Lamb to the slaughter

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

In 1999 Donald Findlay was forced to resign from the Rangers Board…and also as Rector of St Andrews University.

His crime ?

Singing The Sash and The Billy Boys at a private function for Rangers supporters following a Scottish Cup victory over Celtic.

I am still at something of a loss to understand exactly what DF did wrong.

He sang 2 songs which went down well with the assembled audience. Therefore you could say he pitched his presentation at an appropriate level.

Except for one of course. He who filmed DF singing and subsequently sold the video to a tabloid for the princely sum of £ 6,500. Or if you chose to view him with the same disdain as me….30 pieces of silver.

The rest as they say is history. The media pursuit of DF was relentless….leaving the “disgraced QC†to even contemplate suicide.

Let us bare in mind that at the time of this incident….the Billy Boys was not a banned anthem….and subsequent attempts to have a successful prosecution with regard to a person singing the Sash resulted in Scottish courts rejecting the charge having examined the words…stating there was no case to answer.

The only crime which appears to have occurred is that DF chose to celebrate with his fellow Bears..whilst amongst one of this so called family of Bears was one motivated by making a quick buck.

Is there any one of us who has not sang exactly the same songs ? Particularly in what you view as trusted company ?

If SDM was present at the function…why did he not challenge DF at the time of his singing if he felt such action was worthy of tendering a resignation ?

It appears to me that the tabloid press have exercised their judgement as to what constitutes “sectarian behaviourâ€â€¦and sought to demonise an individual accordingly…to the point he contemplated suicide.

Quite simply we capitulated as an organisation by requesting DF resign from the board due to the “judge and jury†pressure of the tabloids. Since when did such unscrupulous publications dictate the moral code of this country ?

Our failure to defend one of our own set the benchmark for the exaggerated accusations which have been rife against our club and its support.

Comparing the response and follow up to the DF video in comparison to the Hartson/Pearson video only serves to underline the lack of balance and objectivity with regard to these 2 incidents. Dont get me wrong....two wrongs don’t make a right.

But my argument is that one of these incidents wasn’t even a wrong.

[Boab 73]

Mmmmm, pondering

[Hoff 7]

I do agree that what happened to DF was a witch hunt, These functions go on all the time with both sides and the majority of us have sung these songs before. We cannot expect rangers to stick up for us as fans, our employees. SDM hasn't got it in him, what bugs me is the "dignified silence" pish that we get told is the best way to deal with it all. Very demoralising to not hav the club back the fans when our name gets dragged through the mud by the gutter press at every oppertunity.

[Bazza 21]

As usual, D'Artagnan, a very good post with some very intresting points.

The worst bit about it though is the "betrayal" of him by an alleged fellow bear.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

As usual, D'Artagnan, a very good post with some very intresting points.

The worst bit about it though is the "betrayal" of him by an alleged fellow bear.

Hard to chose Bazza which is the most gutting...

As you have pointed out the betrayal by a so called fellow Bear

Or the witch hunt pointed out by Mac... by a less than objective tabloid press which drove a man to the point of suicide.

[bauba30 1]

In 1999 Donald Findlay was forced to resign from the Rangers Board…and also as Rector of St Andrews University.

His crime ?

Singing The Sash and The Billy Boys at a private function for Rangers supporters following a Scottish Cup victory over Celtic.

I am still at something of a loss to understand exactly what DF did wrong.

He sang 2 songs which went down well with the assembled audience. Therefore you could say he pitched his presentation at an appropriate level.

Except for one of course. He who filmed DF singing and subsequently sold the video to a tabloid for the princely sum of £ 6,500. Or if you chose to view him with the same disdain as me….30 pieces of silver.

The rest as they say is history. The media pursuit of DF was relentless….leaving the “disgraced QC†to even contemplate suicide.

Let us bare in mind that at the time of this incident….the Billy Boys was not a banned anthem….and subsequent attempts to have a successful prosecution with regard to a person singing the Sash resulted in Scottish courts rejecting the charge having examined the words…stating there was no case to answer.

