The Alternative Histories of the Old Firm

[Frankie 505]

Given the contributors and content wording, I think it is pretty obvious what outlook this programme will have so it will be interesting to see if our understandable pre-conceptions are met by the imbalanced nature of the production.

Listen - with caution and with the complaint button ready.

BBC = Rangers Bad and Celtic Good

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00t8dwy

The native Highlanders, the Englishmen, and the lowlanders played football on Saturday afternoons and talked about it on Saturday evenings, but the Glaswegians, men apart in this as in most things, played, slept, ate, drank and lived it seven days a week.' (George MacDonald Fraser)

From friendly rivals to bitter adversaries, this series will discover the history of two of football's biggest teams and challenge some of the myths associated with both clubs. Along the way a fascinating social history will be revealed, and how Rangers and Celtic have come to dominate - and divide - a city.

- Programme 1

And If You Know Your History

Historian Tom Devine looks at the origins of the clubs and how the social and cultural life of Glasgow grew to create two of the biggest football clubs, and one of the greatest football rivalries, in the world.

- Programme 2 'Joy and Pain' presented by Graham Spiers.

- Programme 3 'Women and The Old Firm' presented by Ruth Wishart.

- Programme 4 'The Business of Celtic and Rangers' presented by Lesley Campbell.

[covenanter 158]

Tom Devine, BBC Scotland's favourite revisionist and Graham Spiers, Radio Snyde's(and formerly of ra Herald) notorious cock-up(oh matron)merchant.

We should remember Spiers as the hack that got Bitter Martin the sack.

[MisterC 12,455]

Tom Devine, BBC Scotland's favourite revisionist and Graham Spiers, Radio Snyde's(and formerly of ra Herald) notorious cock-up(oh matron)merchant.

We should remember Spiers as the hack that got Bitter Martin the sack.

Peter Maguire got sacked?

[Frankie 505]

Tom Devine, BBC Scotland's favourite revisionist and Graham Spiers, Radio Snyde's(and formerly of ra Herald) notorious cock-up(oh matron)merchant.

We should remember Spiers as the hack that got Bitter Martin the sack.

Peter Maguire got sacked?

Yes.

Officially he 'left' to do more commentating.

Unofficially, he was sacked because of this:

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/broadcast-bulletins/obb162/

Breach of Rule 6.2

In Breach

Superscoreboard

Clyde 1, 6 May 2010, 18:00

Introduction

Clyde 1 is a local commercial radio station broadcasting to Glasgow and parts of central Scotland, and Superscoreboard is a football programme broadcast on the station. Ofcom received four complaints that, on the day the vote in the General Election took place (6 May 2010) while the polls were open, one of the presenters of the programme, Peter Martin, actively endorsed support for the Labour party.

On reviewing the programme, Ofcom noted the following exchange between Peter Martin (PM), and his co-presenter, Graeme Spiers (GS):

GS: Peter, listen, never mind this, have you cast your vote?

PM: Well, Im going toI m going toIm going to now cast a vote within the next hour.

GS: Not one hour ago, I put a large cross beside the Kirkcaldy Ministers son (-1-).

PM: Yeah.

GS: Who youre going to vote for?

PM: Is itis it somethingLabour! Is it something you keep quiet, or is it something?

GS: Well, people think you do keep quiet about it, people get tetchy about it. Who do you thinkwho do you think Walter Smith (-2-) will vote for? Who do you think Lennon (-3-) will vote for?

PM: Let me tell you: Labour, both of them. Not a shadow of doubt. Walter Smith, his background. Its an absolute stonewall certainty. We dont even have to take calls.

Ofcom asked Bauer Radio (Bauer), who provides compliance for Clyde 1, for its comments under Rule 6.4 of the Code, which states:

Discussionof election and referendum issues must finish when the poll opens. (This refers to the opening of actual polling stations. This rule does not apply to any poll conducted entirely by post.).

Response

Bauer said that it had had in place in all its radio stations, including Clyde 1, thorough procedures concerning election coverage, and that initial guidelines were issued well ahead of the election, as well as repeated reminders in the run up to and on polling day itself.

Bauer said that although the presenters in the present case had been briefed about the guidelines covering election coverage, the guidelines were not at the forefront of their minds when they meandered into a conversation speculating around how certain individuals may have voted. Bauer added that the comments were not an attempt to canvass for any political party, but rather were a lighthearted view to make the sports show more topical. Bauer said that both presenters were aware of the seriousness of the matter and deeply regret entering into a conversation about the election which they recognise showed a considerable lack of judgement and awareness on their part.

