Sectarianism - Facts before Fiction

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

SECTARIANISM – THE FACT BEFORE THE FICTION

Unless you are living on the dark side of the moon you will know that the Scottish government successfully pushed through its new sectarian legislation despite protests from opposition parties and a number of other groups outside politics.

As well as the protests there was clear and unequivocal advice from a few learned persons such as civil rights lawyers and Professors of Law who labelled the original Bill a significant breach of Human Rights as well as highlighting that it added nothing new to existing legislation.

Wee Eck though seems to have been determined though to see this through so to speak, and despite reservations from all political opponents the SNP have used their considerable majority at Hollyrood to make the new Bill law.

This prompted the issuing of a statement by their political opponents which stated...

“The SNP has used its majority to force through bad law that risks doing more harm than good. It sets a worrying precedent for this parliament.”

In response Community Safety Minister Roseanna Cunningham said the law will send a clear message to bigots.

“This simple point seems to have been lost in what I think is a fog of denial and sometimes apparently wilful misunderstanding,” she told MSPs.

“To be clear: these are clear and specific improvements on the existing law.

“Much of what we see at football celebrates nothing more hate and division and is done to antagonise and provoke old wounds. That is unacceptable and that must stop.

“We’ve heard much about this Government’s apparent failure to listen on this issue. But listen we have, time and time again, listening to the demands of the overwhelming majority of Scots who do want tougher action.”

Interesting choice of words Ms Cunningham...”fog of denial” and “wilful misunderstanding”

Allow me to elaborate.

Several months ago I wrote to Strathclyde Police asking for a breakdown of sectarian offences. They responded by contacting me personally to explain that their crime recording systems do not at present record sectarian offences as the are merely an aggravation of other offences. They were therefore unable to provide me with the information I requested, quite simply, because at present under Police Crime Recording procedures, it doesn't exist.

Which makes you wonder where the SNP are receiving their information from that there exists in Scotland a serious sectarian problem ? (Perhaps the ghost of First Minister Past.. Jack McConnell...and his comment about “Scotland's Secret Shame” have prompted them into action)

Perhaps rather than listening to the rantings of a beleaguered First Minster trying to deflect public attention away from his party's illegal war in Iraq they would have better listening to the advice of a respected academic such as Professor Steve Bruce of Aberdeen University who has spent over 20 years researching the perceived problem of sectarianism in Scotland.

Bruce's in depth research has sifted through considerable evidence in reaching its conclusions, with 2 particular areas of considerable significance :-

“First, social class: disadvantage is not itself proof of discrimination, but the link works in reverse - if Catholics are victimised in schooling and employment, they should have a lower class profile. What the 2001 Census shows is that there is now little difference between those raised as Catholics and those raised as Protestants. The group with the worst class profile is that of those raised with no religion (and, no, we have no idea why either).

Second, integration: just over half of married Catholics under 35 have non-Catholic spouses. In Northern Ireland, only 6 per cent of marriages are mixed. In the US, inter-racial marriages are also about 6 per cent. Despite segregated schooling, Scots now choose partners with no regard for religion.”

http://www.scotsman.com/news/beware_myths_that_tarnish_sectarian_scots_1_736106

Perhaps the most telling comment in that article is the comment that such myth is perpetuated by opinion leaders such as politicians and the mass media.

Step forward Ms Cunningham...at the double.

Of course fairly recently Strathclyde Police, aforementioned, threw their own oar into the debate highlighting the rise in Domestic Abuse on the day of Old Firm fixtures. While such a spike in statistics should be of considerable concern, it offers no explanation as to why sectarianism seems to be such a priority for the SNP government.

But might I respectfully suggest that Strathclyde Police could have gone one step further when they released those domestic abuse figures and clarified how many of the perpetrators were under the influence of alcohol at the time of the offence. Then and only then perhaps would we have drawn closer to discovering the real cause of Scotland's Shame – alcohol abuse.

While this SNP were performing political somersaults to legislate in respect of a problem which Scotland's foremost academic on the subject has proven only exists in the minds of some politicians and sections of the media the following was manifesting in our country.

Two out of three young men and one out of two young women drank more than twice the recommended daily benchmarks

Not only are more children in Scotland drinking, they are drinking more.

Young people age 16-24 in Scotland are drinking more

Two out of three young men and one out of two young women drank more than twice the recommended daily benchmarks

Scottish women are drinking more

More Scottish women are drinking excessively

Alcohol-related death rates for women have doubled in the last decade

1 in 5 road accident deaths in Scotland is due to drink driving

More than half of a sample of homeless people in Greater Glasgow in 1999 were drinking hazardously

Violent Crime

b. Of those victims of violent crime who could tell anything about their assailant,

72% reported that the assailant was under the influence of alcohol. [scottish Crime Survey 2000]

In 1990, alcohol-related deaths accounted for 1 in 100 deaths in Scotland. By 1999, this had risen to one in 40.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/health/alcoholproblems/docs/paap1-00.asp

As you can see the source for this information is the Scottish Government's own research.

