The Rangers Fan of 2008 is a strange breed and one I often fail to recognise

[*Manticore* 1,893]

'Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelopes play....'

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

'Home, home on the range, where the deer and the antelopes play....'

I dont think I have EVER heard that version at any time at Ibrox !!

[MayboleLoyal_atb 4,080]

Take it I didn't get my name change.

[Guest Andypendek]

But how can a football club retain an identity with a religion which is - and I mean no offence - withering away? It defies logic that people are more willing to express their religious identity through a Saturday than a Sunday.

Its a good question Andy and I certainly dont have all the answers.....what I would say though as I alluded to earlier - there is quite a difference in religion and our Protestant idenity....and I will try to expand on that further.

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself. Our songs (which are one of the clearest indications of a willingness to keep that identity alive ) are not hymns or psalms but more a celebration of the history of a people/culture.

The Sash is a celebration of Protestant brotherhood and kinship, Derrys Walls a song reminding us of Protestant heroics/defiance/steadfastness. Our songs which offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

I think that heroism, brotherhood and steadfastness will always be things men aspire to regardless of religion's "popularity".

As Manti says these songs if anything are increasing in popularity amongst our support. Whilst religion may be in decline, the expression of cultural identity most certainly is not and perhaps the popoularity of these songs is in keeping with people's desire to express a cultural...or as IB put it so well in another thread..."tribal identity".

While many people criticise us for our song repetoire...and some even on here suggest we should drop them and "move on" I find it refreshing that we as a support celebrate older values such as bravery...loyalty...honour...steadfastness and kinship, particularly in a world today where these values are so often replaced by cowardice, lies, spin and distinct lack of dignity and honour.

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

[WVB 2,560]

I do go to all home games and the folks around me are pretty mixed in their views and I, IMHO, think that is reflected on this forum. His words - no matter how many forums he has been on - fans on forums are nothing like fans who attend games - and that (IMHO) is wrong - mixed views here, mixed views at Ibrox.

Have you tried singing FoS yet?

Actually, i did that one day....i was in a bad mood about something or other & joined in with FoS when we were playing Hibs or Aberdeen. Nothing was said. Its not a song i sing often.

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,086]

Just gut feel and faith - sometimes thats all there is - it may not come to pass but I tingle in anticipation. Mind you my mate says that as an optomist I can only have my expectations let down, and as a pessamist he can only have his expectations exceeded !

We believe, we do not have faith. You spell like a tim too.

He reeks of torbetts dong !

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Just gut feel and faith - sometimes thats all there is - it may not come to pass but I tingle in anticipation. Mind you my mate says that as an optomist I can only have my expectations let down, and as a pessamist he can only have his expectations exceeded !

We believe, we do not have faith. You spell like a tim too.

He reeks of torbetts dong !

.. ah back with the insults and no arguments worth listening to - at least WVB's insults (usually) have some sense of humour about them!

[minstral 5,375]

John Ure Primrose in his capacity as chairman stamped a very Protestant and Unionist identity on our club and even appeared on the same platform as Edward Carson. So the stamping of a Protestant/Unionist identity has not come from the fans alone...

You say that as if it is indisputable fact. What evidence do you have?

Its recorded in a number of history books and spoken about by a number of historical commentators.

Ive not personally met anyone who was there when Primrose shared the stand with Carson....but given the number of commentators who allude to the fact...I tend to believe it.

Why ? Do you have evidence to the contrary ?

Eh? I don't need evidence, your are making the assertion. Besides that, I'm not talking about who Primrose shared anything with. I'm talking about him 'stamping a Protestant/Unionist identity' on Rangers FC.

Well you are the one demanding evidence. Perhaps you should make yourself familiar with the Primrose years at the club.

So you don't know of any evidence of Primrose 'stamping a Protestant/Unionist identity' on Rangers FC'? I thought not. I have read quite a bit about Rangers history, although I admit much of that study was a few years ago and I don't pretend to be as knowledgeable as some, but I can never remember coming across anything concrete regarding Primrose's influence on the situation. I assumed from your statement of fact that you had. The same goes for another poster's statement that UP started a 'purge' of Catholic players.

