Eternal Frustration

[lancedeangers1 287]

This topic has been initiated by sheer frustration. Every time I have a glance at Teletext, Skysports news, a newspaper and Rangersmedia its constant stories of doom and gloom at Rangers and its driving me nuts.

I know we have all discussed and debated these issues for months now but what the hell is really going on at this club because for all the discussion and time that has elapsed we are no nearer an answer never mind a solution.

Every effing day there are stories, rumours, conspiracies or whatever which contradict one another. We have the circus surrounding the will he won't he with Walter, the situation with so many players dragging on, the takeover episode hanging over us and the most bewildering of all, the dreaded finances of the club.

The financial uncertainty is the issue I'm mystified with most and when its finally and honestly clarified it will resolve the other outstanding issues.

* Exactly how much is our current debt?

* Did we not post recent profits, and if so exactly how much if any was paid off our debt?

* Hypothetically if we paid the estimated 30m debt back today to Lloyds would we be sorted ?

* If we were to pay back the above mentioned debt, would Lloyds no longer be in control?

* What is the current debt repayment deal in place - 1 million per year ?

These are just some basic queries all which have been speculated upon and reported upon in the media yet we are none the wiser. One thing is obvious and that is there is deceit and constructed confusion at work here, who is responsible for it ( The Media, SDM, WS, The club, Lloyds, prospective buyers ??? ) perhaps all of them ?

One person that needs to step into the breach and give us some clear and concise clarification is Alistair Johnston. I for one have chosen to withhold judgement on him until he delivers the sort of leadership you'd expect at an institution like ours and to date he's done nothing to clear the muddy waters we are in.

We hear now that WS will decide his future in the next 48hrs on the back of the latest meetings with Lloyds ? Says who ? The media are manufacturing most of this uncertainty and hysteria surrounding Rangers and have been prostituting us for their own entertainment and gain.

I like so many others am tired of it all now and just want to know WTF is going on once and for all. I don't even care any more who stays or who goes, how much or how little the debt is or if we are being taken over or not, just let us have the truth.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

* Exactly how much is our current debt?- no one knows exactly , educated guesses put it in the high 20's*

Did we not post recent profits, and if so exactly how much if any was paid off our debt?- thirteen million profit, nine million of that was used to pay off money owed for players we have already signed

*

Hypothetically if we paid the estimated 30m debt back today to Lloyds would we be sorted ? Yes, but we need to be better structured so we don't need CL group stages to turn a profit*

If we were to pay back the above mentioned debt, would Lloyds no longer be in control? Depends, they provide our funding right now and our currebnt owner is no longer willing to provide us with external funding so a new source (i.e. an new owner) would be required*

What is the current debt repayment deal in place - 1 million per year ? Yes

Should be accurate, happy to be corrected if it's not

[RFC55 109,770]

We may need answers nd im going to go slightly off topic as the OP isnt neccesarily about the takeover as such, but people who are wanting a quick takeover and the like, do we want to end up like porstmouth? 6 different owners in the space of 8 months? I know people are wanting answers and the like but this is one subject i do trust SDM on

[caseyjones 3,009]

Without a rich benefactor, we need to be run within our means. That is now happening, with the pain that comes with it, and there are people with a vested interest who don't like it.

[Frankie 505]

The answers GCL kindly provided are correct.

The problem comes with the interpretation with what the chairman has said in recent months - since the AGM in December.

Essentially at the AGM he inferred the club had agreed to a new repayment structure of the existing debt until December of this year. In other words the existing long term loan due to be paid over the next 20 years at £1million per year may be subject to change depending on circumstances.

What people are concerned about is just how they may address that. For example, are they happy to maintain a 20 year payment period if we re-structure the rest of the business to ensure viability with CL participation? Or are they so keen to remove themselves from Rangers, they'll insist upon bulk payments to reduce this time-scale - i.e. absorbing all CL income and/or selling key assets.

As it stands, apart from the high heid yins, no-one knows their intentions so basing our thoughts on anything other than official information is just unhelpful speculation.

[real boydie9 17,868]

We may need answers nd im going to go slightly off topic as the OP isnt neccesarily about the takeover as such, but people who are wanting a quick takeover and the like, do we want to end up like porstmouth? 6 different owners in the space of 8 months? I know people are wanting answers and the like but this is one subject i do trust SDM on

I agree with you 100%.

[Frankie 505]

Here's what I don't get. We were £30m in debt last August, but since then we've made the Champions League group stages twice and sold off quite a few players. Yet the figure of £30m worth of debt is still being quoted. How?

The debt at June 30th 2009 was just under £32 million.

