Playing out from the back

[theclothmonster 1,732]

19 minutes ago, Teddybear123 said:

This is something that I really liked about our team last season. However, today, and most of the games this season, we just end up having all of our possession in our own half. When we are failing to play it out effectively, why do we not put it up to the striker from the goal kick?- especially on a day like today when garner has the beating of the centre half in the air.

By no means am I saying we should abandon our possession based style, I just think that we should get it into better areas in a direct fashion before we start playing if carving out the attack from the back isn't working. 

What we need is to drop the fucking plodders from the team. The confident and mobile squad of last season is gone and has been replaced with a geriatric ward. Barton and Kranjcar just aren't mobile enough to fit into our style of play. How many times today did we see our players isolated in their own half with noone to pass to. Compare that to last season when you had Holt and Zelalem always available to take a pass and setup triangles even when pressed by the opposition. At this point we seem to have abandoned the Warburton style of play in favour of accommodating certain individuals and the team has suffered. I know a lot on here don't rate Holt but for me he enables the rest of the team by always being available and pulling the opposition out of position with his movement. Can't believe that I actually wish Zelalem was back in the squad.

[Deanzmeanzheinz 4,312]

Said in numerous threads all week that they would pounce on passes out of defence. But don't forget set pieces. Another goal from a corner. And that third goal killed us. We actually started the second half well. If wee baz had cursed that in then who knows what might have happened? 

In the final analysis if you keep conceding goals then it makes it so difficult. 

[SasaPapacLoyal 348]

38 minutes ago, TheLoudenTavernier said:

Its significantly harder for the opposition to score a goal against us when we have possession ??

Unless it's Kiernan on the ball 

[Teddybear123 215]

3 minutes ago, NeoGeo7 said:

Had been thinking the same thing and effectively what we have is this sort of situation:

When teams don't press us high up the park we have time on the ball and Barton would drop deep, collect it and distribute wide. However when teams do press our centre backs we end up in a situation where the centre backs have to play the ball forward and thats when we lose possession and then are totally vulnerable to a counter attack (prime example would be their second goal today).

I think when we have this sort of situation we need the full backs to stay back. This gives the keeper 4 outballs so it's not always entirely predictable where the ball is going to go. If it goes to a fullback and they have space they can run with the ball, or they can play inside to centre back or the defensive midfielder or indeed if there is space to the central midfielders.

The only other way to handle it is to go over their high line but the team we have had put together in the last 14 months is all set up to play on the deck and pass through teams. For this to work the players movement off the ball has to be drastically improved hence the reason Barton and Kranjcar in the same midfield don't work.

I also believe the other issue is the 3 forward players since the main striker is isolated. I've never been a huge fan of lone strikers and always think its quite pessimistic and if you are going to go with that then you need quality of service which this year has been lacking big time. McKay and Wallace have been very poor on the left and we lost Waggy to injury for the right and also MOH doesn't seem to be the flavour of the month. Only Tav has actually posed any real threat out wide and with a 4-3-3 we need to have width and players that can hurt the opposition from out wide. If the players aren't cutting it and the manager won't change formation then players need to be dropped. When Garner scored you saw him and Miller switch causing confusion in their defence allowing Miller to peel away and get space and Garner to get the position to score. I feel thats where two strikers works provided they are different from each other but also compliment each other e.g. McCoist and Hateley. Would Waghorn and Garner work? Who knows and we probably never will find out if the manager is insistent on 4-3-3

fuck me maybe you should take over MW  in all seriousness, what you said definitely makes sense, perhaps we will see slight tweaks like this, as we did last season with our fullbacks.

[theclothmonster 1,732]

27 minutes ago, frazer89 said:

Too much possession without making it count and its not the first time this year either.  

At this point i'd give anything to get back to the possession game of last season, our passing game so far this season has been dreadful.

[LaudrupsPatrickBoots 13,540]

5 minutes ago, SasaPapacLoyal said:

Unless it's Kiernan on the ball 

Too late.

[piperpete 3,186]

1 hour ago, Teddybear123 said:

This is something that I really liked about our team last season. However, today, and most of the games this season, we just end up having all of our possession in our own half. When we are failing to play it out effectively, why do we not put it up to the striker from the goal kick?- especially on a day like today when garner has the beating of the centre half in the air.

By no means am I saying we should abandon our possession based style, I just think that we should get it into better areas in a direct fashion before we start playing if carving out the attack from the back isn't working. 

Hibs showed how to foil the way we play early on by leaving 3 men up the park and pressing our defence and not letting the fullbacks push on.

[Ivybank 4,643]

Just now, piperpete said:

Hibs showed how to foil the way we play early on by leaving 3 men up the park and pressing our defence and not letting the fullbacks push on.

Hibs did it the tims did it, we are not Barcelona,we can't play from the back,against better teams they just

push up and wait till we give it away,

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

1 hour ago, Teddybear123 said:

This is something that I really liked about our team last season. However, today, and most of the games this season, we just end up having all of our possession in our own half. When we are failing to play it out effectively, why do we not put it up to the striker from the goal kick?- especially on a day like today when garner has the beating of the centre half in the air.