A related question to those who have knowledge of the history. I remember reading that one of the big newspapers of the day put out a clarion call for a Scottish club to arise and challenge the Irish upstarts. Very ironic considering the attacks from the present day media. Does anyone know any details of this incident? I said 'of the day' but I'm not sure when that happened. Seems to me that is a very significant piece of evidence regarding this subject.

i also read about primrose which said that primrose was a outspoken anti catholic. who publicly pledged rangers to the masonic cause and publicly voiced anti catholic sentiments.

he also sat on the platform at edward carsons home rule rally in glasgow.

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

But how can a football club retain an identity with a religion which is - and I mean no offence - withering away? It defies logic that people are more willing to express their religious identity through a Saturday than a Sunday.

Its a good question Andy and I certainly dont have all the answers.....what I would say though as I alluded to earlier - there is quite a difference in religion and our Protestant idenity....and I will try to expand on that further.

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself. Our songs (which are one of the clearest indications of a willingness to keep that identity alive ) are not hymns or psalms but more a celebration of the history of a people/culture.

The Sash is a celebration of Protestant brotherhood and kinship, Derrys Walls a song reminding us of Protestant heroics/defiance/steadfastness. Our songs which offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

I think that heroism, brotherhood and steadfastness will always be things men aspire to regardless of religion's "popularity".

As Manti says these songs if anything are increasing in popularity amongst our support. Whilst religion may be in decline, the expression of cultural identity most certainly is not and perhaps the popoularity of these songs is in keeping with people's desire to express a cultural...or as IB put it so well in another thread..."tribal identity".

While many people criticise us for our song repetoire...and some even on here suggest we should drop them and "move on" I find it refreshing that we as a support celebrate older values such as bravery...loyalty...honour...steadfastness and kinship, particularly in a world today where these values are so often replaced by cowardice, lies, spin and distinct lack of dignity and honour.

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

I agree with AndyP - great response - Do we really want to be 'Plastic Protestants' where we take that stance just because 'they' want to be Catholic ? Support Ulster because 'they' follow the South, are Unionist just because our colours match the UK flag. Me I want to support the football team!

[Polo 1,455]

Just gut feel and faith - sometimes thats all there is - it may not come to pass but I tingle in anticipation. Mind you my mate says that as an optomist I can only have my expectations let down, and as a pessamist he can only have his expectations exceeded !

We believe, we do not have faith. You spell like a tim too.

He reeks of torbetts dong !

Outrageous!

[minstral 5,375]

But how can a football club retain an identity with a religion which is - and I mean no offence - withering away? It defies logic that people are more willing to express their religious identity through a Saturday than a Sunday.

Its a good question Andy and I certainly dont have all the answers.....what I would say though as I alluded to earlier - there is quite a difference in religion and our Protestant idenity....and I will try to expand on that further.

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself. Our songs (which are one of the clearest indications of a willingness to keep that identity alive ) are not hymns or psalms but more a celebration of the history of a people/culture.

The Sash is a celebration of Protestant brotherhood and kinship, Derrys Walls a song reminding us of Protestant heroics/defiance/steadfastness. Our songs which offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

I think that heroism, brotherhood and steadfastness will always be things men aspire to regardless of religion's "popularity".

As Manti says these songs if anything are increasing in popularity amongst our support. Whilst religion may be in decline, the expression of cultural identity most certainly is not and perhaps the popoularity of these songs is in keeping with people's desire to express a cultural...or as IB put it so well in another thread..."tribal identity".

While many people criticise us for our song repetoire...and some even on here suggest we should drop them and "move on" I find it refreshing that we as a support celebrate older values such as bravery...loyalty...honour...steadfastness and kinship, particularly in a world today where these values are so often replaced by cowardice, lies, spin and distinct lack of dignity and honour.

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

I agree with AndyP - great response - Do we really want to be 'Plastic Protestants' where we take that stance just because 'they' want to be Catholic ? Support Ulster because 'they' follow the South, are Unionist just because our colours match the UK flag. Me I want to support the football team!

well you just support the team the way you want to. and leave us to support the team that generations before us did.