Since then we've brought in large sums of money due to the sale of a few players (Adam, Ferguson and Mendes) and the CL income from season 09/10. As such, the debt is predicted to have been somewhere around £27million in January of this year. The reason only £4-5million has been knocked off the overall debt is because, as part of the restructuring the bank insisted upon, we had to pay £9million of outstanding transfer fee money.

For example, we paid £3.5million for Lafferty but we wouldn't have given all the money up front - instead spreading the cost over a few years. Same goes for Edu, Davis, Bougherra, Miller etc.

That is quite a common strategy for most clubs (we're just receiving the last of the money for Hutton now) so it will be interesting how we expect to buy new players going forward - as well as how we sell players. This is one question I'd like to see asked of the club asap.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

The market is picking up, SDM and MIH are no longer in serious trouble, there are very few bidders with the money to take over and we are now running in Profit and with reduced overheads and an agreement with the Bank.

So, I am afraid, patience is the one virtue we are all going to need to learn. SDM does NOT need a fire sale, we have no one as yet that can take us forward, we have a sustainable biusiness and business plan so the 'status quo' could last for a good while yet!

[Frankie 505]

The market is picking up, SDM and MIH are no longer in serious trouble, there are very few bidders with the money to take over and we are now running in Profit and with reduced overheads and an agreement with the Bank.

So, I am afraid, patience is the one virtue we are all going to need to learn. SDM does NOT need a fire sale, we have no one as yet that can take us forward, we have a sustainable biusiness and business plan so the 'status quo' could last for a good while yet!

According to the chairman, both Rangers and Lloyds are eager to separate themselves of any existing arrangements asap.

Under the terms agreed last winter, our existing plan may be acceptable as it stands. However, the chairman also said this plan is subject to change; either in December or possibly immediately. Given the circumstances of our manager and 6 players this summer; and further contractual issues to address next summer, it is difficult to guess our ambitions if our finances are restricted.

None of us know Lloyds' intentions in this regard so we have no idea of how sustainable they see our business.

[lancedeangers1 287]

Good responses lads and it highlights the level of confusion running amongst us. It seems on one hand people like Mr Johnston etc have fed us facts (so called) and then in the next breath said they were subject to change?

I understand what he means by such a statement but really from a supporters point of view that's like saying 'Iv'e got a UFO in my back garden' and when you ask him to show you he says its invisible ?

I have concerns/queries about the boards intentions.

* If they had the means (money) would they pay the debt off entirely and immediately ?

* If agreements were struck with the bank regarding repayment plans then why would it be subject to change?

* How much conflict of interests or loyalty to SDM runs through that boardroom.

* How much were the repayments before SDM decided to sell ?

Mr Johnston said he was facilitating the sale of the club, but for who's benefit? The clubs, the banks or for SDM ?

This sum of 30 million or so is not enormous or unique in football and I am simply astounded that a club of our size, reputation, success and potential can be brought to its knees ? It doesn't make sense.

If we were to sell players this summer (Bougherra, M'Gregor, Wilson ) for the combined figure of 12 million for example, would that money be paid off the debt ? If so would the bank still be as ruthless with their demands seeing that the deficit would be roughly halved ?

Speaking personally I feel Mr Johnston and the Rangers board have let us down in regards to the handling of this PR disaster.

[cooper1989 0]

Well, we do need answers.. but 'we' don't own the club -- and perhaps the Club are not in a position (maybe legally) to discuss anything financial at the moment.

Patience. The Rangers will be here long after all of us are gone.

[lancedeangers1 287]

Good responses lads and it highlights the level of confusion running amongst us. It seems on one hand people like Mr Johnston etc have fed us facts (so called) and then in the next breath said they were subject to change?

I understand what he means by such a statement but really from a supporters point of view that's like saying 'Iv'e got a UFO in my back garden' and when you ask him to show you he says its invisible ?

I have concerns/queries about the boards intentions.

* If they had the means (money) would they pay the debt off entirely and immediately ?

* If agreements were struck with the bank regarding repayment plans then why would it be subject to change?

* How much conflict of interests or loyalty to SDM runs through that boardroom.

* How much were the repayments before SDM decided to sell ?

Mr Johnston said he was facilitating the sale of the club, but for who's benefit? The clubs, the banks or for SDM ?

This sum of 30 million or so is not enormous or unique in football and I am simply astounded that a club of our size, reputation, success and potential can be brought to its knees ? It doesn't make sense.

If we were to sell players this summer (Bougherra, M'Gregor, Wilson ) for the combined figure of 12 million for example, would that money be paid off the debt ? If so would the bank still be as ruthless with their demands seeing that the deficit would be roughly halved ?