The only crime which appears to have occurred is that DF chose to celebrate with his fellow Bears..whilst amongst one of this so called family of Bears was one motivated by making a quick buck.

Is there any one of us who has not sang exactly the same songs ? Particularly in what you view as trusted company ?

If SDM was present at the function…why did he not challenge DF at the time of his singing if he felt such action was worthy of tendering a resignation ?

It appears to me that the tabloid press have exercised their judgement as to what constitutes “sectarian behaviourâ€â€¦and sought to demonise an individual accordingly…to the point he contemplated suicide.

Quite simply we capitulated as an organisation by requesting DF resign from the board due to the “judge and jury†pressure of the tabloids. Since when did such unscrupulous publications dictate the moral code of this country ?

Our failure to defend one of our own set the benchmark for the exaggerated accusations which have been rife against our club and its support.

Comparing the response and follow up to the DF video in comparison to the Hartson/Pearson video only serves to underline the lack of balance and objectivity with regard to these 2 incidents. Dont get me wrong....two wrongs don’t make a right.

But my argument is that one of these incidents wasn’t even a wrong.

And the point is? It was eight years ago man - what relevance does it have now?

[bauba30 1]

Why was he hounded? because, as much as the dong wasn't banned, or was it illegal, it was certainly unseemly for someone representing Rangers at a function to sing about being "up to their knees etc"

Maybe the fan who shopped him was someone who like me, does not enjoy hearing this sort of stuff. Not all Rangers fans, even 8 years ago, are driven by sectarian hatred.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

And the point is? It was eight years ago man - what relevance does it have now?

Quite simply bauba...given your conduct on a previous thread...where you tried unsuccessfully to get fellow posters into trouble for what you alleged were "personal insults"....accusations I may add which admin on here chose to ignore...you will find that any responses by you to any of my posts will be ignored until you have the decency to apologise to Minstral and myself.

[Boab 73]

ooo, a Stand off!

[nvager 498]

Yes I agree it was disgusting that a bear exposed another bear in this way. it was a disgusting witch hunt and yes SDM should just have said it was "silly behaviour" but not worth resigning over and backed him up.

Again though it was 8 years ago and has lost a lot of its relevance now - unless a similar situation was to arise.

JMO.

[bauba30 1]

And the point is? It was eight years ago man - what relevance does it have now?

Quite simply bauba...given your conduct on a previous thread...where you tried unsuccessfully to get fellow posters into trouble for what you alleged were "personal insults"....accusations I may add which admin on here chose to ignore...you will find that any responses by you to any of my posts will be ignored until you have the decency to apologise to Minstral and myself.

Decency? LOL Pot Kettle Mrs.

No, I will let that thread stand on its own - several of us were having a good debate when upon two individuals chose to deviate from the topic and instead post with a tone which was unbecoming to this forum - and then when I asked for it to be toned down, you took offense. You said i made accusations? No, I merely asked that you tone it down with the insults.

Fine, you make your own choices in life. Myself, I will just continue to debate the topics. It is up to you whether you wish to respond or not. To be honest, I will not lose any sleep over whether you do or not. There are far more important issues in my life than that

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Yes I agree it was disgusting that a bear exposed another bear in this way. it was a disgusting witch hunt and yes SDM should just have said it was "silly behaviour" but not worth resigning over and backed him up.

Again though it was 8 years ago and has lost a lot of its relevance now - unless a similar situation was to arise.

JMO.

I respectfully disagree Nvager.

The relevance is that to some extent we are still subject to the "moral code" of the tabloid press. We need to stand up for what we believe in and not appease their erroneous opinion of what constitutes sectarian behaviour.

Well a similar situation did arise with the Hartson/Pearson video...what does that response tell us about objectivity and balance ?

And given the double standards exercised.....should we perhaps review how we respond as a club to their attacks ?

[bauba30 1]

Yes I agree it was disgusting that a bear exposed another bear in this way. it was a disgusting witch hunt and yes SDM should just have said it was "silly behaviour" but not worth resigning over and backed him up.

