Did Rangers lose their way when Donald Findlay left the club

[nvager 498]

Here we go - Frankie - I will say this once - and I will ask you to please respect my opinion even if you do not agree with it - for the sake of this board and my mental health!

I do not believe there is a vendetta or campaign against Rangers Football Club in the media - I believe the Pearson incident was about the most haziest and unclear video I have ever seen and as such is a very poor example to be quoting when trying to prove this point.

OK, I said it

Last time we did this the thread got out of hand and some of us because extremely abusive. Let us not let that happen today

So you don't think he cupped his hand and shouted IRA then?

What about Lennon - you'll agree that's a much better example?

PS: I don't think there's a vendetta against our club either. I just think there are several obvious examples of slewed coverage. This is one of them I'm sure you'll agree.

The Lennon one I can agree with - the Hartson/Pearson one not at all - you cannot convict anyone for cupping their hand

Just like you cannot convict anyone for singing a non-sectarian song at a private function?

If they shout FTP after it - oh yeah you can

And then to follow it with TBB

What part of that do you not understand?

I understand everything you have said except for ONE thing.

Why it is stupid to sing the Sash at a private function when you're a representative of Rangers.

Perhaps because the Private function turned out anything BUT private thanks to one of our very own!!

Foolish to take the chance when in his position and if he was singing add ons like FTP then ten times as foolish. He resigned because he has RFC at heart, but he was indeed foolish.

Having said that you would really have thought that no RFC supporter would have done what one scumbag did. Then again another idiot did the same/similar thing at Osasuna and put the film on UTube.

Why would any RFC supporters do such a thing?

There is not a media vendetta, but there sure are some things going unreported re CFC related issues IMO.

I think the club lost something when DF left - yes.

Since UEFA became involved like it or not we MUST clean up OUR act and there is simply no getting away from it.

No need for any adult to shout/sing FTP anyway.

CFC - have issues too - many - but that is not our concern - sadly

[bauba30 1]

Bauba...

A private function is exactly as it sounds

- Access to the event must be limited to invitees and controlled throughout the event. The event is not to be open to the general public.

And who get the invites? Aliens? or the public?

Bauba...

The Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes are members of the public

The Royal Arch Chapter of the Freemasons are members of the public

But just try getting into one of their meetings as a member of the public.

A private function is not open to the general public.

But dont worry.....God loves a trier.

And my goodness you are trying

So by your logic then DF could say anything he liked because tickets were restricted somewhat?

Man, your logic is so flawed

So again, the people at the event were not members of the public?

Donald Findlay was fired/pushed/resigned because of his actions. So someone in power obviously agreed with me that his actions were at best ill-advised.

You keep harping on in this thread and others about proof. Well, there is the proof you seek - his actions set up a reaction from the club, and he was forthwith without a job. Did he appeal? Did he take it to tribunal? Did he fight it at all? No, because just as the club saw his actions for what they were, so, deep down, did he.

Scotlands foremost defence lawyer knew he didn't have a case

[bauba30 1]

Still, there doesn't appear to be any explanation as to why, according to Bauba, it is just plain stupid for a Rangers representative to sing The Sash at a private function

No explanation - you mean apart from the 3 or 4 times I posted one yesterday?

What you really mean is, no explanation that you like

Your explanation to why the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative was that it is stupid.

Care to elaborate or back up your claim? Or can't you?

I backed up my claim more than once mate - if you cant be assed to find it then that is your loss

What is stupid is your approach here - do you honestly expect me to say, "you know Leiper, you are right - I herefore change my stance on the subject"

Not gonna happen - DF was stupid, negligent, naive, showed ill-judgement whilst representing Rangers - when it was all put together he resigned/was pushed - and rightly so IMO

If you think otherwise, then Cool - but I wont criticise you for your opinion

I'm not criticising your opinion because it differs from mine...I am criticising it because you will not back it up. I appreciate you feel the way DF acted was stupid, negligent and naive after singing the Billy Boys and chanting add-ons.

However to sing The Sash, Rangers representative or not, that is not stupid, negligent or naive.

