Did Rangers lose their way when Donald Findlay left the club

[Ibroxblue 122]

Not sure whether it's been covered already but I can't remember Findlay ever defending the club or the fans when he was on the board. He very much played second fiddle to Murray.

To be frank he always struck me as a buffoon (no matter how good he might be at his job of criminal lawyer) who liked to show off to the fans. Singing songs like The Billy Boys was at best foolish and an undignified thing for a board member and senior advocate to do. I thought we were well rid of him as he displayed poor judgement at the very least.

Findlay may not have did a lot of work publicly (in terms of defending the club/fans) but behind the scenes he certainly would have I'm sure.

I've met Findlay a few times and if I'm honest I don't particularly like the guy either. I've also already said he did the right thing by resigning despite the unfortunate nature of how the incident was reported. Meanwhile, it's just strange how other such high profile figures weren't pursued with the same vigour despite doing worse stuff (such as glorifying terrorists, spitting on scarves and referring to you and I as DOBs).

How would you explain that inconsistency?

The evidence against Findlay was much stronger.

As to what he may or may not have done behind the scenes, we can only guess.

[dummiesoot 16,123]

Not sure whether it's been covered already but I can't remember Findlay ever defending the club or the fans when he was on the board. He very much played second fiddle to Murray.

To be frank he always struck me as a buffoon (no matter how good he might be at his job of criminal lawyer) who liked to show off to the fans. Singing songs like The Billy Boys was at best foolish and an undignified thing for a board member and senior advocate to do. I thought we were well rid of him as he displayed poor judgement at the very least.

So in short you believe it is a coincidence that all the shite has hit since DF left?

Not really what I said, now is it?

in your first paragraph yes that is how I intepreted it any way. Did I pick you up wrongly in that first paragraph, if so please clarify what you meant by

" can't remember Findlay ever defending the club or the fans when he was on the board. He very much played second fiddle to Murray"

[Ibroxblue 122]

Not sure whether it's been covered already but I can't remember Findlay ever defending the club or the fans when he was on the board. He very much played second fiddle to Murray.

To be frank he always struck me as a buffoon (no matter how good he might be at his job of criminal lawyer) who liked to show off to the fans. Singing songs like The Billy Boys was at best foolish and an undignified thing for a board member and senior advocate to do. I thought we were well rid of him as he displayed poor judgement at the very least.

So in short you believe it is a coincidence that all the shite has hit since DF left?

Not really what I said, now is it?

in your first paragraph yes that is how I intepreted it any way. Did I pick you up wrongly in that first paragraph, if so please clarify what you meant by

" can't remember Findlay ever defending the club or the fans when he was on the board. He very much played second fiddle to Murray"

I think it's pretty plain. I don't recall anything in particular he did to defend the club or fans. If anyone else can (or I've missed something in this thread) I'm willing to listen. Moreover David Murray is, if anything, even more firmly in charge of the club now than he was then, owning a huge percentage of the shares.

[bauba30 1]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

[bauba30 1]

Not sure whether it's been covered already but I can't remember Findlay ever defending the club or the fans when he was on the board. He very much played second fiddle to Murray.

To be frank he always struck me as a buffoon (no matter how good he might be at his job of criminal lawyer) who liked to show off to the fans. Singing songs like The Billy Boys was at best foolish and an undignified thing for a board member and senior advocate to do. I thought we were well rid of him as he displayed poor judgement at the very least.

Ah, the voice of reason - well said that man!

[ayeready 0]

yet another excellent thread. this mb rocks!

i think he is the kinda guy u need in your corner and when you have someone who is brave and willing to fight for what is right then there is always a good affect to it. need more like him for sure

[bauba30 1]

yet another excellent thread. this mb rocks!

i think he is the kinda guy u need in your corner and when you have someone who is brave and willing to fight for what is right then there is always a good affect to it. need more like him for sure

What good is someone who is brave and willing to fight if his general has a policy of appeasement?

[Leiper 0]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

[bauba30 1]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

I backed up my claim more than once mate - if you cant be assed to find it then that is your loss

What is stupid is your approach here - do you honestly expect me to say, "you know Leiper, you are right - I herefore change my stance on the subject"

Not gonna happen - DF was stupid, negligent, naive, showed ill-judgement whilst representing Rangers - when it was all put together he resigned/was pushed - and rightly so IMO

If you think otherwise, then Cool - but I wont criticise you for your opinion

[Leiper 0]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

I backed up my claim more than once mate - if you cant be assed to find it then that is your loss

What is stupid is your approach here - do you honestly expect me to say, "you know Leiper, you are right - I herefore change my stance on the subject"

Not gonna happen - DF was stupid, negligent, naive, showed ill-judgement whilst representing Rangers - when it was all put together he resigned/was pushed - and rightly so IMO

If you think otherwise, then Cool - but I wont criticise you for your opinion

I'm not criticising your opinion because it differs from mine...I am criticising it because you will not back it up. I appreciate you feel the way DF acted was stupid, negligent and naive after singing the Billy Boys and chanting add-ons.