Again though it was 8 years ago and has lost a lot of its relevance now - unless a similar situation was to arise.

JMO.

I respectfully disagree Nvager.

The relevance is that to some extent we are still subject to the "moral code" of the tabloid press. We need to stand up for what we believe in and not appease their erroneous opinion of what constitutes sectarian behaviour.

Well a similar situation did arise with the Hartson/Pearson video...what does that response tell us about objectivity and balance ?

And given the double standards exercised.....should we perhaps review how we respond as a club to their attacks ?

Difference of course with that is that the whole room was singing that song - the issue was who shouldted out the unacceptable add-ons - we all saw the video and it was the shadiest video I've seen since Highlander 2. Nobody could honesty tell for sure that the Celtic 2 shouted those words.

With the DF case, it wasnt so much the sash that got him into bother it was the BB's, and the lyrics, "UP TO OUR KNEES IN FENION BLOOD" - exactly what part of that is acceptable? If I sang it at a Rangers club it is unfortunate - if a representative of the club sings it is not good at all.

Mr F is a learned man and should have known better

[robroy72 0]

Compare it directly with the media witch hunt for Hartson & Pearson....

Great post, D'Artagnan.

[bauba30 1]

Yes I agree it was disgusting that a bear exposed another bear in this way. it was a disgusting witch hunt and yes SDM should just have said it was "silly behaviour" but not worth resigning over and backed him up.

Again though it was 8 years ago and has lost a lot of its relevance now - unless a similar situation was to arise.

JMO.

I respectfully disagree Nvager.

The relevance is that to some extent we are still subject to the "moral code" of the tabloid press. We need to stand up for what we believe in and not appease their erroneous opinion of what constitutes sectarian behaviour.

Well a similar situation did arise with the Hartson/Pearson video...what does that response tell us about objectivity and balance ?

And given the double standards exercised.....should we perhaps review how we respond as a club to their attacks ?

"We need to stand up for what we believe in" Fair enough, but what of your beliefs on this are in the minority amongst Rangers fans? Would you be prepared to go with the majority decision on this? Or woe betide, actually support your clubs decisions?

[rankin 0]

Much as I love my Club, I was disgusted when the rangers heirarchy failed to back Doi

nald Finlay. They should have drawn a line there and then. Instead, by being so gutless, they invited more attacks from people who wish the Club no good. This is why the DF affair is still relevant, even after 8 years.

Enough is enough and any future attack on the club or its supporters must be defended 100%.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Hey listen ....lets have some real bigotted comments........just so we know the difference.

"O’Brien warns of ‘moral collapse’

Gillian Bowditch and Kathleen Nutt

DEVOLUTION is causing the moral disintegration of Scotland, with the passing of gay rights legislation a potential “slippery slope†to the legalisation of paedophilia and bestiality, according to the leader of the country’s Roman Catholics.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien has launched his most outspoken attack yet on Jack McConnell’s government, accusing it of presiding over the moral “destruction of societyâ€.

He blames ministers, equipped with the freedom devolution has given them, to pass laws for which they have no mandate. He claims measures such as gay adoption and same-sex civil partnerships are opposed by the majority of Scots.

“I would certainly say we are working towards the destruction of any sort of moral standards,†he said. “It doesn’t seem to be going at quite the same speed in other places.

“We don’t want this in our country. We’ve gone far enough and we can’t go any further with the destruction of society. The moral tone of our country has gone downhill.â€

O’Brien said he raised the issue of gay legislation with a group of MSPs at Holyrood recently, adding: “One person contradicted me and said, ‘No. That’s it now, we can’t go any worse’. I said, ‘What about paedophiles? There’s a paedophile party on the Continent. What if that is what everybody likes?’

“What if a man likes little girls? Can he adopt a little girl then and just have a little girl at home? Where are we going with this?’ I even mentioned bestiality. This is of intense worry to me. We’re just going down a slippery slope.â€

The cardinal’s remarks reflect a growing chasm between the Catholic Church and the Labour party, just weeks after he gave his backing to independence.