To be honest, after the discussion in this thread with you, I do not expect anything of the sort. Actually, I expect you will try and deflect the issue, continue with your personal jibes and again fail to answer my question.

You say I will use personal jibes?

Pot....Kettle......Mrs

Let me ask this of you then - if you wont go to the bother of searching the thread - why do you think it is unwise for a Rangers official - a board member at that, to sing the Sash at an event when he is representing the club

Bearing in mind what the song represents to a great deal of non Rangers fans in the country?

I have not posted any personal jibes at all.

I do not think it is unwise...I assume you meant why do I think it is not stupid to sing the song whilst representing Rangers?

Nice way of deflecting my question. I'll oblige anyway...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sash

The lyrics of the song are here. None of which are sectarian or would cause offense to anyone.

Also...

"For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!"

I imagine, to a lot of people, it represents nothing. Just another song belted out at a football game. You seem to be dodging one little factor though - it was sung at a private function.

I am not going to criticise Alex McLeish for singing the FOS at a Scotland vs England game when he represents Scotland.

Now, could you explain to me why you feel it is stupid for a Rangers representative to sing the Sash at a private function?

Yes, it was sung at a private function - whcih members of the public attented. Making it in a public setting.

I agree that the Sash without the add-ons is unoffensive to me - actually, with the add-ons i still coudnt care less.

Deutschland Uber Alles is unofensive also but you wouldn't sing it at a synogogue would you?

Point is - in a public setting, representing the club, he sang a song that in the west of scotland can stir some powerful feelings - plus, he sanfg it with add ons which make the first part of this sentence redundant. The Add-ons themselves are sufficient grounds for dismissal

Nobody is disputing that DF should of been punished for the add-ons and TBB, in fact I agree with you 100% he deserved to be punished by the club. My issue is one of your posts whereby you infer the Sash should not be sang by a Rangers representative whilst attending a private function.

Yes, it was sung at a private function - whcih members of the public attented. Making it in a public setting.

D'Artagnan has already answered that.

Deutschland Uber Alles is unofensive also but you wouldn't sing it at a synogogue would you?

Sorry, am I missing something? Since when did the Deutschland Uber Alles have any relevance whatsoever to a synagogue? Bad example, Bauba.

Point is - in a public setting, representing the club, he sang a song that in the west of scotland can stir some powerful feelings - plus, he sanfg it with add ons which make the first part of this sentence redundant. The Add-ons themselves are sufficient grounds for dismissal

.

In that case Bauba, prepare your petition to ban the orange walk throughout Glasgow.

I could say the exact same about the FOS...I bet you'd sing it at a Scotland game?

The point is, my football club is one that carries itself with dignity, has a reputation for doing so over the past 130 or so years.

Singing the sash, although in its own it is not sectarian, is just not smart for a representative of the club in a public setting. Just not smart.

Now, that in itself would not have got him fired but the add ons and the 2nd song made it a foregone conclusion as far as I am concerned. For me, for man as learned as DF, that was a severe lack of judgement - you do not agree?

As far as the Deutschland Uber Alles analogy, I don't think you understood my point. Neither that song or the sash on their own are offensive - but in a certain setting, they both could be upsetting to a certain portion of the populace.

[bauba30 1]

In that case Bauba, prepare your petition to ban the orange walk throughout Glasgow.

I could say the exact same about the FOS...I bet you'd sing it at a Scotland game?

Or God Save the Queen even?

Difference with FOS is that the English I know couldn't give a toss about it - the Scotland - England thing is FAR FAR less of an issue than the Catholic - Protestant one

[bauba30 1]

Well Frankie..

I could not agree with anyone who believes that the issue over DF is nothing more than "traditionalists clinging to one of their own."

Particularly when he chooses to opt out of any debate which seeks to address some of the real factors behind DF's forced resignation. A decision he has openly stated he has come to regret with hindsight...and those same factors which almost drove a good man to suicide because of a lack of parity...balance and fairness.

Furthermore....there is a constant drive by Bauba within this thread which suggests its unacceptable for any employee of Rangers to sing the Sash...and even an inference, in response to Minstral's post, that perhaps Mojo was fined for doing so behind closed doors.