“Fog of denial” ?

“Wilful misunderstanding” ?

I'll let you decide.

D'Artagnan at Facebook

[minstral 5,375]

Another good article Dart, and good to see you back again.

[ClintonGrey 365]

Would probably help your cause by not referring to them as the Scottish Nazi Party, makes you sound like a complete idiot.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Would probably help your cause by not referring to them as the Scottish Nazi Party, makes you sound like a complete idiot.

I dont Ive copied it from another site where its posted and they have a a way of changing certain sayings...allow me to sort it and thanks for pointing it out.

[ClintonGrey 365]

I dont Ive copied it from another site where its posted and they have a a way of changing certain sayings...allow me to sort it and thanks for pointing it out.

Fair enough mate.

[Hutchy WATP 462]

That last part with statistics is pretty much everything that's wrong with this country nowadays. The governments priorities are a fucking shambles.

Only in Scotland can singing an "offensive" song land you in jail for longer than being convicted of paedophilia and, speaking from personal experience of someone I know, longer than pulling a blade out and slashing fuck out of someone carrying a baby.

Never been this disillusioned with life in this country.

[AlCapone 7,678]

Excellent article

[gunslinger 270]

great stuff as always.

[Thermopylae 15,288]

SECTARIANISM – THE FACT BEFORE THE FICTION

Unless you are living on the dark side of the moon you will know that the Scottish government successfully pushed through its new sectarian legislation despite protests from opposition parties and a number of other groups outside politics.

As well as the protests there was clear and unequivocal advice from a few learned persons such as civil rights lawyers and Professors of Law who labelled the original Bill a significant breach of Human Rights as well as highlighting that it added nothing new to existing legislation.

Wee Eck though seems to have been determined though to see this through so to speak, and despite reservations from all political opponents the SNP have used their considerable majority at Westminster to make the new Bill law.

This prompted the issuing of a statement by their political opponents which stated...

“The SNP has used its majority to force through bad law that risks doing more harm than good. It sets a worrying precedent for this parliament.”

In response Community Safety Minister Roseanna Cunningham said the law will send a clear message to bigots.

“This simple point seems to have been lost in what I think is a fog of denial and sometimes apparently wilful misunderstanding,” she told MSPs.

“To be clear: these are clear and specific improvements on the existing law.

“Much of what we see at football celebrates nothing more hate and division and is done to antagonise and provoke old wounds. That is unacceptable and that must stop.

“We’ve heard much about this Government’s apparent failure to listen on this issue. But listen we have, time and time again, listening to the demands of the overwhelming majority of Scots who do want tougher action.”

Interesting choice of words Ms Cunningham...”fog of denial” and “wilful misunderstanding”

Allow me to elaborate.

Several months ago I wrote to Strathclyde Police asking for a breakdown of sectarian offences. They responded by contacting me personally to explain that their crime recording systems do not at present record sectarian offences as the are merely an aggravation of other offences. They were therefore unable to provide me with the information I requested, quite simply, because at present under Police Crime Recording procedures, it doesn't exist.

Which makes you wonder where the SNP are receiving their information from that there exists in Scotland a serious sectarian problem ? (Perhaps the ghost of First Minister Past.. Jack McConnell...and his comment about “Scotland's Secret Shame” have prompted them into action)

Perhaps rather than listening to the rantings of a beleaguered First Minster trying to deflect public attention away from his party's illegal war in Iraq they would have better listening to the advice of a respected academic such as Professor Steve Bruce of Aberdeen University who has spent over 20 years researching the perceived problem of sectarianism in Scotland.

Bruce's in depth research has sifted through considerable evidence in reaching its conclusions, with 2 particular areas of considerable significance :-

“First, social class: disadvantage is not itself proof of discrimination, but the link works in reverse - if Catholics are victimised in schooling and employment, they should have a lower class profile. What the 2001 Census shows is that there is now little difference between those raised as Catholics and those raised as Protestants. The group with the worst class profile is that of those raised with no religion (and, no, we have no idea why either).

Second, integration: just over half of married Catholics under 35 have non-Catholic spouses. In Northern Ireland, only 6 per cent of marriages are mixed. In the US, inter-racial marriages are also about 6 per cent. Despite segregated schooling, Scots now choose partners with no regard for religion.”

http://www.scotsman.com/news/beware_myths_that_tarnish_sectarian_scots_1_736106

Perhaps the most telling comment in that article is the comment that such myth is perpetuated by opinion leaders such as politicians and the mass media.

