Effect of referendum on us

[rossDas 1,071]

3 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

The proportion of Unionists and Brexit supporters is probably unusually high in our support in comparison to elsewhere in the country, in turn, we risk subconsciously thinking that our support is representative to the rest of the country. The majority of our support faces a real and present danger of an "Independent" Scotland if we don't "fight" to win the argument/debate. Look at social media to see the generation of "new" voters and soon-to-be voters and you'll see some tremendously warped thinking lapped up by the majority. We have to get active in social media, up our game, make valid arguments, be respectful (as to give them no moral victory option and to show them up for the vile lot many of them are when they get abusive and we keep our cool/manners), highlight things the media and politicians don't, present a vision of the UK that people want, guide people on how to make the UK work, highlight the positives of the UK, point out the risks of Independence, tackle the SNP on their short-sighted policies that would be catestrophic if implemented, highlight the lies of Independence supporters/SNP/"new media" etc. etc. If we sit on our arses preaching to the converted (I'm as guilty of that as anyone) and deriding the opposition we could be in for a very tough time going forward, just look at how things currently are. 

An excellent summary - social media will be a crucial battleground in deciding the clash that we are likely to face, and populist movements have been pro-active and extremely efficient at seizing that ground. 

[HG5 11,499]

26 minutes ago, Barasa said:

:-) C'mon! A bit of positivity here please! Short term investment for long term gain?

Hmmm...

We seem to have a bit of potential at one end and a lot of experience at the other.

Quite a lot of bodies in already.

Be nice to see a few in the middle range, age-wise.

Folk will say 'the window isn't even open.'

Fair enough, but there can't be many more squad places needing filled, if the 'lean, mean' squad ethos is to be observed (esp. As Europe is not now a consideration).

Be nice to think we can bring in another 2 or 3 that might fit what you're suggesting.

[Briton 394]

19 hours ago, Copland bear said:

Slagging people for being British and proud to be British? Is that not why we sing orule Britania? Yet you hate cunts like me that sing it and feel proud to sing it, you are totally against people who agree with singing it? Yet I agree about not taking Syrian refugees in their tens of thousands,

Yet we get branded racist for our views , so what are your remarks?  

What are you now ? Scottish or British as the SNP have told us we no longer can be both. 

Hopefully you feel the latter, but stop playing the victim card you really sound like one of that lot. 

I'm playing the victim card! That's rich. I've slagged nobody for being British and haven't said I hate you for singing a song.  Grow up, dry your eyes, stop your whining and stop fucking lying about what I have said. 

[Briton 394]

9 hours ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

The proportion of Unionists and Brexit supporters is probably unusually high in our support in comparison to elsewhere in the country, in turn, we risk subconsciously thinking that our support is representative of the rest of the country. The majority of our support faces a real and present danger of an "Independent" Scotland if we don't "fight" to win the argument/debate. Look at social media to see the generation of "new" voters and soon-to-be voters and you'll see some tremendously warped thinking lapped up by the majority. We have to get active in social media, up our game, make valid arguments, be respectful (as to give them no moral victory option and to show them up for the vile lot many of them are when they get abusive and we keep our cool/manners), highlight things the media and politicians don't, present a vision of the UK that people want, guide people on how to make the UK work, highlight the positives of the UK, point out the risks of Independence, tackle the SNP on their short-sighted policies that would be catastrophic if implemented, highlight the lies of Independence supporters/SNP/"new media" etc. etc. If we sit on our arses preaching to the converted (I'm as guilty of that as anyone) and deriding the opposition we could be in for a very tough time going forward, just look at how things currently are. 

It's laughable for Brexiters to think that they can talk the informed young into remaining in one union after having rejected the one they wanted to remain with.  Cloud cuckoo land.

People have got to stop this idea of the support having to follow a particular political path anyway (particularly the scummy right wing one that that so many do already).  That way lies a future where Rangers are a Scottish version of St Pauli.

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

1 minute ago, Briton said:

It's laughable for Brexiters to think that they can talk the informed young into remaining in one union after having rejected the one they wanted to remain with.  Cloud cuckoo land.

People have got to stop this idea of the support having to follow a particular political path anyway (particularly the scummy right wing one that that so many do already).  That way lies a future where Rangers are a Scottish version of St Pauli.

2

The UK buys far more imports from Europe than it exports to all of it, the EU's importance in terms of trade has declined over the years.

Scotland, on the other hand, exports 4 times as much to the UK as it does to the EU; considering the collapse of oil and the fact Scotland is borrowing on a favourable rate without the set-up costs of an "Independent" Scotland, it would be much, much worse for Scotland to leave the UK than leave Europe.

I don't demand that any Rangers fan believe a certain thing or follow the politics of a football team etc. etc. I make my own mind up and I allow others to do that for themselves (as I should). If the "informed" young can't be made to see what is fairly obvious with the sensible debate then it's a bad day.