I find it astonishing that 2 songs - The Sash & The Fields of Athenry - both now classed as folk songs - can be treated so differently - it seems its unacceptable for anyone employed by Rangers to sing the Sash....whilst the only concern over Hartson & Pearson singing Fields of Athenry is whether there was IRA add ons by them.

Quite simply I believe the focus has been completely lost here.... I believe Bauba is suggesting that quite simply the Sash is a no no for any employee of Rangers...yet it appears FOA is quite acceptable for others so long as there are no add ons.

I have yet to see anyone in this thread condemn Pearson & Hartson for singing FOA - and quite simply neither they should. It reflects their culture.

In the same way as the Sash reflects ours.

DA, I stick by the first comment - I really believe that if DF was nto such a well known Proddy and Unionist then his leaving would not have created near as much of a stir amongst the old guard as it did.

As far as my comments on The Sash - again, read my last post in response to Leiper - I think it is laid out there - if you don't like it or agree with it then that is cushty with me

BTW< I never said I think the FOA or The Sash are discriminatory songs, I have no problem singing either, or fans of either team singing either. I am just saying that for a club official to sing one or the other at a function is not the smartest thing in the world to do - and to add the add-ons that he did, was just plain foolish and in essence he dug his own grave.

Yeah, so Celtic werent as dignified in how they reacted to Mr Lennons transgression. I have never denied that either - but based on his actions alone, DF was in a very poor position indeed.

[bauba30 1]

Quite simply I believe the focus has been completely lost here.... I believe Bauba is suggesting that quite simply the Sash is a no no for any employee of Rangers...yet it appears FOA is quite acceptable for others so long as there are no add ons.

DA, would you kindly show where I have suggested that? Because not only have I not suggested that, but I don't actually believe that

[dummiesoot 16,009]

DA, I stick by the first comment - I really believe that if DF was nto such a well known Proddy and Unionist then his leaving would not have created near as much of a stir amongst the old guard as it did.

As far as my comments on The Sash - again, read my last post in response to Leiper - I think it is laid out there - if you don't like it or agree with it then that is cushty with me

BTW< I never said I think the FOA or The Sash are discriminatory songs, I have no problem singing either, or fans of either team singing either. I am just saying that for a club official to sing one or the other at a function is not the smartest thing in the world to do - and to add the add-ons that he did, was just plain foolish and in essence he dug his own grave.

Yeah, so Celtic werent as dignified in how they reacted to Mr Lennons transgression. I have never denied that either - but based on his actions alone, DF was in a very poor position indeed.

I don't believe that because DF is a well known unionist and a proddy that he was a loss to Rangers, I believe that given the crap we have had to put up with since he left (again I'll add Campbell Ogilvy to this), it is more than mere coincidence that this seems to run in conjunction with 5 or so years of pretty much unlimited bad press against Rangers and their fans, i.e. us (lets not forget down right lies about green pepperami bans, pitch cut to look like a sash, banning of eggs benedict, you could not make it up, well actually the press did. Yes there are issues that need sorting out, no-one on here is denying that, but Rangers need to stand up and be counted. Let me ask you this, why are Celtic fans representatives rarely on the radio, in the papers, etc? I'l give you my opinion, shall I, Lawell is brilliant at deflection, is never out of the newspapers and has been very successful in his "ach it's only a minority of the away support" tactic. If Rangers were more vociferous from the top, do you think David Edgar, etc would feel the need to be on the radio, in the papers probably on average once per month? We are losing a PR battle, for that is what it is, we are an easy target, Celtic are not.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

DA, I stick by the first comment - I really believe that if DF was nto such a well known Proddy and Unionist then his leaving would not have created near as much of a stir amongst the old guard as it did.

As far as my comments on The Sash - again, read my last post in response to Leiper - I think it is laid out there - if you don't like it or agree with it then that is cushty with me

BTW< I never said I think the FOA or The Sash are discriminatory songs, I have no problem singing either, or fans of either team singing either. I am just saying that for a club official to sing one or the other at a function is not the smartest thing in the world to do - and to add the add-ons that he did, was just plain foolish and in essence he dug his own grave.