Tim Hopkins, a policy worker at the Equality Network, said: “Comparing homosexuality with paedophilia and bestiality is just an absurd, disgusting and inhuman thing to say about his fellow citizens and he should be thoroughly ashamed himself.â€

Peter Tatchell, spokesman for Outrage!, the gay human rights group, said: “The cardinal is a very sad, sick man. His scaremongering and demonisation, comparing gay couples to paedophiles and animal abusers, is deeply immoral.

“It is not what we expect from someone who claims to be motivated by the gospel of Jesus Christ of love and compassion.

“Since England and Wales allowed same-sex couples to jointly adopt and foster since 2003, there have been no complaints, no abuse and no problems.

“Lesbian and gay couples have provided loving and caring homes for children in desperate need. The cardinal should think about children first and forget his own miserable prejudices.â€

O’Brien has been a persistent critic of the Holyrood bill proposing to allow same-sex couples to adopt jointly. The bill is due to have its final reading in parliament on Thursday, and is set to come into force next spring. A number of amendments are due to be lodged against the proposal allowing same-sex adoption, but with Labour and Liberal Democrat party whips expected to instruct their MSPs to support the bill, it is unlikely to meet sufficient opposition.

O’Brien’s predecessor, Cardinal Thomas Winning, described gay sex as “perverted†and was instrumental in the campaign to block the repeal of section 28, which banned the promotion of homosexuality in schools.

A spokesman for Jack McConnell, the first minister, said: “The cardinal is entitled to his views. He has made them known to MSPs and in return MSPs have made theirs known to the cardinal in a number of meetings.â€

But alas...suprisingly I cant offer you any witchhunt on this one.

But dont believe me....go and do a google search...

Type in Cardinal O'Brien and then do the same search on Donald Findlay...

Tell me which set of results features the word bigot more....

[bauba30 1]

Hey listen ....lets have some real bigotted comments........just so we know the difference.

"O’Brien warns of ‘moral collapse’

Gillian Bowditch and Kathleen Nutt

DEVOLUTION is causing the moral disintegration of Scotland, with the passing of gay rights legislation a potential “slippery slope†to the legalisation of paedophilia and bestiality, according to the leader of the country’s Roman Catholics.

Cardinal Keith O’Brien has launched his most outspoken attack yet on Jack McConnell’s government, accusing it of presiding over the moral “destruction of societyâ€.

He blames ministers, equipped with the freedom devolution has given them, to pass laws for which they have no mandate. He claims measures such as gay adoption and same-sex civil partnerships are opposed by the majority of Scots.

“I would certainly say we are working towards the destruction of any sort of moral standards,†he said. “It doesn’t seem to be going at quite the same speed in other places.

“We don’t want this in our country. We’ve gone far enough and we can’t go any further with the destruction of society. The moral tone of our country has gone downhill.â€

O’Brien said he raised the issue of gay legislation with a group of MSPs at Holyrood recently, adding: “One person contradicted me and said, ‘No. That’s it now, we can’t go any worse’. I said, ‘What about paedophiles? There’s a paedophile party on the Continent. What if that is what everybody likes?’

“What if a man likes little girls? Can he adopt a little girl then and just have a little girl at home? Where are we going with this?’ I even mentioned bestiality. This is of intense worry to me. We’re just going down a slippery slope.â€

The cardinal’s remarks reflect a growing chasm between the Catholic Church and the Labour party, just weeks after he gave his backing to independence.

Tim Hopkins, a policy worker at the Equality Network, said: “Comparing homosexuality with paedophilia and bestiality is just an absurd, disgusting and inhuman thing to say about his fellow citizens and he should be thoroughly ashamed himself.â€

Peter Tatchell, spokesman for Outrage!, the gay human rights group, said: “The cardinal is a very sad, sick man. His scaremongering and demonisation, comparing gay couples to paedophiles and animal abusers, is deeply immoral.

