got away with it because of his talent but against fitter players he wouldn't be as affective as he wasnt exactly an athlete himselfWhat a load of absolute rubbish..have you ever seen him play from 79 onwards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WadeWilson 4,670 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 BehaveNever saw maradonna win the european cupHe tried and failed at a top club in Barca.Couldn't handle itAnd players are fitter, more professional and there's hardly any shite compared to the teams kicking around yrs ago when maradonna was playing so I don't buy itMaradonna got away with it because of his talent but against fitter players he wouldn't be as affective as he wasnt exactly an athlete himselfThree strikes... Aaaaand...You're outta here...!Brilliant debate, by the way guys. Great posts. Makes a change reading some real intelligent debate with different viewpoints backed up with solid arguments. Great thread. El Diego will always have a special place in my memory because of my age and what I witnessed from him just as I was opening my eyes to the beautiful game. I also have to confess that, just like some figures in the world of music, he is an icon because of this notion of 'flawed genius'.Lionel Messi is a fantastic player and no doubt one of the best of all time. The way he plays the game in this era of theatrics is especially commendable... But he could never have the same iconic appeal as Maradona. That fact, however, is undoubtedly a compliment to Messi, the footballer.Maradona was just a much more flamboyant, outspoken, political and larger-than-life character. Going back to the musical analogy, I'm afraid it's Jimi Hendrix v Eric Clapton.That said, I love both football players... But I only have room for Hendrix as a guitar player. In football, however, there is room for them both. A fact that Argentinians are just coming round to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugsy 44 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm in the Maradona 'camp' Anybody that can do that amount of gear and brasses and more or less single handedly win major competitions for club and country takes a bit of beating IMHO! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieD 18,941 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Surely no players have ever been so unfairly dismissed and whitewashed from history as Maradona's team-mates Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 It's funny, Messi doesn't enjoy anything like the level of goodwill that Maradona enjoys in Argentina. It only seems to be Basra fanboys and the Euro-centric SKY TV generation who continually make the case for Messi being equal to or greater than Diego.I would even say that Tevez is far more popular in Argentina than Messi is, although that could change tomorrow for obvious reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingObv 10,646 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It's funny, Messi doesn't enjoy anything like the level of goodwill that Maradona enjoys in Argentina. It only seems to be Basra fanboys and the Euro-centric SKY TV generation who continually make the case for Messi being equal to or greater than Diego.I would even say that Tevez is far more popular in Argentina than Messi is, although that could change tomorrow for obvious reasons.Why would Argentinans know more than anyone else? Have both players played in Argentina their whole lives hidden from the rest of the world?And no I'd say it was the fact he has 4 world player of the year awards and his 73 goal seasons which make the case. You're almost implying that it's wrong for people to put Messi up against Maradona... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Why would Argentinans know more than anyone else?They wouldn't, I never claimed they would. It's probably a class thing as much as footballing ability as to why Maradona (and, indeed, Tevez) are more popular than Messi in Argentina anyway - Maradona and Tevez grew up in the slums.It just seemed an interesting point given they are both Argentinian. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingObv 10,646 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 They wouldn't, I never claimed they would. It's probably a class thing as much as footballing ability as to why Maradona (and, indeed, Tevez) are more popular than Messi in Argentina anyway - Maradona and Tevez grew up in the slums.It just seemed an interesting point given they are both Argentinian.Ah I took it as Argentina fans prefer him so he must be better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingWilBEARy 4,319 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Ah I took it as Argentina fans prefer him so he must be better.No, I was just saying it seems strange that Messi isn't as highly regarded in his home country as he is in Europe. I just phrased it in a snidey way because I'm outrageously biased towards Maradona as he's a Napoli legend/demigod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the goal machine 7,802 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Great articlThey wouldn't, I never claimed they would. It's probably a class thing as much as footballing ability as to why Maradona (and, indeed, Tevez) are more popular than Messi in Argentina anyway - Maradona and Tevez grew up in the slums.It just seemed an interesting point given they are both Argentinian.There's a great article about that:http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=lionel-messi Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillete 1,338 Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 What a load of absolute rubbish..have you ever seen him play from 79 onwards.You talk shite Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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