By no means am I saying we should abandon our possession based style, I just think that we should get it into better areas in a direct fashion before we start playing if carving out the attack from the back isn't working. 

Gardner hardly won a ball in the air all day - and every time we went long they mopped it up easily. 

[frazer89 93]

49 minutes ago, theclothmonster said:

At this point i'd give anything to get back to the possession game of last season, our passing game so far this season has been dreadful.

So would most of us but thats up to warburton to fix before our next league game, And if he doesn't then I doubt he ever will. Surely a defeat like that has hurt him personally and he will try to change things.

[NeoGeo7 10,669]

1 hour ago, frazer89 said:

So would most of us but thats up to warburton to fix before our next league game, And if he doesn't then I doubt he ever will. Surely a defeat like that has hurt him personally and he will try to change things.

The only,way I can see him fixing it is playing players that fit with that style. Young and energetic midfielders e.g. Windass, Forrester, Rossiter.

If Kranjcar starts alongside Barton it will prove that Warburton doesn't learn and will let players think that shite performances are acceptable because of who they are.

[Teddybear123 215]

2 hours ago, theclothmonster said:

At this point i'd give anything to get back to the possession game of last season, our passing game so far this season has been dreadful.

Yes everyone would, but our possession game of last season was not passing the ball around in our own half for 90 minutes. Last season we were so effective because we would constantly have large spells of possession in the other teams final third, not just against the diddy teams either!

[KingKirk 25,864]

3 hours ago, Teddybear123 said:

This is something that I really liked about our team last season. However, today, and most of the games this season, we just end up having all of our possession in our own half. When we are failing to play it out effectively, why do we not put it up to the striker from the goal kick?- especially on a day like today when garner has the beating of the centre half in the air.

By no means am I saying we should abandon our possession based style, I just think that we should get it into better areas in a direct fashion before we start playing if carving out the attack from the back isn't working. 

I really enjoy watching our style and it was working today until Kiernan got involved and it went south. He can't pass the ball for a footballer that's criminal Imo.

[KingKirk 25,864]

2 hours ago, NeoGeo7 said:

Had been thinking the same thing and effectively what we have is this sort of situation:

When teams don't press us high up the park we have time on the ball and Barton would drop deep, collect it and distribute wide. However when teams do press our centre backs we end up in a situation where the centre backs have to play the ball forward and thats when we lose possession and then are totally vulnerable to a counter attack (prime example would be their second goal today).

I think when we have this sort of situation we need the full backs to stay back. This gives the keeper 4 outballs so it's not always entirely predictable where the ball is going to go. If it goes to a fullback and they have space they can run with the ball, or they can play inside to centre back or the defensive midfielder or indeed if there is space to the central midfielders.

The only other way to handle it is to go over their high line but the team we have had put together in the last 14 months is all set up to play on the deck and pass through teams. For this to work the players movement off the ball has to be drastically improved hence the reason Barton and Kranjcar in the same midfield don't work.

I also believe the other issue is the 3 forward players since the main striker is isolated. I've never been a huge fan of lone strikers and always think its quite pessimistic and if you are going to go with that then you need quality of service which this year has been lacking big time. McKay and Wallace have been very poor on the left and we lost Waggy to injury for the right and also MOH doesn't seem to be the flavour of the month. Only Tav has actually posed any real threat out wide and with a 4-3-3 we need to have width and players that can hurt the opposition from out wide. If the players aren't cutting it and the manager won't change formation then players need to be dropped. When Garner scored you saw him and Miller switch causing confusion in their defence allowing Miller to peel away and get space and Garner to get the position to score. I feel thats where two strikers works provided they are different from each other but also compliment each other e.g. McCoist and Hateley. Would Waghorn and Garner work? Who knows and we probably never will find out if the manager is insistent on 4-3-3

That exactly how I set up on FM hahahaha have the DM in beside the CB'S on goal kicks etc to created the overload in midfield. Impossible to try and press that but I ain't lost to the scum in 3yr hahahaha

[Teddybear123 215]

Thought I would give this thread a bump as I genuinely believe Warburton's new found willingness to tell the team to hit it long some of the time is a big part of why we have won the last two games.

 

 

[delamonty 992]

18 minutes ago, Teddybear123 said:

Thought I would give this thread a bump as I genuinely believe Warburton's new found willingness to tell the team to hit it long some of the time is a big part of why we have won the last two games.

 

 

Yes... He has indeed found  Plan 'B'.  but of course, Warbs would probably say this is us doing Plan 'A' better.  

No matter.. Plan "A"+ or Plan "B"... in any sport you have to vary your approach. You simply cannot be predictable.. you will get beat.  That is the only certainty imho.  As posted on another thread, Garner is the guy here that is making Plan "A"+ work. Don't know how many times today he either retained possession or a great flick on header. 

So Teddybear123.. absolutely right.  The new found willingness -- that we have all been crying out for -- has made me, and I would guess just about every Bear excited again. How good does it feel right now knowing our team can not only play proper football, but can be as direct as we need to be when we need it.