However to sing The Sash, Rangers representative or not, that is not stupid, negligent or naive.

To be honest, after the discussion in this thread with you, I do not expect anything of the sort. Actually, I expect you will try and deflect the issue, continue with your personal jibes and again fail to answer my question.

[Frankie 505]

The evidence against Findlay was much stronger.

As to what he may or may not have done behind the scenes, we can only guess.

It wasn't any stronger than that of the Pearson video. The Lennon video may not have had sound but it was pretty obvious what was said. I don't understand why some fans are willing to prevaricate for the Celtic players but are happy to label a Rangers fan as a buffoon or a fool based on a similarly grainy video.

Now, how would you explain the glaring inconsistency in the way the media approached the stories?

[bauba30 1]

The evidence against Findlay was much stronger.

As to what he may or may not have done behind the scenes, we can only guess.

It wasn't any stronger than that of the Pearson video. The Lennon video may not have had sound but it was pretty obvious what was said. I don't understand why some fans are willing to prevaricate for the Celtic players but are happy to label a Rangers fan as a buffoon or a fool based on a similarly grainy video.

Now, how would you explain the glaring inconsistency in the way the media approached the stories?

Frankie - I saw both videos and the lennon clip third hand. The DF video was very very incriminating - the Pearson one very much less so. The Lennon one was just as incriminating in my eyes.

What we had was 2 organizations dealing with the situations in different ways, one dealt with with class and one without, again IMO

We have been back and forth on that - can we just not accept that I am not going to chage your mind on the videos and you are not going to change mine? lol

[bauba30 1]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

I backed up my claim more than once mate - if you cant be assed to find it then that is your loss

What is stupid is your approach here - do you honestly expect me to say, "you know Leiper, you are right - I herefore change my stance on the subject"

Not gonna happen - DF was stupid, negligent, naive, showed ill-judgement whilst representing Rangers - when it was all put together he resigned/was pushed - and rightly so IMO

If you think otherwise, then Cool - but I wont criticise you for your opinion

I'm not criticising your opinion because it differs from mine...I am criticising it because you will not back it up. I appreciate you feel the way DF acted was stupid, negligent and naive after singing the Billy Boys and chanting add-ons.

However to sing The Sash, Rangers representative or not, that is not stupid, negligent or naive.

To be honest, after the discussion in this thread with you, I do not expect anything of the sort. Actually, I expect you will try and deflect the issue, continue with your personal jibes and again fail to answer my question.

You say I will use personal jibes?

Pot....Kettle......Mrs

Let me ask this of you then - if you wont go to the bother of searching the thread - why do you think it is unwise for a Rangers official - a board member at that, to sing the Sash at an event when he is representing the club

Bearing in mind what the song represents to a great deal of non Rangers fans in the country?

[Frankie 505]

both videos and the lennon clip third hand. The DF video was very very incriminating - the Pearson one very much less so. The Lennon one was just as incriminating in my eyes.

What we had was 2 organizations dealing with the situations in different ways, one dealt with with class and one without, again IMO

We have been back and forth on that - can we just nto accept that I am not going to chage your mind on the videos and you are not going to change mine? lol

I accept your opinion on the videos and I respect you feel differently about one of them. However, my main point remains unanswered.

Yes, Rangers and Celtic did deal with the situations differently but the point I'm trying to make is how the media affected their decisions and how such obvious inconsistencies could affect future decisions. As I have showed (and despite your claims it doesn't happen) media interventions have contributed to players and clubs being disciplined in the past - particularly with regard to our club. What happens if the media continue to be unfair in their coverage of such issues? Are we to be deducted points while others are not?

My other question also still stands - how would you explain the glaring inconsistency in the way the media approached the stories - especially since you agree the Lennon/Findlay debacles were equally incriminating?

[Ibroxblue 122]

The evidence against Findlay was much stronger.

As to what he may or may not have done behind the scenes, we can only guess.

It wasn't any stronger than that of the Pearson video.