Step forward Ms Cunningham...at the double.

Of course fairly recently Strathclyde Police, aforementioned, threw their own oar into the debate highlighting the rise in Domestic Abuse on the day of Old Firm fixtures. While such a spike in statistics should be of considerable concern, it offers no explanation as to why sectarianism seems to be such a priority for the SNP government.

But might I respectfully suggest that Strathclyde Police could have gone one step further when they released those domestic abuse figures and clarified how many of the perpetrators were under the influence of alcohol at the time of the offence. Then and only then perhaps would we have drawn closer to discovering the real cause of Scotland's Shame – alcohol abuse.

While this SNP were performing political somersaults to legislate in respect of a problem which Scotland's foremost academic on the subject has proven only exists in the minds of some politicians and sections of the media the following was manifesting in our country.

Two out of three young men and one out of two young women drank more than twice the recommended daily benchmarks

Not only are more children in Scotland drinking, they are drinking more.

Young people age 16-24 in Scotland are drinking more

Two out of three young men and one out of two young women drank more than twice the recommended daily benchmarks

Scottish women are drinking more

More Scottish women are drinking excessively

Alcohol-related death rates for women have doubled in the last decade

1 in 5 road accident deaths in Scotland is due to drink driving

More than half of a sample of homeless people in Greater Glasgow in 1999 were drinking hazardously

Violent Crime

b. Of those victims of violent crime who could tell anything about their assailant,

72% reported that the assailant was under the influence of alcohol. [scottish Crime Survey 2000]

In 1990, alcohol-related deaths accounted for 1 in 100 deaths in Scotland. By 1999, this had risen to one in 40.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/health/alcoholproblems/docs/paap1-00.asp

As you can see the source for this information is the Scottish Government's own research.

“Fog of denial” ?

“Wilful misunderstanding” ?

I'll let you decide.

D'Artagnan at Facebook

Kinda sums up their ignorance of the game for me because this could be said of all the great derbies and rivalries in world football. I just wonder if they are would be in favour of Scotland playing England or would that also celebrate nothing more than hate and division and be done to antagonise and provoke old wounds?

[Jocky Broon 207]

3rd paragraph-SNP have used their considerable majority at Westminster.Shouldnt that be Holyrood or am I just stupid?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

3rd paragraph-SNP have used their considerable majority at Westminster.Shouldnt that be Holyrood or am I just stupid?

No I am...thanks...

Want a job as my proof reader ?

[Jocky Broon 207]

No I am...thanks...

Want a job as my proof reader ?

No negative intent in my question,D'Artagnan.Great article.I have the utmost respect for Vanguard Bears.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

No negative intent in my question,D'Artagnan.Great article.I have the utmost respect for Vanguard Bears.

I know there wasnt....Im getting back into the swings of things after my enforced absence.

I cant even claim Freudian slip on that one !!!

[Spliffy 643]

Fantastic article, can not say enough how i value the efforts of VB.

[keithgersbear 3,225]

Good article D.

[deerfc2010 4]

great article, Salmond should stop persecuting football supporters and do something thats positive, like dragging his arse down to wooton-basset to pay respect to our guys coming home in fucking boxes fighting his and camerons stupid fucking war!!

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

great article, Salmond should stop persecuting football supporters and do something thats positive, like dragging his arse down to wooton-basset to pay respect to our guys coming home in fucking boxes fighting his and camerons stupid fucking war!!

They are an easy target dee... but Prof Bruce put a real perspective on it recently when responding to questions about the new legislation...

The majority of people in Scotland dont go to football matches...but of those who do the majority do not indulge in any kind of sectarian behaviour.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

They are an easy target dee... but Prof Bruce put a real perspective on it recently when responding to questions about the new legislation...

The majority of people in Scotland dont go to football matches...but of those who do the majority do not indulge in any kind of sectarian behaviour.

Your point is entirely accurate. My 15 year old son has no inclinations in that area; his friends who are in many other areas of the stadium don't either. Rangers is purely football, and I never even knew it in my family growing up. What this does, for any government, is give the allusion of actually doing something. Governments and nations need the illusion of myth anyway, they build monuments etc, in order that they condense the idea of actually doing something. Most advances in societies etc happen outwith Government, ie science, technology, art; Government in many ways can be a parasite. We need Governance, but a healthy check on the limits of Government is what Democracy thrives on. We may sometimes weary of those who rule over us, but we should never grow weary of the Democratic mandate embedded in our Constitution

[Chef 436]

great article, Salmond should stop persecuting football supporters and do something thats positive, like dragging his arse down to wooton-basset to pay respect to our guys coming home in fucking boxes fighting his and camerons stupid fucking war!!