[Polo 1,455]

He said he USED to join in with bigoted stuff, clearly referring to the past. Therefore NPOR is perfectly vaild in the context of his arguement.

I'm sure I'm missing something which I will be corrected on but I'm staggered to see people baldly saying NPOR is not bigoted. Maybe there's 2 versions.

:coop: ???????????????

[Unionloyal 0]

But how can a football club retain an identity with a religion which is - and I mean no offence - withering away? It defies logic that people are more willing to express their religious identity through a Saturday than a Sunday.

Its a good question Andy and I certainly dont have all the answers.....what I would say though as I alluded to earlier - there is quite a difference in religion and our Protestant idenity....and I will try to expand on that further.

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself. Our songs (which are one of the clearest indications of a willingness to keep that identity alive ) are not hymns or psalms but more a celebration of the history of a people/culture.

The Sash is a celebration of Protestant brotherhood and kinship, Derrys Walls a song reminding us of Protestant heroics/defiance/steadfastness. Our songs which offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

I think that heroism, brotherhood and steadfastness will always be things men aspire to regardless of religion's "popularity".

As Manti says these songs if anything are increasing in popularity amongst our support. Whilst religion may be in decline, the expression of cultural identity most certainly is not and perhaps the popoularity of these songs is in keeping with people's desire to express a cultural...or as IB put it so well in another thread..."tribal identity".

While many people criticise us for our song repetoire...and some even on here suggest we should drop them and "move on" I find it refreshing that we as a support celebrate older values such as bravery...loyalty...honour...steadfastness and kinship, particularly in a world today where these values are so often replaced by cowardice, lies, spin and distinct lack of dignity and honour.

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

I agree with AndyP - great response - Do we really want to be 'Plastic Protestants' where we take that stance just because 'they' want to be Catholic ? Support Ulster because 'they' follow the South, are Unionist just because our colours match the UK flag. Me I want to support the football team!

well you just support the team the way you want to. and leave us to support the team that generations before us did.

He probably doesnt even support the team mate, have you ever came across a fan like him I havent

[Guest Andypendek]

There's no need for that.

BP9, I wouldn't go so far as to call it 'Plastic Prods' because I think these are genuinely held beliefs, esp. in the area of links with Ulster - a lot of people do have family connections etc. My objection is that connection being foisted on others; the argument that one group of fan can have a link and celebrate it, while others don't need to bother is naive.

[SuperRangers 2]

If No pope a rome is bigoted then surely Ibrox wouldve been shut down and the club wouldve been deducted 10,000 points when it was sang at Motherwell the other week

[BoltonLoyal 2]

But how can a football club retain an identity with a religion which is - and I mean no offence - withering away? It defies logic that people are more willing to express their religious identity through a Saturday than a Sunday.

Its a good question Andy and I certainly dont have all the answers.....what I would say though as I alluded to earlier - there is quite a difference in religion and our Protestant idenity....and I will try to expand on that further.

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself. Our songs (which are one of the clearest indications of a willingness to keep that identity alive ) are not hymns or psalms but more a celebration of the history of a people/culture.

The Sash is a celebration of Protestant brotherhood and kinship, Derrys Walls a song reminding us of Protestant heroics/defiance/steadfastness. Our songs which offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

I think that heroism, brotherhood and steadfastness will always be things men aspire to regardless of religion's "popularity".

As Manti says these songs if anything are increasing in popularity amongst our support. Whilst religion may be in decline, the expression of cultural identity most certainly is not and perhaps the popoularity of these songs is in keeping with people's desire to express a cultural...or as IB put it so well in another thread..."tribal identity".

While many people criticise us for our song repetoire...and some even on here suggest we should drop them and "move on" I find it refreshing that we as a support celebrate older values such as bravery...loyalty...honour...steadfastness and kinship, particularly in a world today where these values are so often replaced by cowardice, lies, spin and distinct lack of dignity and honour.

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

I agree with AndyP - great response - Do we really want to be 'Plastic Protestants' where we take that stance just because 'they' want to be Catholic ? Support Ulster because 'they' follow the South, are Unionist just because our colours match the UK flag. Me I want to support the football team!