[Briton 394]

6 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

The UK buys far more imports from Europe than it exports to all of it, the EU's importance in terms of trade has declined over the years.

Scotland, on the other hand, exports 4 times as much to the UK as it does to the EU; considering the collapse of oil and the fact Scotland is borrowing on a favourable rate without the set-up costs of an "Independent" Scotland, it would be much, much worse for Scotland to leave the UK than leave Europe.

I don't demand that any Rangers fan believe a certain thing or follow the politics of a football team etc. etc. I make my own mind up and I allow others to do that for themselves (as I should). If the "informed" young can't be made to see what is fairly obvious with the sensible debate then it's a bad day.

I'm not interested in rehashing the debate with Brexiters. Fact is the Scots, and the young and informed people of the UK, are being dragged out of a union they supported by the old ignorant and fearful little Britainers.  The idea that you can talk the Scots around on 'social media' to continue to support the union you prefer is just laughable.  The only hope you have is the collapse of the EU and economic turmoil. That's the situation the ignorant and fearful Brexit people, supporters of the likes of that buffoon Boris Johnson, the religious loon Michael 'Scumbag' Gove and the xenophobic NHS hating Nigel 'man-of-the-people' Farrage (in reality a multi-millionaire broker),  have brought us to.  

 

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

2 minutes ago, Briton said:

I'm not interested in rehashing the debate with Brexiters. Fact is the Scots, and the young and informed people of the UK, are being dragged out of a union they supported by the old ignorant and fearful little Britainers.  The idea that you can talk the Scots around on 'social media' to continue to support the union you prefer is just laughable.  The only hope you have is the collapse of the EU and economic turmoil. That's the situation the ignorant and fearful Brexit people, supporters of the likes of that buffoon Boris Johnson, the religious loon Michael 'Scumbag' Gove and the xenophobic NHS hating Nigel 'man-of-the-people' Farrage (in reality a multi-millionaire broker),  have brought us to.  

 

 

Scotland's say in the UK is 1 in 11.

Scotland's say in the EU would be at best 1 in 58.

Explain to me how that is "Independence" and will ensure that Scotland never gets outvoted again?

[Cairo1 63]

I think it will cause ructions. The over-riding objectives for Corbyn and his accolites is break up of the U.K., especially a united Ireland. Why else the lacklustre, inept and unconvincing remain campaign? 

It's the breakup of the UK that is the overriding objective and all other objectives that have been achieved and decisions that are made are biased and made around that overall desired design. 

[Briton 394]

19 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

Scotland's say in the UK is 1 in 11.

Scotland's say in the EU would be at best 1 in 58.

Explain to me how that is "Independence" and will ensure that Scotland never gets outvoted again?

A typically simplistic statement from a Brexiter not to mention  it being a strawman.   Fact is Scotland voted strongly in favour of the EU, much more emphatically than they did to remain in the UK, and it's likely that they will now reject the latter given the chance.  This was predicted but of course, in the words of one of your leaders, Michael Gove, 'people in this country have had enough of experts'.  That just about sums up all you need to know about the Little Britainers.

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

Just now, Briton said:

A typically simplistic statement from a Brexiter not to mention  it being a strawman.   Fact is Scotland voted strongly in favour of the EU, much more emphatically than they did to remain in the UK, and it's likely that they will now reject the latter given the chance.  This was predicted but of course, in the words of one of your leaders, Michael Gove, 'people in this country have had enough of experts'.  That just about sums up all you need to know about the Little Britainers.

 

So you have no answer to my question.

[Briton 394]

12 minutes ago, Cairo1 said:

I think it will cause ructions. The over-riding objectives for Corbyn and his accolites is break up of the U.K., especially a united Ireland. Why else the lacklustre, inept and unconvincing remain campaign? 

It's the breakup of the UK that is the overriding objective and all other objectives that have been achieved and decisions that are made are biased and made around that overall desired design. 

Corbyn doesn't want to see the break up of the UK. A united Ireland, maybe (and that inevitability has also received a boost from Brexit that will likely bring it forward).  

[Briton 394]

Just now, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

So you have no answer to my question.

There is no answer to such a stupidly simplistic strawman question. Nobody has claimed Scotland will not be outvoted again.  Is this the kind of crap you expect to use on social media to convince the young informed Scots to vote to remain in the UK? Jeez.

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

17 minutes ago, Briton said:

There is no answer to such a stupidly simplistic strawman question. Nobody has claimed Scotland will not be outvoted again.  Is this the kind of crap you expect to use on social media to convince the young informed Scots to vote to remain in the UK? Jeez.

 

 

 

What's stupid about the questions i asked you?