Of course.. need to keep this up. I was nervous about this game since I didn;t want to see a regression.. but the entire team delivered -- in style.

[Teddybear123 215]

 

1 minute ago, delamonty said:

Yes... He has indeed found  Plan 'B'.  but of course, Warbs would probably say this is us doing Plan 'A' better.  

No matter.. Plan "A"+ or Plan "B"... in any sport you have to vary your approach. You simply cannot be predictable.. you will get beat.  That is the only certainty imho.  As posted on another thread, Garner is the guy here that is making Plan "A"+ work. Don't know how many times today he either retained possession or a great flick on header. 

So Teddybear123.. absolutely right.  The new found willingness -- that we have all been crying out for -- has made me I would guess just about every Bear excited again. How good does it feel right now knowing our team can not only play proper football, but can be as direct as we need to be when we need it.

Of course.. need to keep this up. I was nervous about this game since I didn;t want to see a regression.. but the entire team delivered -- in style.

Absolutely. Think that this highlights that we have a manager who is developing and learning. Some of his press conference answers and managerial decisions completely contradict what he would have said/done when he first came to the club, and that is simply because he is learning from his experiences.

[To Be A Ranger 4,032]

On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Ibroxholm said:

Part of our game last year was to hound the opposition out of possession in their defensive third.  We seem to have lost that from our game so far this season.

Because it's bloody hard work. Teams in the top league are fitter and faster than in the championship. Watch the English Premiership and European leagues and you will see that teams are happy to allow the opposition possession 20 or 30 yards from their goal. It's energy sapping to chase every ball. That's why Garner is such an asset. He will chase the defensive line all game long and not let them settle.

[William McBeath 2,154]

On ‎10‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 4:39 PM, Teddybear123 said:

I agree with the principle- the semi final last year we were excellent at playing out when put under pressure, but today most of their attacks came from our defence misplacing passes when under extreme pressure and risking giving away sloppy goals.

Agree mate. Even Barca go long when needs must or an opportunity presents itself. The best teams are the ones that can do everything well. With tactics making football like a game of chess then good teams actually look to use the press against the opponent. Its a way of bypassing many players who would end up doing defensive roles.

We need to improve this aspect of our game because it would be the answer to most of our problems and would make our opponents give up and allow us complete possession at the back or else give us another way of picking them off. Even when they go man for man like Aberdeen if our players make good runs we should be able to find them.

Everything takes time but this will make us a much more complete team when we learn it well. After that we can just keep improving our squad knowing that we will continue to improve.

That's why Walter sat us deep in Europe 08 because good sides try to set you up all over the park. You are always close to being in trouble against such sides.

I think with Warburton knowing how to install a good passing game in players that with a bit of cash we can reach such levels. Outwith the Barca level of course but nevertheless a good team that we can all take a lot of pride in. Going long should be part of our tactics at times  

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

On 10/09/2016 at 4:27 PM, Teddybear123 said:

This is something that I really liked about our team last season. However, today, and most of the games this season, we just end up having all of our possession in our own half. When we are failing to play it out effectively, why do we not put it up to the striker from the goal kick?- especially on a day like today when garner has the beating of the centre half in the air.

By no means am I saying we should abandon our possession based style, I just think that we should get it into better areas in a direct fashion before we start playing if carving out the attack from the back isn't working. 

This type of post just shows how fickle our fan base is - when we go long folk moan about why do we not play it out. 

MW is bringing in his philosophy of possession football - and that is the way to go and anyway the long ball is at best a 50-50 for retaining possession and is often just a way of ensuring the ball comes straight back at you . 

[Number6 252]

I think people get too hung up on the 'do Plan A better' quote. To me it seems like a bit of psychology from Warburton to let the players know they are in control when on the pitch and not to look to the sidelines for the manager to make a change but to give their all with the set of instructions given pre-match. If you let someone know if something isn't working then there will be change it could see a drop in effort with the original plan. 

[cushynumber 25,178]

so Plan B is" if wee cant pass it out, lump it long"?  

Now THAT is tactical genius.

[Captain Hilts 12,819]

3 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

so Plan B is" if wee cant pass it out, lump it long"?  

Now THAT is tactical genius.

You could simplify any tactic like that though.

[cushynumber 25,178]

30 minutes ago, BF2 said:

You could simplify any tactic like that though.

the point being its hardly rocket science. If we are struggling then we go long to Garner and then get up and support him. Its fair enough at a tactic and it is undoubtedly simple.

[Captain Hilts 12,819]

7 minutes ago, cushynumber said:

the point being its hardly rocket science. If we are struggling then we go long to Garner and then get up and support him. Its fair enough at a tactic and it is undoubtedly simple.

I don't disagree with that.  We have mixed it up really well in the last 2 games and haven't been too predictable which is exactly what we needed.  We have evidently been more direct but we have also played some nice stuff on the deck too.  Some of McKay's passing and movement against Hearts was jizz material