In conclusion, Bauer said We accept this was a breach of code 6.4. In addition, Bauer said that it recognised that this was a serious matter and that the presenters concerned had been reprimanded and both taken off-air for a period of time.

Decision

Ofcom recognises the importance to the right to freedom of expression. This encompasses the broadcasters right to transmit and the audiences right to receive creative material, information and ideas without interference but subject to restrictions prescribed by law and necessary in a democratic society. This right is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights. However, Rule 6.4 of the Code requires that discussion of election issues must finish when the poll opens (at 07:00). This programme however was broadcast after the polls had opened and prior to the polls closing at 22:00.

In reaching its decision, Ofcom notes the broadcasters statement that the exchange between the presenters was intended to be lighthearted. However, we also note Bauers acceptance that there was a breach of the Code on this occasion. In this case, two radio presenters, whilst the polls were still open, discussed: firstly how they had voted, or intended to vote in the General Election taking place that day; and second, how other well-known personalities would be casting their votes.

Given the above, we considered this was a clear breach of Rule 6.4.

Breach of Rule 6.4

Footnotes:

1.- This was a reference to Gordon Brown, who was standing for election as the Labour party candidate in the constituency of Kirkcaldy.

2.- Manager of Glasgow Rangers Football Club.

3.- Acting manager of Celtic Football Club.

[opportunityknox 1]

I dread to think what these programmes will consist of.

[blueben_d 40]

I have a feeling this will perpetuate rather than challenge certain myths.

[AMMS 27]

Here's an idea, why don't we listen to it first then make our minds up?

I'd point out that any programme trying to condense the 'histories' of both Rangers and Celtic into 30 minutes is going to require a fair bit of editing and is bound to leave some pretty important aspects out.

[IfYeCannae 48]

Here's an idea, why don't we listen to it first then make our minds up?

I'd point out that any programme trying to condense the 'histories' of both Rangers and Celtic into 30 minutes is going to require a fair bit of editing and is bound to leave some pretty important aspects out.

Here's an idea.

If your going to do programmes on Rangers and celtc why not get people that aren't obviously bheasts in wolves clothing.

Tom Devine is nothing more than scum and hates Rangers and all things Protestant with every fibre in his drink driving body.

Graham Spiers, well for fuck sake it's him, his diatribes against Rangers fans are well known.

[dundeebear3 0]

Programme 3 'Women and The Old Firm' presented by Ruth Wishart.

I'll give that episode a miss

[AMMS 27]

Here's an idea, why don't we listen to it first then make our minds up?

I'd point out that any programme trying to condense the 'histories' of both Rangers and Celtic into 30 minutes is going to require a fair bit of editing and is bound to leave some pretty important aspects out.

Here's an idea.

If your going to do programmes on Rangers and celtc why not get people that aren't obviously bheasts in wolves clothing.

Tom Devine is nothing more than scum and hates Rangers and all things Protestant with every fibre in his drink driving body.

Graham Spiers, well for fuck sake it's him, his diatribes against Rangers fans are well known.

As I understand it Devine and Spiers are presenters, did they write it too?

All I'm saying is wait until it has aired before we write it off. It might be terrible, it might be good or it might be somewhere in between but we should at least listen to it first.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

[kplfishtank 4,669]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

to make it easier for you if theres a 20 pager on it drop me a pm and i will ban you from that thread

[caseyjones 3,009]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

How you were not banned along with Edin-bear-ugh is a mystery to me.

[outlaw69uk 123]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

to make it easier for you if theres a 20 pager on it drop me a pm and i will ban you from that thread

hahahahaha

[outlaw69uk 123]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

to make it easier for you if theres a 20 pager on it drop me a pm and i will ban you from that thread

hahahahaha

[outlaw69uk 123]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

Oh dear! haha, even you must realise that sometimes, 2 + 2 actually IS 4

[covenanter 158]

Here's an idea, why don't we listen to it first then make our minds up?

I'd point out that any programme trying to condense the 'histories' of both Rangers and Celtic into 30 minutes is going to require a fair bit of editing and is bound to leave some pretty important aspects out.

I will listen and I hope sincerely that the content is truly objective.