Of course it was. Findlay was filmed at length clearly singing complete songs.

[Leiper 0]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

I backed up my claim more than once mate - if you cant be assed to find it then that is your loss

What is stupid is your approach here - do you honestly expect me to say, "you know Leiper, you are right - I herefore change my stance on the subject"

Not gonna happen - DF was stupid, negligent, naive, showed ill-judgement whilst representing Rangers - when it was all put together he resigned/was pushed - and rightly so IMO

If you think otherwise, then Cool - but I wont criticise you for your opinion

I'm not criticising your opinion because it differs from mine...I am criticising it because you will not back it up. I appreciate you feel the way DF acted was stupid, negligent and naive after singing the Billy Boys and chanting add-ons.

However to sing The Sash, Rangers representative or not, that is not stupid, negligent or naive.

To be honest, after the discussion in this thread with you, I do not expect anything of the sort. Actually, I expect you will try and deflect the issue, continue with your personal jibes and again fail to answer my question.

You say I will use personal jibes?

Pot....Kettle......Mrs

Let me ask this of you then - if you wont go to the bother of searching the thread - why do you think it is unwise for a Rangers official - a board member at that, to sing the Sash at an event when he is representing the club

Bearing in mind what the song represents to a great deal of non Rangers fans in the country?

I have not posted any personal jibes at all.

I do not think it is unwise...I assume you meant why do I think it is not stupid to sing the song whilst representing Rangers?

Nice way of deflecting my question. I'll oblige anyway...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sash

The lyrics of the song are here. None of which are sectarian or would cause offense to anyone.

Also...

"For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!"

I imagine, to a lot of people, it represents nothing. Just another song belted out at a football game. You seem to be dodging one little factor though - it was sung at a private function.

I am not going to criticise Alex McLeish for singing the FOS at a Scotland vs England game when he represents Scotland.

Now, could you explain to me why you feel it is stupid for a Rangers representative to sing the Sash at a private function?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Sash - Folk Song

Fields of Athenrye - Folk Song

1 club representative sings one at a club function - castigated and hounded by the press and resigned.

2 club representatives sing one at a club functiion - swept under the carpet.

[bauba30 1]

both videos and the lennon clip third hand. The DF video was very very incriminating - the Pearson one very much less so. The Lennon one was just as incriminating in my eyes.

What we had was 2 organizations dealing with the situations in different ways, one dealt with with class and one without, again IMO

We have been back and forth on that - can we just nto accept that I am not going to chage your mind on the videos and you are not going to change mine? lol

I accept your opinion on the videos and I respect you feel differently about one of them. However, my main point remains unanswered.

Yes, Rangers and Celtic did deal with the situations differently but the point I'm trying to make is how the media affected their decisions and how such obvious inconsistencies could affect future decisions. As I have showed (and despite your claims it doesn't happen) media interventions have contributed to players and clubs being disciplined in the past - particularly with regard to our club. What happens if the media continue to be unfair in their coverage of such issues? Are we to be deducted points while others are not?

My other question also still stands - how would you explain the glaring inconsistency in the way the media approached the stories - especially since you agree the Lennon/Findlay debacles were equally incriminating?

As regards the media question - its a tough one to answer as it requires a gerneralization - i.e - all media are against Rangers, all are biased etc. I cannot say that they are and I do not believe that they are. I believe a minority might be, I also believe that there is a lot of bad reporting, as well as a lot of tabloid style reporting.

Just a question - do we know specific instances when media intervention led to suspensions? Or is it just assumed to be the case? And if we know it to be the case, is there one case where the media have intervened and the suspension has been unjust? Surely if someone transgresses or brings shame to the club, and it is missed by the authorities, but the media highlight it, then the trangressor has gotten what they deserve

I don't know, I was brought up in a "you reap what you sow" kinda family, so that is the way i tend to look at these things.

As for getting points deducted. If we consistantly sing banned songs, then we deserve it - whatever Celtic fans do. But I think the SFA will be treading very carefully on that one - there is a legal road that they will not want to go down so unless someones fans are a disgrace week after week, I cannot see them having the you-know-what to do much about it

[BLUE CYCLOPS 26]

Considering that Celtic declared the Hartson/Pearson incident "not proven" because Pearsons voice could not be heard clearly or separately from the other voices. Therefore that was sufficient excuse for Celtic to find it "not proven". The only problem with that scenario is when the question of the Lennon death threats in NI are examined. An anonomous phone call threatening Lennons life was made to the police. The person making the threat claimed to be representing a loyalist organisation. Strangely, he was not able to give the code word which all these organisations have to prevent false claims being made.