Nicola Sturgeon says that Scotland being voted out of the EU by England and Wales is 'democratically unacceptable' and she is using that as a mandate to push for Scottish "Independence" and re-entry to Europe.

The problems with that is Scotland rejected Independence voting to be in a Union with the UK where they could be outvoted, joining the European Union would be handing over Independence gained from exiting the UK, being in the EU makes it highly probable that Scotland will be outvoted on issues within the EU and Scotland has a bigger say in the UK than it would in Europe.

Now do you have any argument at all to refute what I've just said or will you once again tell me how the young/Scots/"informed" are making the right choices, that people that voted for Brexit are "ignorant fearful little Britainers", that my points/questions are "stupidly simplistic" and that everything I say is a "strawman" and "crap"? 

[Cairo1 63]

Briton, you do know that a United Ireland would mean a break up of the U.K. The official name of the UK is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Then of course the Scottish republicans would use that as the lever to start a similar campaign that has taken place in NI over the last 20+ years.

Corbyn's over arching viewpoint drives this direction, why would he do anything that jeopardises that long term vision, hence the lacklustre Remain campaign. The English labour vote was overwhelmingly leave and if the Labour leadership had campaigned vigorously then they could have swung it to the Remain arguement. This was obvious and why there is revolt in Labour parliamentary ranks.

My point is that Corbyns underlying visions and desires contributed to his abject and abysmal performance as a Remain advocate.

[Cairo1 63]

Briton, I do agree that Brexit does offer more opportunity of Corbyns vision, hence, my point.

[Blumhoilann 6,712]

1 hour ago, Briton said:

I'm not interested in rehashing the debate with Brexiters. Fact is the Scots, and the young and informed people of the UK, are being dragged out of a union they supported by the old ignorant and fearful little Britainers.  The idea that you can talk the Scots around on 'social media' to continue to support the union you prefer is just laughable.  The only hope you have is the collapse of the EU and economic turmoil. That's the situation the ignorant and fearful Brexit people, supporters of the likes of that buffoon Boris Johnson, the religious loon Michael 'Scumbag' Gove and the xenophobic NHS hating Nigel 'man-of-the-people' Farrage (in reality a multi-millionaire broker),  have brought us to.  

 

You have confirmed one 'fact'....you ARE a wanker.

[Briton 394]

17 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

What's stupid about the questions i asked you?

It's stupid (and a strawman) because your question asked me to explain something I didn't claim. 

17 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

Nicola Sturgeon says that Scotland being voted out of the EU by England and Wales is 'democratically unacceptable' and she is using that as a mandate to push for Scottish "Independence" and re-entry to Europe.

Of course she is. She'd be a crap politician if she didn't, as was predicted, take advantage of this situation that perfectly suits her aims. She's not a crap politician of course, she's probably the best in Britain.

17 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

The problems with that is Scotland rejected Independence voting to be in a Union with the UK where they could be outvoted, joining the European Union would be handing over Independence gained from exiting the UK, being in the EU makes it highly probable that Scotland will be outvoted on issues within the EU and Scotland has a bigger say in the UK than it would in Europe.

You think people who are pro Europe, including the great majority of Scots, don't understand that they wont get their own way all the time? Of course we do. If you think this simplistic argument will win you the argument on social media then you are seriously mistaken.

17 minutes ago, THE_Ibrox_Preacher said:

Now do you have any argument at all to refute what I've just said or will you once again tell me how the young/Scots/"informed" are making the right choices, that people that voted for Brexit are "ignorant fearful little Britainers", that my points/questions are "stupidly simplistic" and that everything I say is a "strawman" and "crap"? 

I didn't say everything you have said is a strawman argument.  Just one specific question you were using to make a point.  Stop lying.

 

[Briton 394]

12 minutes ago, Cairo1 said:

Briton, I do agree that Brexit does offer more opportunity of Corbyns vision, hence, my point.

Why? An independent England is likely to be much harder for the left to win power.  He'd be much better off if Scotland stayed in the union and the Labour party eventually recovered.  Even if it didn't; the SNP would be likely coalition partners for him.  One good thing with Labour though; they seem to finally coming around to the conclusion the the first past the post system needs to go if we don't want a permanent Tory government.

[Blumhoilann 6,712]

Sturgeon can talk all the shit she wants but FACTS get in the way of her pish.

Scotland cannot join/remain in the EU.

Catalans tried a unilateral independence vote in Spain,European Courts kicked that poodle out the door as they are part Spain and not an independent country.

Scotland IS part of the UK and cannot have a unilateral Indyref.

This sets aside the financial strife a break from the rest of the UK would place on Scotland.

Also we should remember that Ms Sturgeon would insist on an open door policy on immigration for Scotland.Can anyone imagine the effect of mass immigration on the jobs market in Scotland and the deliberate downward forcing of the standard of living with lowering of wages?

