Rangers should drop their Protestant links..

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Briton I dont really want to go off topic on an excellent thread - But quite simply Christianity does not meet the criteria for a cult as you suggest.

Cult - The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside of the mainstream of Western religion.

Mainstream western religion IS Christianity.

Aye it is off topic but imo the difference between a cult and a religion is basically a headcount.

[KDI 0]

I think that the saddest thing about this thread is that protestantism and catholicism have been hijacked in the west of Scotland. I still find it ludicrous that someone can claim to be a protestant or catholic while having no living faith in Jesus Christ. The effect of this, in my mind, is that any claims of catholic or protestant heritage are only thinly-veiled attempts to justify hatred and bigotry. I'm all for sporting rivalry, but when it's dressed up in religious garb then it has to be examined.

This is one point that is always lost in these arguments. If Christianity, in its sects, is based on Jesus Christ, then love would be the order of the day. Even Martin Luther protested because he loved the catholic church and wanted to save it. In Christianity, the key element is not dedication to a brand of church, or a historical church movement, but to Jesus. Jesus himself railed against the pharisees who used religion as a way to justify their own brand of bigotry and superiority.

It's so deeply ingrained that it's hard to see a way out. But I really wish that people could let down their defensiveness and finally be honest - this football thing has nothing to do with God, Jesus Christ or the church. That opens a new, fresh playing field that can still have rivalry and competition without the divisive hatred.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

I think that the saddest thing about this thread is that protestantism and catholicism have been hijacked in the west of Scotland. I still find it ludicrous that someone can claim to be a protestant or catholic while having no living faith in Jesus Christ. The effect of this, in my mind, is that any claims of catholic or protestant heritage are only thinly-veiled attempts to justify hatred and bigotry. I'm all for sporting rivalry, but when it's dressed up in religious garb then it has to be examined.

This is one point that is always lost in these arguments. If Christianity, in its sects, is based on Jesus Christ, then love would be the order of the day. Even Martin Luther protested because he loved the catholic church and wanted to save it. In Christianity, the key element is not dedication to a brand of church, or a historical church movement, but to Jesus. Jesus himself railed against the pharisees who used religion as a way to justify their own brand of bigotry and superiority.

It's so deeply ingrained that it's hard to see a way out. But I really wish that people could let down their defensiveness and finally be honest - this football thing has nothing to do with God, Jesus Christ or the church. That opens a new, fresh playing field that can still have rivalry and competition without the divisive hatred.

Which brings us back to the original question - Why can one side be a symbol of their faith whilst another cant ?

[polar bear 0]

Can I just say guys - some of the contributions within this thread are absolutely outstanding - well done to all

I'll second that 'D'Artagnan.

[polar bear 0]

Aye it is off topic but imo the difference between a cult and a religion is basically a headcount.

Absolutely!

[BLUE CYCLOPS 26]

As someone has just pointed out,sect=sectarianism and since protestantism is a breakaway sect from "the one true church" then it follows that we are sectarian in their eyes.

If,however,we accept the more modern understanding of the term (sectarianism=the blind and unreasonable hatred or intolerance towards another faith) then it is clear that Catholicism (along with radical Islam) are the most sectarian bigoted organisations in the world.

I can understand their being offended by certain songs but how much more offensive is it to find that your kids are not suitable school partners,that your marriage (if conducted in a church) is not recognised by their faith. That any children of a mixed marriage not brought up as catholics are considered unclean/heathen,or not legitimate in some way.

One a scale of 1 to 10 catholic bigotry far outweighs any stupid songs sung at Ibrox and their bigotry/intolerance is a matter of faith. That is why they can make the most disgusting accusations against Rangers while blindly ignoring any faults on their part.

If I have to share a stadium with bigots, then give me the idiot singing about being "up to his knees" than the hypocrite

who considers my faith/family to be 2nd. class.

[KDI 0]

Jesus Christ has nothing to do with football, or religious hatred, although many have tried to pin it on him over the centuries.

Of course, its fun to create a standoff - it's like the cold war: no one wants to disarm first. Then we scour the media for evidence of unfair treatment, because we feel that it justifies our position of standing firm, and standing firm feels honorable. Both sides do it, and it's a vicious circle.