As stated, Devine is a revisionist, two years past he compared the Covenanters with the Taliban.

Spiers is an apologist. In MON's first season he took ra Sellik to East End Park and in a nil-nil draw, ra GFITW routinely and continuously sectarianly abused Dunfermline's recent signing, Ian Ferguson. The vast majority of both broadcast and print media condemned their behaviour. MON stated, "Ian Ferguson is old and big enough to handle comments from the sidelines". Spiers took MON's lead and provided mitigation by starting his Herald match report with, "Ian Ferguson has all the charm of a child molestor". What was Spiers motivation for such an odious comment? I thought Ferguson was the victim in this case.

Similar to Frankie, I hold little hope for objectivity when BBC Scotland hands the lead for at least two of the programmes to these two, trailing a mountain of baggage.

[bjorkland 13]

I actually think this has got potential to be an interesting series of programmes

[alfajerk 23]

British

Broadcasting

Catholics

says it all !

[stuartmccallsfall 4]

Everywhere Spiers goes he leaves a wake of destruction and bullshit behind him. Why oh why has he still got a job in the press in Scotland?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I like the way Frankie assumes they will be biased BEFORE listening - and we complain about  them taking offence about every little thing.<BR>I have a prediction. Frankie will spot bias against us as will some others. Cue a few 20 pagers. <IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/10310.gif"> <BR><BR><BR>

Given the bias Spiers has shown against our club in the last few years why wouldnt we be anything but cautious and pessimistic ?

[MisterC 12,455]

Tom Devine, BBC Scotland's favourite revisionist and Graham Spiers, Radio Snyde's(and formerly of ra Herald) notorious cock-up(oh matron)merchant.

We should remember Spiers as the hack that got Bitter Martin the sack.

Peter Maguire got sacked?

Yes.

Officially he 'left' to do more commentating.

Unofficially, he was sacked because of this:

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/enforcement/broadcast-bulletins/obb162/

Breach of Rule 6.2

In Breach

Superscoreboard

Clyde 1, 6 May 2010, 18:00

Introduction

Clyde 1 is a local commercial radio station broadcasting to Glasgow and parts of central Scotland, and Superscoreboard is a football programme broadcast on the station. Ofcom received four complaints that, on the day the vote in the General Election took place (6 May 2010) while the polls were open, one of the presenters of the programme, Peter Martin, actively endorsed support for the Labour party.

On reviewing the programme, Ofcom noted the following exchange between Peter Martin (PM), and his co-presenter, Graeme Spiers (GS):

GS: Peter, listen, never mind this, have you cast your vote?

PM: Well, Im going toI m going toIm going to now cast a vote within the next hour.

GS: Not one hour ago, I put a large cross beside the Kirkcaldy Ministers son (-1-).

PM: Yeah.

GS: Who youre going to vote for?

PM: Is itis it somethingLabour! Is it something you keep quiet, or is it something?

GS: Well, people think you do keep quiet about it, people get tetchy about it. Who do you thinkwho do you think Walter Smith (-2-) will vote for? Who do you think Lennon (-3-) will vote for?

PM: Let me tell you: Labour, both of them. Not a shadow of doubt. Walter Smith, his background. Its an absolute stonewall certainty. We dont even have to take calls.

Ofcom asked Bauer Radio (Bauer), who provides compliance for Clyde 1, for its comments under Rule 6.4 of the Code, which states:

Discussionof election and referendum issues must finish when the poll opens. (This refers to the opening of actual polling stations. This rule does not apply to any poll conducted entirely by post.).

Response

Bauer said that it had had in place in all its radio stations, including Clyde 1, thorough procedures concerning election coverage, and that initial guidelines were issued well ahead of the election, as well as repeated reminders in the run up to and on polling day itself.

Bauer said that although the presenters in the present case had been briefed about the guidelines covering election coverage, the guidelines were not at the forefront of their minds when they meandered into a conversation speculating around how certain individuals may have voted. Bauer added that the comments were not an attempt to canvass for any political party, but rather were a lighthearted view to make the sports show more topical. Bauer said that both presenters were aware of the seriousness of the matter and deeply regret entering into a conversation about the election which they recognise showed a considerable lack of judgement and awareness on their part.

In conclusion, Bauer said We accept this was a breach of code 6.4. In addition, Bauer said that it recognised that this was a serious matter and that the presenters concerned had been reprimanded and both taken off-air for a period of time.