Yeah, so Celtic werent as dignified in how they reacted to Mr Lennons transgression. I have never denied that either - but based on his actions alone, DF was in a very poor position indeed.

I don't believe that because DF is a well known unionist and a proddy that he was a loss to Rangers, I believe that given the crap we have had to put up with since he left (again I'll add Campbell Ogilvy to this), it is more than mere coincidence that this seems to run in conjunction with 5 or so years of pretty much unlimited bad press against Rangers and their fans, i.e. us (lets not forget down right lies about green pepperami bans, pitch cut to look like a sash, banning of eggs benedict, you could not make it up, well actually the press did. Yes there are issues that need sorting out, no-one on here is denying that, but Rangers need to stand up and be counted. Let me ask you this, why are Celtic fans representatives rarely on the radio, in the papers, etc? I'l give you my opinion, shall I, Lawell is brilliant at deflection, is never out of the newspapers and has been very successful in his "ach it's only a minority of the away support" tactic. If Rangers were more vociferous from the top, do you think David Edgar, etc would feel the need to be on the radio, in the papers probably on average once per month? We are losing a PR battle, for that is what it is, we are an easy target, Celtic are not.

Yes DO exactly - we lost 2 men who had Rangers at heart - not business..

[Ibroxblue 122]

Of course it was. Findlay was filmed at length clearly singing complete songs.

Can I ask why you only choose certain parts of my posts to respond to?

Because the rest of your post became redundant once that part was dealt with.

I personally thought Pearson was guilty but to claim it was as clear as the film of Findlay would be absurd. Celtic were able to mount a defence of Pearson - nobody could have claimed Findlay didn't do what he was accused of.

So, different situations. Therefore, somewhat different treatment in the media.

[Ibroxblue 122]

DA, I stick by the first comment - I really believe that if DF was nto such a well known Proddy and Unionist then his leaving would not have created near as much of a stir amongst the old guard as it did.

As far as my comments on The Sash - again, read my last post in response to Leiper - I think it is laid out there - if you don't like it or agree with it then that is cushty with me

BTW< I never said I think the FOA or The Sash are discriminatory songs, I have no problem singing either, or fans of either team singing either. I am just saying that for a club official to sing one or the other at a function is not the smartest thing in the world to do - and to add the add-ons that he did, was just plain foolish and in essence he dug his own grave.

Yeah, so Celtic werent as dignified in how they reacted to Mr Lennons transgression. I have never denied that either - but based on his actions alone, DF was in a very poor position indeed.

I don't believe that because DF is a well known unionist and a proddy that he was a loss to Rangers, I believe that given the crap we have had to put up with since he left (again I'll add Campbell Ogilvy to this), it is more than mere coincidence that this seems to run in conjunction with 5 or so years of pretty much unlimited bad press against Rangers and their fans.

But Campbell Ogilvie left less than two years ago.

[Ace 3,556]

Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Well Bauba - you have been busy -

I'll take your points one at a time if I may...

Regarding your point about DF being allowed to anything because tickets were restricted - no of course not - but what I am saying is that he knew his audience and its the kind of song which would be sung by the audience. Were any of his audience offended ? Nope - just one guy who saw the opportunity to make a quick buck. The only time it became a resignation issue it seems is when the newspaper got hold of it. Therefore as Frankie has suggested - its becoming akin to trial by media

You speak about him not lauching an appeal - why would anyone appeal if they themselves resigned...its hardly constructive dismissal is it ? But it was 5.25 am in the morning - so I'll allow you that one.

But that brings me onto your next point -

Donald Findlay was fired/pushed/resigned because of his actions. So someone in power obviously agreed with me that his actions were at best ill-advised.

Given the consequences of his actions thats a fair point. But this is where it gets confusing for me in this thread - for some seem to suggest he resigned voluntarily without question - whilst you seem to be suggesting there is an element of coercion...Im wondering which one it is.

DA, I stick by the first comment - I really believe that if DF was nto such a well known Proddy and Unionist then his leaving would not have created near as much of a stir amongst the old guard as it did.