I agree with you on the Catholic/Protestant comparison, but I think it's an affinity and kinship with our brothers in Ulster more than supporting them.

But your Eire/UK comparison is baffling. 'They' are from the UK and purport a desire to be all things Oirish. I on the other hand stand up for my nation because it is my nation not because the colours happen to coincide!

The problem is BP9, the scum are obsessed with attacking the whole of the UK not just Rangers supporters.

They are the enemy, if they eventually got Rangers destroyed, their campaign would then turn to the next thing, which, in their eyes represents the UK.

They are nothing but an offshoot of the PIRA, they employ the same tactics and use the same propaganda to achieve their goals.

The more people who take this non-committal stance regarding the politics and religion of RFC, the closer we come to extinction.

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,086]

Just gut feel and faith - sometimes thats all there is - it may not come to pass but I tingle in anticipation. Mind you my mate says that as an optomist I can only have my expectations let down, and as a pessamist he can only have his expectations exceeded !

We believe, we do not have faith. You spell like a tim too.

He reeks of torbetts dong !

.. ah back with the insults and no arguments worth listening to - at least WVB's insults (usually) have some sense of humour about them!

I have made my policy never to argue with an idiot they always beat you by experience !

[BCLoyal9 53]

As much as I lament any handwringers following the Club , their numbers are nowhere near as vast as some would have you believe. All of my Rangers-supporting pals of my generation are staunch Bluenoses who aren't ashamed of our Unionist / CoS identity.

Infact , I'd go as far to say that implying "the Rangers fan of 2008" (my generation and under) is mostly handwringers , is condescending rubbish.

[Tontospal 1,116]

As much as I lament any handwringers following the Club , their numbers are nowhere near as vast as some would have you believe. All of my Rangers-supporting pals of my generation are staunch Bluenoses who aren't ashamed of our Unionist / CoS identity.

Infact , I'd go as far to say that implying "the Rangers fan of 2008" (my generation and under) is mostly handwringers , is condescending rubbish.

I apologise if I have offended you or any other poster with the title of this thread. That was certainly not my attention, nor was it to be condescending.

What I meant by the title and original post was that there is no longer such a thing as a 'stereotypical' Rangers fan in 2008 whereas in 1998, 1988 and before I would argue that 99% of the support were united in their support for the team, whilst being fiercely proud of our traditions and culture.

Nowadays that is not always the case and we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

I have been heartened to read some of the posts and I think although there has been less fans expressing a desire to move away from our protestant identity etc it has nevertheless proven my point as only a few years ago those views would never be expressed amongst our fans.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

So you don't know of any evidence of Primrose 'stamping a Protestant/Unionist identity' on Rangers FC'? I thought not. I have read quite a bit about Rangers history, although I admit much of that study was a few years ago and I don't pretend to be as knowledgeable as some, but I can never remember coming across anything concrete regarding Primrose's influence on the situation. I assumed from your statement of fact that you had. The same goes for another poster's statement that UP started a 'purge' of Catholic players.

A related question to those who have knowledge of the history. I remember reading that one of the big newspapers of the day put out a clarion call for a Scottish club to arise and challenge the Irish upstarts. Very ironic considering the attacks from the present day media. Does anyone know any details of this incident? I said 'of the day' but I'm not sure when that happened. Seems to me that is a very significant piece of evidence regarding this subject.

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Firstly Briton.......dont start make statements due to your own lack of knowledge. What I infact urged you to do is do your own research rather than call into question the veracity of those who have. Anyone who is knowledgable about the Primrose years would be nothing short of a fool to suggest anything other than he stamped a Protestant identity on our club.

With regard to your second point - there were numerous newspaper articles on the subject you raise...its not just one. Bill Murray in his book the "Old Firm and Sectarianism" deals with this in some depth...it was often popular for cartoonists to depict the Scottish teams playing Celtic as sportsmen whilst depicting them as brutes.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

A very thought provoking reply, D'Artagnan. I've been stroking my chin in contemplation for some moments now, as we are getting philosphical! I bagsy Socrates, unless he followed the usual sexual practices of the day which don't appeal at all. Firstly, this sentence is intriguing:

My opinion is that we as a support celebrate an identity/culture rather than practice religion itself.