No one knows who made that phone call,but it came at a time which was extremely fortunate for a whole media blitz to be developed around it. Lennon was able to pull out of playing for NI and play the victim from then on.

Irish nationalists started a campaign to have a new stadium built because of sectarianism. A campaign which is reaching a bitter climax now.

The whole Lennon thing was neatly tied in with Rangers/Celtic, and the demonisation of Rangers started to gain ground.

Celtic never questioned the authenticity of the phone call and yet it was infinitly more suspect than the Pearson tape which was "not proven".

[bauba30 1]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

I backed up my claim more than once mate - if you cant be assed to find it then that is your loss

What is stupid is your approach here - do you honestly expect me to say, "you know Leiper, you are right - I herefore change my stance on the subject"

Not gonna happen - DF was stupid, negligent, naive, showed ill-judgement whilst representing Rangers - when it was all put together he resigned/was pushed - and rightly so IMO

If you think otherwise, then Cool - but I wont criticise you for your opinion

I'm not criticising your opinion because it differs from mine...I am criticising it because you will not back it up. I appreciate you feel the way DF acted was stupid, negligent and naive after singing the Billy Boys and chanting add-ons.

However to sing The Sash, Rangers representative or not, that is not stupid, negligent or naive.

To be honest, after the discussion in this thread with you, I do not expect anything of the sort. Actually, I expect you will try and deflect the issue, continue with your personal jibes and again fail to answer my question.

You say I will use personal jibes?

Pot....Kettle......Mrs

Let me ask this of you then - if you wont go to the bother of searching the thread - why do you think it is unwise for a Rangers official - a board member at that, to sing the Sash at an event when he is representing the club

Bearing in mind what the song represents to a great deal of non Rangers fans in the country?

I have not posted any personal jibes at all.

I do not think it is unwise...I assume you meant why do I think it is not stupid to sing the song whilst representing Rangers?

Nice way of deflecting my question. I'll oblige anyway...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sash

The lyrics of the song are here. None of which are sectarian or would cause offense to anyone.

Also...

"For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!"

I imagine, to a lot of people, it represents nothing. Just another song belted out at a football game. You seem to be dodging one little factor though - it was sung at a private function.

I am not going to criticise Alex McLeish for singing the FOS at a Scotland vs England game when he represents Scotland.

Now, could you explain to me why you feel it is stupid for a Rangers representative to sing the Sash at a private function?

Yes, it was sung at a private function - whcih members of the public attented. Making it in a public setting.

I agree that the Sash without the add-ons is unoffensive to me - actually, with the add-ons i still coudnt care less.

Deutschland Uber Alles is unofensive also but you wouldn't sing it at a synogogue would you?

Point is - in a public setting, representing the club, he sang a song that in the west of scotland can stir some powerful feelings - plus, he sanfg it with add ons which make the first part of this sentence redundant. The Add-ons themselves are sufficient grounds for dismissal

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Yes, it was sung at a private function - whcih members of the public attented. Making it in a public setting.

:pipegreen:

Your best EVER Bauba !!!!

[bauba30 1]

Yes, it was sung at a private function - whcih members of the public attented. Making it in a public setting.

:pipegreen:

Your best EVER Bauba !!!!

Funny? ok, but true though - unless the attendees were not members of the public - armadillos perhaps?

Would you say Rangers play to private club every second Saturday because they bought tickets? Or would they play to the public?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Bauba...

A private function is exactly as it sounds

- Access to the event must be limited to invitees and controlled throughout the event. The event is not to be open to the general public.

[bauba30 1]

Bauba...

A private function is exactly as it sounds

- Access to the event must be limited to invitees and controlled throughout the event. The event is not to be open to the general public.

And who get the invites? Aliens? or the public?

[Frankie 505]

Of course it was. Findlay was filmed at length clearly singing complete songs.

Can I ask why you only choose certain parts of my posts to respond to? Why the constant prevarication about Pearson and why do you completely ignore my admittedly better example regarding the 'remarkable human being' that is Neil Lennon?

Do you agree that Pearson cupped his hand and imbibed the song being sung (along with the majority of the crowd present - including other members of Celtic FC) with chants glorifying an outlawed terrorist organisation? Or do you think the video was fake as Celtic later claimed (after also claiming the players weren't even present initially)?

Moreover, how would you explain the glaring inconsistency in the way the media approached the Lennon/Findlay stories?