Speaking personally I feel Mr Johnston and the Rangers board have let us down in regards to the handling of this PR disaster.

See Derren Brown the other day by any chance?

But yeah I agree with what you're saying. I think there must be a bit of misinformation somewhere relating to how much debt we've run up, how we're paying it off, and what exactly we are doing with our current revenue.

LOL I did see Derren Brown actually you're right, although the analogy was already well known, but well spotted hawkeye...

[nvager 498]

Well answers will be forthcoming soon - the next 2 weeks - and then we will know. The big question is the takeover bid. Is it happening or not? Seems that now we have qualified for the CL and that all the unknowns are now known, that this bid should be either made or withdrawn asap.

Fed up with this hanging about and nothing happening either way. Surely it is make up your mind time for Ellis and SDM?

Notwithstanding all of the above I am optimistic that in the end we will receive a bunch of good news regarding the takeover and money for next season.

Lets be patient - we have no choice anyway.

[BlueSuedeSambas 54,262]

Without a rich benefactor, we need to be run within our means. That is now happening, with the pain that comes with it, and there are people with a vested interest who don't like it.

This

The people who go on about players not being "Rangers class" and talk about this being "the worst Rangers team ever" might get a real eye opener over the next couple of seasons.

Should no new owner be forthcoming, I think we will see the wheat seperated from the chaff in terms of our supporters and their level of support.

[nvager 498]

Without a rich benefactor, we need to be run within our means. That is now happening, with the pain that comes with it, and there are people with a vested interest who don't like it.

This

The people who go on about players not being "Rangers class" and talk about this being "the worst Rangers team ever" might get a real eye opener over the next couple of seasons.

Should no new owner be forthcoming, I think we will see the wheat seperated from the chaff in terms of our supporters and their level of support.

I would accept a season or two with a small squad and youngsters if I knew the debt would be totally cleared and we would again be in charge of our own destiny.

I am more optimistic and think that we will get some better news in the next 2-3 weeks.

Its anyone's guess just now what will happen.

[KingKirk 25,780]

We are all getting fed up with this But as 1 poster said I do trust SDM on this 1, Everything will be sorted soon enough I feel. Today was the last metting with the banks according to the press, does that mean their should be movement on this by monday prob yes well lets hope so.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Without a rich benefactor, we need to be run within our means. That is now happening, with the pain that comes with it, and there are people with a vested interest who don't like it.

This

The people who go on about players not being "Rangers class" and talk about this being "the worst Rangers team ever" might get a real eye opener over the next couple of seasons.

Should no new owner be forthcoming, I think we will see the wheat seperated from the chaff in terms of our supporters and their level of support.

The people who say things like “this is the worst rangers team ever” are either not Rangers fans or fucking idiots…..

Either way who gives a feck what they think….

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,788]

without the debt we have, we wouldnt have managed 2iar, and likely the beggars would be sitting on 5 right now, strachan still in charge, and probably on their way to 9,

we wouldnt be anywhere NEAR the champions league group stages, and have even less of a profile for any potential investors

the funny thing about our problems is that its been mostly the beggar press thats fanning the flames,

no one connected to the club has stated that we will have a "fire sale", etc

smith said that every player is available for transfer, obviously thats true, but unless its a proper bid, we havent cheaply sold anyone yet

i cant be arsed searching for it, but im sure a few on here were spouting rumours of administration way back after smith first "slip" to the press about the banks running the club

without a major investment, even the old firm will have to downsize in scotland, the tims have posted an increase in debt for the 6months to xmas, and likely that will rise again, and with no CL football, no cunt decent to sell, and a squad needing rebuilding, they will either have to

go further into debt

or

start next season with the same shite that flopped last season

yes we havent bought a player in 18months, but we still have the best squad in scottish football by a country mile

[caseyjones 3,009]

Nobody can say where we would be without the debt. Either way, it is not how the club should be run.

There have been many outside of the press running their mouths off, putting out misleading information in order to cause alarm and strengthen their own hand, Smith and the Dave King group being the worst offenders. It's got to the stage where I view every utterance with scepticism.

[lancedeangers1 287]

As another poster said I also could accept a couple of seasons of a downsized squad if we knew that it meant the debt would be cleared but as it stands we haven't a clue about the options or variables going forward.

[TheMenace72 133]

Good thread troops, made a lot of things clearer.

[bluedogg 0]

For those saying they trust sir Dave on this, did you trust him when we were 80 million in debt and he said we wouldn't get in that state again............... a few year down the line and we're in the shit again.