Decision

Ofcom recognises the importance to the right to freedom of expression. This encompasses the broadcasters right to transmit and the audiences right to receive creative material, information and ideas without interference but subject to restrictions prescribed by law and necessary in a democratic society. This right is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights. However, Rule 6.4 of the Code requires that discussion of election issues must finish when the poll opens (at 07:00). This programme however was broadcast after the polls had opened and prior to the polls closing at 22:00.

In reaching its decision, Ofcom notes the broadcasters statement that the exchange between the presenters was intended to be lighthearted. However, we also note Bauers acceptance that there was a breach of the Code on this occasion. In this case, two radio presenters, whilst the polls were still open, discussed: firstly how they had voted, or intended to vote in the General Election taking place that day; and second, how other well-known personalities would be casting their votes.

Given the above, we considered this was a clear breach of Rule 6.4.

Breach of Rule 6.4

Footnotes:

1.- This was a reference to Gordon Brown, who was standing for election as the Labour party candidate in the constituency of Kirkcaldy.

2.- Manager of Glasgow Rangers Football Club.

3.- Acting manager of Celtic Football Club.

Thanks Frankie, this has put a smile on my face! Also, Maguire lies when he said he put his vote next to Gordon Browns name, he doesnt live in that constituency so theres no way he could have done that! Apologies for sounding like a pedantic politics student, but thats what I am!

By the way while I'm here, on BBC4 just now there is the history of parks program on part of it was about Glasgow Green and how we played our first few years there and Gary Ralston was on it. That was really good to see and goes to show that the BBC isnt always biased against us, although its Scottish branch isnt as objective as it could be out it that way.

Our history and how we were born as a club, a few boys that wanted to start up a team is something to be proud of in itself, we had the humblest of origins, not even owning a ball just a few guys chatting in a park and having an idea. That to me is the true spirit of football not setting up a club saying its for charity and then after a few games stop giving to the charities and keep the money for themselves and then the customers coming in by playing on the whole Irish/RC identity thing.

On this though I will reserve judgement until I see it then I will make my own mind up and may even share my thoughts on the matter.

MisterC

[AMMS 27]

Here's an idea, why don't we listen to it first then make our minds up?

I'd point out that any programme trying to condense the 'histories' of both Rangers and Celtic into 30 minutes is going to require a fair bit of editing and is bound to leave some pretty important aspects out.

I will listen and I hope sincerely that the content is truly objective.

As stated, Devine is a revisionist, two years past he compared the Covenanters with the Taliban.

Spiers is an apologist. In MON's first season he took ra Sellik to East End Park and in a nil-nil draw, ra GFITW routinely and continuously sectarianly abused Dunfermline's recent signing, Ian Ferguson. The vast majority of both broadcast and print media condemned their behaviour. MON stated, "Ian Ferguson is old and big enough to handle comments from the sidelines". Spiers took MON's lead and provided mitigation by starting his Herald match report with, "Ian Ferguson has all the charm of a child molestor". What was Spiers motivation for such an odious comment? I thought Ferguson was the victim in this case.

Similar to Frankie, I hold little hope for objectivity when BBC Scotland hands the lead for at least two of the programmes to these two, trailing a mountain of baggage.

I don't need the history lesson I'm familiar enough with both their 'work'. I, like everyone else on this thread, have no idea what the programme will be like. Chances are, given the time constraints, it will be broad brush and it will try and include as many 'headline' stories as it can. Any programme that tries to cram a history such as ours into only 30 minutes will inevitably fall far short (never mind having to give them equal billing too). A programme airing at 11.30am on Radio Scotland during the week is not going to be an investigative masterclass, the listnership is middle aged, middle class and mainly female and the programme will cater for that demographic.

As I said up thread we don't know who has written it or contributed yet. All of the presenters would have made me raise an eyebrow had this been a sports programme but I'll be surprised if it plays too fast and loose with the truth.

We'll see, I'll be happy to hold my hands up if i'm wrong.

[Boab 73]

British

Broadcasting

Catholics

says it all !

FFS!

says it all ! - about many a Rangers fan.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Love it - usual suspects with (as Frankie puts it) fingers poised over the offended (sorry complaint) button waiting to leap on the offended wagon. Moaning about unbiased reporting - lets try some unbiased listening?