I respectfully disagree Bauba - on a no. of points here in fact - I dont think it was anything to do with it was down to DF's personal beliefs - after all he is an atheist - I think the reaction from the Rangers fans came about because he was being castigated for singing songs (and remember this is pre-UEFA's action) which they themselves sung every week and which they did not view as problematic in any way. And this is what I was on about in my original thread which defended Findlay - how can you expect a support who sing songs week in week out without consequence - to understand why one of their club officials is being castigated for it ?

And so moving on...regarding The Sash..

DA, would you kindly show where I have suggested that? Because not only have I not suggested that, but I don't actually believe that

I'm honestly missing something here again because that seems to be at odds with...

Singing the sash, although in its own it is not sectarian, is just not smart for a representative of the club in a public setting. Just not smart.

Given your earlier stance regarding private functions - and the fact the audience will always be made up by members of the public - surely to sing it in any ensemble will .....always have an element of the public present ?

Furthermore when Minstral pointed out to you about Mojo singing it - you suggested that perhaps he was disciplined for it behind closed doors. Is that not suggestive that singing this is something which is wrong or should be frowned upon - if people are being disciplined for it ?

And this is where I have a major problem - not with you I may add - but how the 2 songs are treated. We can debate all night about whether Pearson shouted IRA as an add on or not - to me although it is significant - it is not the main point that requires addressed. If they are both folk songs - and its generally accepted they are - then why does it seem to be unacceptable to some elements of the press regarding The Sash.. for not just Rangers employees to sing it - but fans as well. ?

You have already agreed the song is not sectarian - and I know you dont want to discuss the media - but I would suggest that your assertion that the song is such a no-no in some quarters - is influenced by that media imbalance. Unless of course you would also assert that its unacceptable for anyone connected with Celtic to sing FOA. And even if you did assert the latter - I would disagree ! - its an expression of their identity and culture.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

Perhaps the Scots... who get into quite a lather about an unofficial verse in God Save the Queen...(about rebellious Scots to crush)....could answer that question for you Ace

[bauba30 1]

Well Bauba - you have been busy -

I'll take your points one at a time if I may...

Regarding your point about DF being allowed to anything because tickets were restricted - no of course not - but what I am saying is that he knew his audience and its the kind of song which would be sung by the audience. Were any of his audience offended ? Nope - just one guy who saw the opportunity to make a quick buck. The only time it became a resignation issue it seems is when the newspaper got hold of it. Therefore as Frankie has suggested - its becoming akin to trial by media

You speak about him not lauching an appeal - why would anyone appeal if they themselves resigned...its hardly constructive dismissal is it ? But it was 5.25 am in the morning - so I'll allow you that one.

But that brings me onto your next point -

Donald Findlay was fired/pushed/resigned because of his actions. So someone in power obviously agreed with me that his actions were at best ill-advised.

Given the consequences of his actions thats a fair point. But this is where it gets confusing for me in this thread - for some seem to suggest he resigned voluntarily without question - whilst you seem to be suggesting there is an element of coercion...Im wondering which one it is.

DA, I stick by the first comment - I really believe that if DF was nto such a well known Proddy and Unionist then his leaving would not have created near as much of a stir amongst the old guard as it did.

I respectfully disagree Bauba - on a no. of points here in fact - I dont think it was anything to do with it was down to DF's personal beliefs - after all he is an atheist - I think the reaction from the Rangers fans came about because he was being castigated for singing songs (and remember this is pre-UEFA's action) which they themselves sung every week and which they did not view as problematic in any way. And this is what I was on about in my original thread which defended Findlay - how can you expect a support who sing songs week in week out without consequence - to understand why one of their club officials is being castigated for it ?

And so moving on...regarding The Sash..

DA, would you kindly show where I have suggested that? Because not only have I not suggested that, but I don't actually believe that

I'm honestly missing something here again because that seems to be at odds with...

Singing the sash, although in its own it is not sectarian, is just not smart for a representative of the club in a public setting. Just not smart.

Given your earlier stance regarding private functions - and the fact the audience will always be made up by members of the public - surely to sing it in any ensemble will .....always have an element of the public present ?

Furthermore when Minstral pointed out to you about Mojo singing it - you suggested that perhaps he was disciplined for it behind closed doors. Is that not suggestive that singing this is something which is wrong or should be frowned upon - if people are being disciplined for it ?