Who's war, funny how labour seem clean of every wrong doin

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

Who's war, funny how labour seem clean of every wrong doin

And Dr Sex Pest in particular

[Adoniram 1,919]

I should point out that D'Artagnan is his own man and although he posts on VB his work is his own and is always first class.

The biggest frustration i and no doubt he and many others have is when you see articles like this along with Chris Graham, John DC Gow, erudite posters on here and on VB is how they are deliberately ignored. I say deliberately because there is no other explanation for it because they tell the truth. They look at the facts and figures and put them across clearly and concisely and that is why they are ignored. They do not fit with the "message" or the votes they are trying to win.

People higher up the chain or in positions of power and influence should be shamed....yes shamed in to speaking out and using articles like this in Holyrood to expose those with an agenda.

[Chef 436]

And Dr Sex Pest in particular

Oh whatever happened with him, ever such a pleasant man

[Turnberry18 3,204]

I should point out that D'Artagnan is his own man and although he posts on VB his work is his own and is always first class.

The biggest frustration i and no doubt he and many others have is when you see articles like this along with Chris Graham, John DC Gow, erudite posters on here and on VB is how they are deliberately ignored. I say deliberately because there is no other explanation for it because they tell the truth. They look at the facts and figures and put them across clearly and concisely and that is why they are ignored. They do not fit with the "message" or the votes they are trying to win.

People higher up the chain or in positions of power and influence should be shamed....yes shamed in to speaking out and using articles like this in Holyrood to expose those with an agenda.

Well put. You have credited a few posters on here, and I would you yourself to that list as being no mean poster yourself.

I do wonder about the 'implied' Rangers fan when I read these types of post. I have yet to meet this implied Rangers fan in abundance. The knuckle dragger is a useful myth to conjure up when, in this case, you wish to demonise those who oppose you. Every leader in politics seeks a monument, something for us to remember us by, it is a pity that this issue is seen as the most convenient way for them to build a monument.

[Adoniram 1,919]

Well put. You have credited a few posters on here, and I would you yourself to that list as being no mean poster yourself.

I do wonder about the 'implied' Rangers fan when I read these types of post. I have yet to meet the Rangers fan in abundance. The knuckle dragger is a useful myth to conjure up when, in this case, you wish to demonise those who oppose you. Every leader in politics seeks a monument, something for us to remember us by, it is a pity that this issue is seen as the most convenient way for them to build a monument.

The biggest frustration i and many others have is when you see fans just not caring about things that directly affect the club or the fans or our image. I am realistic enough to know that many simply have no interest in the politics side of things and i have to accept that. However the biggest frustration for me is knowing that there are so many fans and groups who do recognise the many enemies we face and yet will not group together and defeat them WITH EASE.

I have always maintained that if we can take around 250,000 fans to Manchester. Another 35,000 inside Ibrox and countless tens of thousands in pubs and clubs all over Scotland and indeed all over the world then just what would we achieve with unity.

And thanks for the post but i feel it's always fair and proper not to take credit for things we have not done.

[Turnberry18 3,204]

The biggest frustration i and many others have is when you see fans just not caring about things that directly affect the club or the fans or our image. I am realistic enough to know that many simply have no interest in the politics side of things and i have to accept that. However the biggest frustration for me is knowing that there are so many fans and groups who do recognise the many enemies we face and yet will not group together and defeat them WITH EASE.

I have always maintained that if we can take around 250,000 fans to Manchester. Another 35,000 inside Ibrox and countless tens of thousands in pubs and clubs all over Scotland and indeed all over the world then just what would we achieve with unity.

And thanks for the post but i feel it's always fair and proper not to take credit for things we have not done.

Your frustration is entirely normal, but every organisation has adherents who won't, can't, or don't have the ability to do the things that others do. Rangers fans would be hard to unite, especially when there are a few representative bodies, some of whom don't co-operate, might have mutual suspicion, or just plain don't like or trust one another.

I personally think if Rangers fans groups were more united that would help with the kind of problems you rightly suggest exists. The Zeitgiest is against Rangers, especially in Scotland when there is a move towards independence by many powerful forces in Scottish society.

Against the backdrop you rightly portray, it is important that those fans groups articulate the case of Rangers properly- Rangers themselves should be doing that anyway and I detect with the new regime that is happening; but the fans groups, as well, have a responsibility to be articulate and put the matters that frustrate Rangers fans as articulate as they can.