“It is not what we expect from someone who claims to be motivated by the gospel of Jesus Christ of love and compassion.

“Since England and Wales allowed same-sex couples to jointly adopt and foster since 2003, there have been no complaints, no abuse and no problems.

“Lesbian and gay couples have provided loving and caring homes for children in desperate need. The cardinal should think about children first and forget his own miserable prejudices.â€

O’Brien has been a persistent critic of the Holyrood bill proposing to allow same-sex couples to adopt jointly. The bill is due to have its final reading in parliament on Thursday, and is set to come into force next spring. A number of amendments are due to be lodged against the proposal allowing same-sex adoption, but with Labour and Liberal Democrat party whips expected to instruct their MSPs to support the bill, it is unlikely to meet sufficient opposition.

O’Brien’s predecessor, Cardinal Thomas Winning, described gay sex as “perverted†and was instrumental in the campaign to block the repeal of section 28, which banned the promotion of homosexuality in schools.

A spokesman for Jack McConnell, the first minister, said: “The cardinal is entitled to his views. He has made them known to MSPs and in return MSPs have made theirs known to the cardinal in a number of meetings.â€

But alas...suprisingly I cant offer you any witchhunt on this one.

But dont believe me....go and do a google search...

Type in Cardinal O'Brien and then do the same search on Donald Findlay...

Tell me which set of results features the word bigot more....

Well it certainly verges on bigotry, I would say he is more of a homophobe though - either way, not values that should be embraced by modern society

Having said that, it has absolutely no relevance to the case of Donald Finlay - none whatsoever. Doesn't even involve football.

Donald was foolish, he was caught, he took the consequences. We are all responsible for our actions in this world. Representing Rangers, he should have known better.

[blueger9 0]

Trust no one... watch yer back at all times.....

[bauba30 1]

Yeah, the whole worlds a conspiracy, everyone's against us. lol

If I thought it was that bad, I'd never go outside

[Wreckedroy 33]

Yeah, the whole worlds a conspiracy, everyone's against us. lol

If I thought it was that bad, I'd never go outside

My thoughts exactly.

When are we going to see the end of these paranoid threads? :zzz:

[DadoPrso9 7]

Its disappointing the amount of Rangers fans now who cant see the abuse and damage our club is suffering and just label everyone who speaks out against them as "paranoid"

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Yeah, the whole worlds a conspiracy, everyone's against us. lol

If I thought it was that bad, I'd never go outside

My thoughts exactly.

When are we going to see the end of these paranoid threads? :zzz:

Paranoid Roy ?

Tell me...what part of the original post is merely subjective or speculative and which part is fact ?

Or are we playing RNA... Roy No Answers....

A wee dig and accusation without either the ability or substance to back it up ?

You should change your profile pic I have a suitable one here for you......

[justiston 91]

Well, he did sing a sectarian song about being up to his knees in Catholics blood, not hard to see why he was sacked, although wasn't there a courtcase that found the sash NON sectarian, so he got away with that? iunno...

[Albahighlander 0]

Why was he hounded? because, as much as the dong wasn't banned, or was it illegal, it was certainly unseemly for someone representing Rangers at a function to sing about being "up to their knees etc"

Maybe the fan who shopped him was someone who like me, does not enjoy hearing this sort of stuff. Not all Rangers fans, even 8 years ago, are driven by sectarian hatred.

What is interesting is that Bauba chooses to align himself with someone who sold a video without regard for anything other than cash.

If he had gone to Sir David and shown the tape to him and said look I am upset by this, what are you going to do about it, he would have a case.

Personally, I think Donald was ill advised to do the Billy Boys. The sash I have absolutely no problem with whatsoever.

The hypocritical attitude of the media however is a different story. They have run scared of Celtic even thouigh the evidence against Hartson and Pearson was indisputable. How Bauba can talk about the evidence being in any way in doubt is a mystery to me. Pearson was as guilty as anyone I have ever seen.