And this is where I have a major problem - not with you I may add - but how the 2 songs are treated. We can debate all night about whether Pearson shouted IRA as an add on or not - to me although it is significant - it is not the main point that requires addressed. If they are both folk songs - and its generally accepted they are - then why does it seem to be unacceptable to some elements of the press regarding The Sash.. for not just Rangers employees to sing it - but fans as well. ?

You have already agreed the song is not sectarian - and I know you dont want to discuss the media - but I would suggest that your assertion that the song is such a no-no in some quarters - is influenced by that media imbalance. Unless of course you would also assert that its unacceptable for anyone connected with Celtic to sing FOA. And even if you did assert the latter - I would disagree ! - its an expression of their identity and culture.

Let me put a few things straight here

As far as Pearson goes, I have statred many times, I believe he actually may be guilty of what he is accused of in this thread, but proving it with the very poor quality video is nigh on impossible.

As far as me and the Sash - I will say it again, I dont think there is anything wrong with the song - if you or I sang it, certainly.

But for an official of the club to sing it in the setting he did, was just asking for trouble in this day, age and setting. You see where the difference is? DF was guilty of ill judgement IMO on that

Now, to add the add-one and then launch into TBB - well that was just plain stupid

And, no, that is not me being influenced by the media, or even the mhedia, it is an opinion based on many years exerience of going to Ibrox. supporters clubs in the States and my own personal beliefs. The next day my opinions will be affected by the media will be the first.

[bauba30 1]

Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

Perhaps the Scots... who get into quite a lather about an unofficial verse in God Save the Queen...(about rebellious Scots to crush)....could answer that question for you Ace

Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with FOS, just as there is nothing wrong with GSTQ - people (most people) just simply do not care about the Scotland - England thing anymore

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,658]

Although Donald Findlay is big and hairy arsed enough to look after himself the day and minute murray capitulated and allowed the mhedia forced resignation both Rangers and DF have become sittin ducks. Looks as if every function DF speaks at there is somebody in the crowd willin to have a pop at him ! Get him back on board now murray and show some spine ! :pipegreen:

Serial stalkers BD.

Type the name Tom Minogue into google and start from there.......

And when you see Forth Bridge tolls - go to Ruth Dudley Edwards Book Faithful Tribe and read what she says about "transmission belts"

Thanks D'A got the minogue bit but can't find the tramsmission bit ? But you're correct about serial stalkers ! Murray let the cleverest legal brain in the UK be hounded from our precious Club and we are now reaping the consequences and being treated by the mhedia accordingly ?

[Leiper 0]

Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

Perhaps the Scots... who get into quite a lather about an unofficial verse in God Save the Queen...(about rebellious Scots to crush)....could answer that question for you Ace

Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with FOS, just as there is nothing wrong with GSTQ - people (most people) just simply do not care about the Scotland - England thing anymore

Do you mean the "Scotland - England thing" as in rivalry and hatred for one another?

If so, I disagree...The majority of Scottish people I know, especially my generation, hate the English just because they're English. A lot of people still carry a chip on their shoulders.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Although Donald Findlay is big and hairy arsed enough to look after himself the day and minute murray capitulated and allowed the mhedia forced resignation both Rangers and DF have become sittin ducks. Looks as if every function DF speaks at there is somebody in the crowd willin to have a pop at him ! Get him back on board now murray and show some spine ! :pipegreen:

Serial stalkers BD.

Type the name Tom Minogue into google and start from there.......

And when you see Forth Bridge tolls - go to Ruth Dudley Edwards Book Faithful Tribe and read what she says about "transmission belts"

Thanks D'A got the minogue bit but can't find the tramsmission bit ? But you're correct about serial stalkers ! Murray let the cleverest legal brain in the UK be hounded from our precious Club and we are now reaping the consequences and being treated by the mhedia accordingly ?

Transmission Belts - It was a tactic first used by the Bolsheviks - they would attach themselves to all sort of groups - cultural - youths - lobbyist etc and gradually use these groups as a stepping stone for their own agenda - Sinn Fein/IRA - did the same in NI.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Let me put a few things straight here

As far as Pearson goes, I have statred many times, I believe he actually may be guilty of what he is accused of in this thread, but proving it with the very poor quality video is nigh on impossible.