And you list the positives of that identity. Absolutely spot on, and I doubt if anyone on this board would disagree with you. If it were possible to celebrate these values without bringing church into it I'd be happy to march under that banner. This one, though:

offer support for the people of Ulster is a demonstration of support for our kin (by virtue of both race and religious identity) across the water.

is a nightmare! Because to offer support for the people of Ulster I'm afraid I am forced to take a position I'm uncomfortable being in. Coming under terrorist attack for 25 years merits absolute sympathy and solidarity, and as I've said privately to you, during that period I would never have dreamt of saying things I can say now. I can't take the Protestant values of Ulstermen as my own as they have been/still are for all I know taken to a pitch I find disconcerting and rigid: too many people had to die for one side or the other to see their intransigence was counter-productive. Brutally put I don't want to be associated with Ulster at all. It's (in my eyes, others will feel differently) a negative association which hinders the club. I'm happy to see the tims crawl into their Irish ghetto, despite their many, many plans to launch a pan-Celtica multi-globo club I notice they're still mainly followed by cretinous shoplifters from Dalmarnock. They can have it...I don't see any value to a link up with Ulster.

I'm sure this will cement my popularity on the board.

I wish that your final 2 paragraphs accurately represented what our support feel when they are singing but I can't see it...I don't see how chanting Derry's Walls is anything more than a great way to make a noise, unnerve the opposition and piss off those who hate us. It's a bleak view of society and I don't tar everyone and everywhere with the same brush, but we know what this country is like - it's full of tubes and your values of bravery and honour have all but disappeared, frankly. T'other day, I'm buying my snacks in Lidl and some apprentices were there too, effin and blinding away despite there being females present...if my boys had been there they would have been told to shut their faces, but I bet they would have had no idea why I would be annoyed.

(I do have a problem with this; I hate swearing in front of kids but I usually lose my temper and tell people to shut the fuck up, which kind of defeats the purpose).

It's a scabby society, where the lowest cultural values are accepted and anyone trying to raise themselves from the gutter is considered a poof, a handwringer, overly sheltered or whatever...if you want to lead a drive to instill decency back into people I'm with you 100% but it takes more than wrapping a blue scarf round your neck and singing The Sash.

I told you it was a thought provoking answer, look what you've made me do!

Andy you have misunderstood my answer. (You were obviously salivating too much at the thought of those Socrates sexual practices <_< )

Our demonstration of support for the people of Ulster is not based on the fact that they have suffered 25 years of terrorism. It is about shared cultural identity - lets not forget we have defined race called the Ulster Scots to emphasise this.

The Scots/Ulster links pre-date the recent troubles...in fact they pre-date our football club. Bare in mind my original post referred to cultural expression. Furthermore as Belfast is the 2nd biggest Rangers supporting city in the world its hardly surprising that such expression manifests itself within our support.

We will have to agree to disagree on the values of being connected to Ulster. At a time when we have the "prawn sandwich" brigade of football supporters...I see it as a huge positive that we have a people renowned for their loyalty who week in week out make the marathon trip to come and support our club.

However of far more concern to me...is that a reknown socialist like yourself....shops at a place you have to pay for carrier bags. :harhar:

[BCLoyal9 53]

As much as I lament any handwringers following the Club , their numbers are nowhere near as vast as some would have you believe. All of my Rangers-supporting pals of my generation are staunch Bluenoses who aren't ashamed of our Unionist / CoS identity.

Infact , I'd go as far to say that implying "the Rangers fan of 2008" (my generation and under) is mostly handwringers , is condescending rubbish.

I apologise if I have offended you or any other poster with the title of this thread. That was certainly not my attention, nor was it to be condescending.

What I meant by the title and original post was that there is no longer such a thing as a 'stereotypical' Rangers fan in 2008 whereas in 1998, 1988 and before I would argue that 99% of the support were united in their support for the team, whilst being fiercely proud of our traditions and culture.