[KeyserSoze 14,784]

4 minutes ago, Blumhoilann said:

 

Also we should remember that Ms Sturgeon would insist on an open door policy on immigration for Scotland.Can anyone imagine the effect of mass immigration on the jobs market in Scotland and the deliberate downward forcing of the standard of living with lowering of wages?

Just a point. 

You do know we have had open borders and the free flow of people for 40 years and we have not suffered mass immigration? It's only recently that this has become an issue cos we are bombing the fuck out of countries and there residents are scattering all over the place in fear 

Millions of families throughout Europe don't suddenly wake up and go "let's move to Scotland " just the same way you don't wake up and go "ah fuck it I'm off to Italy/France/Germany etc.  

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

2 minutes ago, Briton said:

It's stupid (and a strawman) because your question asked me to explain something I didn't claim. 

Of course she is. She'd be a crap politician if she didn't, as was predicted, take advantage of this situation that perfectly suits her aims. She's not a crap politician of course, she's probably the best in Britain.

You think people who are pro Europe, including the great majority of Scots, don't understand that they wont get their own way all the time? Of course we do. If you think this simplistic argument will win you the argument on social media then you are seriously mistaken.

I didn't say everything you have said is a strawman argument.  Just one specific question you were using to make a point.  Stop lying.

 

 

So you don't have any argument against what I've said beyond that the young, "informed" and Scots don't care about facts, they care about personal preference and when democratic votes don't go their way they'll carry on regardless.

I've put up several points/facts now and you don't have an answer to refute any of them, you may think they are simplistic and won't work etc. etc. but it doesn't make them any less true. Why you say people won't listen to facts/reason and hold the belief that they are "informed" I don't know.

 

 

[Cairo1 63]

3 minutes ago, Briton said:

Why? An independent England is likely to be much harder for the left to win power.  He'd be much better off if Scotland stayed in the union and the Labour party eventually recovered.  Even if it didn't; the SNP would be likely coalition partners for him.  One good thing with Labour though; they seem to finally coming around to the conclusion the the first past the post system needs to go if we don't want a permanent Tory government.

Because his over riding vision is a United Ireland in particular and to a lesser extent an independent Scotland. Those situations would obviously change the political landscape in England and they start over again to work the socialist agenda in the new politic that would be England. So it's an eating the elephant approach. They may even push for a proportional representation approach in England, who knows.

Your writing as if Corbyn does not know all of this and that he actual ignores these consequences when he makes decisions, he is fully aware of these consequences and is prepared for that shorter term hit for the longer term goal. I think that is his overriding concern he has a republican, socialist vision that aims to break the UK wth at is the antithesis of his views and I believe that shapes and influences his decisions and actions more than his love  or desire for the UK as a nation and what it stands for.

[Briton 394]

46 minutes ago, Cairo1 said:

Briton, you do know that a United Ireland would mean a break up of the U.K. The official name of the UK is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Then of course the Scottish republicans would use that as the lever to start a similar campaign that has taken place in NI over the last 20+ years.

Corbyn's over arching viewpoint drives this direction, why would he do anything that jeopardises that long term vision, hence the lacklustre Remain campaign. The English labour vote was overwhelmingly leave and if the Labour leadership had campaigned vigorously then they could have swung it to the Remain arguement. This was obvious and why there is revolt in Labour parliamentary ranks.

My point is that Corbyns underlying visions and desires contributed to his abject and abysmal performance as a Remain advocate.

The Scottish nationalists will likely have left before Northern Ireland follows.  BTW...if both Scotland and Norn leave the country the remainder could still be called the UK

The overall Labour vote was 63% in favour of remain, that's compared to the 64% of SNP voters.  Corbyn's constituency was 75% in favour of EU membership; one of his critics in the PLP, Margret Hodge, managed to convince a paltry 36% of her London constituency to vote remain.  There has been a revolt in Labour parliamentary ranks since Corbyn won power with a huge popular mandate from the membership and he was always going to get the blame regardless of facts and figures. Not that I think he is a EU enthusiast but it's untenable to suggest he contributed to the defeat given those figures. 

[Inigo 32,762]

25 minutes ago, Blumhoilann said:

 

Also we should remember that Ms Sturgeon would insist on an open door policy on immigration for Scotland.Can anyone imagine the effect of mass immigration on the jobs market in Scotland and the deliberate downward forcing of the standard of living with lowering of wages?

I'm sure I read a thing recently in the FT about a study that found no link between increased immigration and jobs or wage deflation.

[Briton 394]

5 minutes ago, Inigo said:

I'm sure I read a thing recently in the FT about a study that found no link between increased immigration and jobs or wage deflation.

...and the Brexiters are already backing away from the idea that immigration will be reduced.