The reason I think Rangers and Celtic should drop religious claims is because they have nothing to do with the cause of Jesus Christ on the earth. There are those on here who have been honest and say they don't go to church or practice a faith in God. So, if they were to take a step further, they could then say that the notion of protestantism (or catholicism) doesn't apply to them. Then, those who are practicing Christians would have no interest in creating division, strife or hatred. They may have an interest in sporting rivalry, but true believers would be appalled at the idea of the name of Jesus or the reputation of his church being draped over a football club's rivalry against another team.

What I have said doesn't feel like much of an answer, and I'm no expert on any of this stuff. There are feelings that run deep, and go back over a hundred years. It's difficult and messy and there's a lot of pride involved. But doesn't anyone feel like they've just had enough?

[*Manticore* 1,893]

I think that the saddest thing about this thread is that protestantism and catholicism have been hijacked in the west of Scotland. I still find it ludicrous that someone can claim to be a protestant or catholic while having no living faith in Jesus Christ. The effect of this, in my mind, is that any claims of catholic or protestant heritage are only thinly-veiled attempts to justify hatred and bigotry. I'm all for sporting rivalry, but when it's dressed up in religious garb then it has to be examined.

This is one point that is always lost in these arguments. If Christianity, in its sects, is based on Jesus Christ, then love would be the order of the day. Even Martin Luther protested because he loved the catholic church and wanted to save it. In Christianity, the key element is not dedication to a brand of church, or a historical church movement, but to Jesus. Jesus himself railed against the pharisees who used religion as a way to justify their own brand of bigotry and superiority.

It's so deeply ingrained that it's hard to see a way out. But I really wish that people could let down their defensiveness and finally be honest - this football thing has nothing to do with God, Jesus Christ or the church. That opens a new, fresh playing field that can still have rivalry and competition without the divisive hatred.

But KDI religions are cultural phenomena as well as supernatural belief systems.

[minstral 5,375]

Jesus Christ has nothing to do with football, or religious hatred, although many have tried to pin it on him over the centuries.

Of course, its fun to create a standoff - it's like the cold war: no one wants to disarm first. Then we scour the media for evidence of unfair treatment, because we feel that it justifies our position of standing firm, and standing firm feels honorable. Both sides do it, and it's a vicious circle.

The reason I think Rangers and Celtic should drop religious claims is because they have nothing to do with the cause of Jesus Christ on the earth. There are those on here who have been honest and say they don't go to church or practice a faith in God. So, if they were to take a step further, they could then say that the notion of protestantism (or catholicism) doesn't apply to them. Then, those who are practicing Christians would have no interest in creating division, strife or hatred. They may have an interest in sporting rivalry, but true believers would be appalled at the idea of the name of Jesus or the reputation of his church being draped over a football club's rivalry against another team.

What I have said doesn't feel like much of an answer, and I'm no expert on any of this stuff. There are feelings that run deep, and go back over a hundred years. It's difficult and messy and there's a lot of pride involved. But doesn't anyone feel like they've just had enough?

jesus did have a favourite team and this link will show why.

http://members.aol.com/bushnbin2/rangers.swf

[KDI 0]

I wish I could laugh.

Actually, I feel more like crying when I see that.

Sorry minstral.

[KDI 0]

But KDI religions are cultural phenomena as well as supernatural belief systems.

Absolutely. but the cultural phenomenon stream out of the supernatural beliefs. When the cultural phenomenon no longer echo or resemble the supernatural beliefs, then they should be examined and dealt with.

Phenomenon is hard to type.

[Briton 394]

Briton I dont really want to go off topic on an excellent thread - But quite simply Christianity does not meet the criteria for a cult as you suggest.

Yes it does. Check the link.

Cult - The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside of the mainstream of Western religion.

It can be pejorative but not always. Using the word cult to describe Christianity is perfectly correct...check any dictionary.

Mainstream western religion IS Christianity.

I know that.

[minstral 5,375]

I wish I could laugh.

Actually, I feel more like crying when I see that.

Sorry minstral.

its only a laugh mate and i am sorry if i offended youi just thought we could add a bit of humour into the thread.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Absolutely. but the cultural phenomenon stream out of the supernatural beliefs. When the cultural phenomenon no longer echo or resemble the supernatural beliefs, then they should be examined and dealt with.

I'd rather keep the culture and lose the supernatural rubbish.