As far as me and the Sash - I will say it again, I dont think there is anything wrong with the song - if you or I sang it, certainly.

But for an official of the club to sing it in the setting he did, was just asking for trouble in this day, age and setting. You see where the difference is? DF was guilty of ill judgement IMO on that

Now, to add the add-one and then launch into TBB - well that was just plain stupid

And, no, that is not me being influenced by the media, or even the mhedia, it is an opinion based on many years exerience of going to Ibrox. supporters clubs in the States and my own personal beliefs. The next day my opinions will be affected by the media will be the first.

Ok Bauba.. I think we are moving on a bit...we may not agree... but hey thats life.

I do think there is a bigger picture here....which has been touched on a couple of times in this thread and others....Im just not sure you are ready for it yet

[bauba30 1]

Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

Perhaps the Scots... who get into quite a lather about an unofficial verse in God Save the Queen...(about rebellious Scots to crush)....could answer that question for you Ace

Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with FOS, just as there is nothing wrong with GSTQ - people (most people) just simply do not care about the Scotland - England thing anymore

Do you mean the "Scotland - England thing" as in rivalry and hatred for one another?

If so, I disagree...The majority of Scottish people I know, especially my generation, hate the English just because they're English. A lot of people still carry a chip on their shoulders.

We must know different people - lol - oh wait a minute, of course we do

In my life I have never met one person who cares either way - national rivalries nowadays are more in the 'frinedly rivalry' sort of deal. Certainly when you compare it to us and Celtic, then it pales in comparison

[Leiper 0]

Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

Perhaps the Scots... who get into quite a lather about an unofficial verse in God Save the Queen...(about rebellious Scots to crush)....could answer that question for you Ace

Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with FOS, just as there is nothing wrong with GSTQ - people (most people) just simply do not care about the Scotland - England thing anymore

Do you mean the "Scotland - England thing" as in rivalry and hatred for one another?

If so, I disagree...The majority of Scottish people I know, especially my generation, hate the English just because they're English. A lot of people still carry a chip on their shoulders.

We must know different people - lol - oh wait a minute, of course we do

In my life I have never met one person who cares either way - national rivalries nowadays are more in the 'frinedly rivalry' sort of deal. Certainly when you compare it to us and Celtic, then it pales in comparison

There will always be friendly rivalry between Scotland and England but there is so much more than that, certainly where I am from. I know and have spoken to people who have served in the armed forces, alongside English, Welsh and Irish men, but they still detest England.

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Still ... no-one has answered the question .... Can someone please explain what part FOS is offensive (or potentially so) to the English??

If this song is constantly refered to when defending the singing of certain other songs, i would love to know what is so offensive about it.

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O flower of Scotland

When will we see your like again

That fought and died for

Your wee bit hill and glen

And stood against him

Proud Edward's army

And sent him homeward

Tae think again

The hills are bare now

And autumn leaves lie thick and still

O'er land that is lost now

Which those so dearly held

And stood against him

Proud Edward's army

And sent him homeward

Tae think again

Those days are passed now

And in the past they must remain

But we can still rise now

And be the nation again

That stood against him

Proud Edward's army

And sent him homeward

Tae think again

I see nothing in those lyrics that is even slightly offensive ... to anyone.

[bauba30 1]

O flower of Scotland

When will we see your like again

That fought and died for

Your wee bit hill and glen

And stood against him

Proud Edward's army

And sent him homeward

Tae think again

The hills are bare now

And autumn leaves lie thick and still

O'er land that is lost now

Which those so dearly held

And stood against him

Proud Edward's army

And sent him homeward

Tae think again

Those days are passed now

And in the past they must remain

But we can still rise now

And be the nation again

That stood against him

Proud Edward's army

And sent him homeward

Tae think again

I see nothing in those lyrics that is even slightly offensive ... to anyone.

Certainly Princess Anne has no problems belting it out from time to time

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I would like to add that this topic has went wayyyyyyyyy left field ..... About Donald Findlay to About Songs we sing (kind oif linked ..but not really)