Phenomenon is hard to type.

Even harder at midnight.

[Build_My_Gallows 0]

"“When Marvin Andrews, the ex-Rangers defender who is a born-again Christian, described gays as "an abomination" who had "a demon in their spirit", this sort of pre-scientific worldview only highlighted football's image as a backwater of attitudes and prejudices.

Andrews is an otherwise smashing human being, but there were two questions I wanted to ask him following his "gays" outburst. One was: what would he say to a devout and conscientious fellow-Christian who also, co-incidentally, happened to be gay?â€

"

Spiers Late August last year...

Andrews would probably point out to the christian gay that by leading a homosexual lifestyle he is going against the word of his own faith. I like to think that he'd tell the man that there is time yet for him to be saved and to give up such a sinful lifestyle.

Doubt he'd attack him or anything FFS!

As for the main problem, Speirs is a complete hypocrite. Any Rangers supporter who gives this reptile the time of day needs their head looked at. A more vile creature I have never seen!

In my opinion we're a protestant club which in no way, shape or form means excluding others of other religions. People like "The Lad" who was posting earlier on this thread are completely welcome at Ibrox to me.

[evilcockney 4]

Andrews would probably point out to the christian gay that by leading a homosexual lifestyle he is going against the word of his own faith. I like to think that he'd tell the man that there is time yet for him to be saved and to give up such a sinful lifestyle.

Doubt he'd attack him or anything FFS!

As for the main problem, Speirs is a complete hypocrite. Any Rangers supporter who gives this reptile the time of day needs their head looked at. A more vile creature I have never seen!

In my opinion we're a protestant club which in no way, shape or form means excluding others of other religions. People like "The Lad" who was posting earlier on this thread are completely welcome at Ibrox to me.

Your last point BMG is how i veiw the club in the modern era, well put.

[ayeready 0]

rangers are a football club and should always be seen in that light. rangers fans come from all over and believe in all sorts of stuff. to say that does not say that our past isnt scottish or presbyterian or whatever, it clearly is. more than that though, it is BRITISH and that is what i think we should be focussing on coz that is more inclusive and we are inclusive.

[snoopyboymason 13]

we should never ever drop our protestant links it's what we are

[KDI 0]

I'd rather keep the culture and lose the supernatural rubbish.

That's how we got where we are.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

That's how we got where we are.

Care to expand on that?

[Guest orangpendek]

BMG is in danger of missing the point, the bigger picture over the 'we are a protestant club' deal. having lived in the WoS all my life, i can say with certainty that there is little or no enthusiasm for organised religion round here - even the roman church is in decline, and it's well known how tight a grip they keep on their flock. therefore, logically, it seems luddite to insist that a football club must retain its religious identity even while that religion is in what must be a terminal decline.

i can't speak for religious power in ulster, but it has to be said altho it's harsh - a glasgow club cannot have its identity dictated by the situation in a different place (choosing words carefully). history shows us that no external influence can eternally drive institutions, countries etc. change is as natural as night following day, and if we can say one thing with certainty, this is a period of great change.

[davie_bluenose 20]

One thing in all of this.

Should the pictures of the Queen be removed from the dressing room?

I don't think so myself, but i'm surprised the likes of Speirs hasn't attacked Rangers for that yet ( or not that i know of)

[Guest orangpendek]

we have pictures of the queen on the wall? pictures of the legends of the past sounds more appropriate to me. or scud, like in most dressing rooms.

[davie_bluenose 20]

we have pictures of the queen on the wall? pictures of the legends of the past sounds more appropriate to me. or scud, like in most dressing rooms.

We have for years, one of them was put up by Terry Butcher when he played for us.

[Gaffbear 4,101]

What is wrong with putting a picture of the head of the U.K on the wall,every U.S school has that balloon Bush on the wall.

We are a British club who were forced into being a protestant club through the bigotry of our neighbours who said they will help the east end poor.....when 80% of the east end was British protestant they helped the minority catholic and left the rest...that's where the myth stops and the real Celtic and roman catholic religion starts.

Brutal,racist,seperatist,thieving,murderous and backward.

I'm proud of who and what i am and although this is the 21st century i want to keep us as a liberal protestant club who welcomes others no matter their religion unlike the catholic schools in this country(the real reason for sectarianism)