Nowadays that is not always the case and we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

I have been heartened to read some of the posts and I think although there has been less fans expressing a desire to move away from our protestant identity etc it has nevertheless proven my point as only a few years ago those views would never be expressed amongst our fans.

I see where you are coming from - the vital things is that (as you say) most of the nay-sayers and quislings abound online. For sure , they are a rare breed to encounter in the flesh and I have yet to come across anyone so ashamed of traditional values , in the pubs of Paisley Road West or in the stands of the Stadium itself.

Certainly dissenters number more than even around 10 years ago. I just believe that their presence - and influence - is inflated by their proportionally massive online presence and love of radio phone-ins.

[Tontospal 1,116]

As much as I lament any handwringers following the Club , their numbers are nowhere near as vast as some would have you believe. All of my Rangers-supporting pals of my generation are staunch Bluenoses who aren't ashamed of our Unionist / CoS identity.

Infact , I'd go as far to say that implying "the Rangers fan of 2008" (my generation and under) is mostly handwringers , is condescending rubbish.

I apologise if I have offended you or any other poster with the title of this thread. That was certainly not my attention, nor was it to be condescending.

What I meant by the title and original post was that there is no longer such a thing as a 'stereotypical' Rangers fan in 2008 whereas in 1998, 1988 and before I would argue that 99% of the support were united in their support for the team, whilst being fiercely proud of our traditions and culture.

Nowadays that is not always the case and we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

I have been heartened to read some of the posts and I think although there has been less fans expressing a desire to move away from our protestant identity etc it has nevertheless proven my point as only a few years ago those views would never be expressed amongst our fans.

I see where you are coming from - the vital things is that (as you say) most of the nay-sayers and quislings abound online. For sure , they are a rare breed to encounter in the flesh and I have yet to come across anyone so ashamed of traditional values , in the pubs of Paisley Road West or in the stands of the Stadium itself.

Certainly dissenters number more than even around 10 years ago. I just believe that their presence - and influence - is inflated by their proportionally massive online presence and love of radio phone-ins.

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

My biggest worry is the extent that the mhedia and politicians are managing to influence the 'new' supporters who feel they are on some kind of a mission to save the future of Rangers FC from the bigots who have blighted it in the past.

Just who these people think they are is beyond me.

It's like younger women going to the bingo and telling the older women they've been doing it wrong all this time and that the rules of the game must change to suit the newcomers as they want to use letters instead of numbers.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

My biggest worry is the extent that the mhedia and politicians are managing to influence the 'new' supporters who feel they are on some kind of a mission to save the future of Rangers FC from the bigots who have blighted it in the past.

And if I could add to that Tonto....... that our heritage is something we should be ashamed of.

[BCLoyal9 53]

As much as I lament any handwringers following the Club , their numbers are nowhere near as vast as some would have you believe. All of my Rangers-supporting pals of my generation are staunch Bluenoses who aren't ashamed of our Unionist / CoS identity.

Infact , I'd go as far to say that implying "the Rangers fan of 2008" (my generation and under) is mostly handwringers , is condescending rubbish.

I apologise if I have offended you or any other poster with the title of this thread. That was certainly not my attention, nor was it to be condescending.

What I meant by the title and original post was that there is no longer such a thing as a 'stereotypical' Rangers fan in 2008 whereas in 1998, 1988 and before I would argue that 99% of the support were united in their support for the team, whilst being fiercely proud of our traditions and culture.

Nowadays that is not always the case and we have a growing number of fans, probably more noticeable on messageboards and phone-ins, who try and deny or challenge what we are and accept the mhedia view of all things Rangers being open to interpretation of being bigoted or sectarian rather than being seen as pro-protestant and a positive celebration.

I have been heartened to read some of the posts and I think although there has been less fans expressing a desire to move away from our protestant identity etc it has nevertheless proven my point as only a few years ago those views would never be expressed amongst our fans.

I see where you are coming from - the vital things is that (as you say) most of the nay-sayers and quislings abound online. For sure , they are a rare breed to encounter in the flesh and I have yet to come across anyone so ashamed of traditional values , in the pubs of Paisley Road West or in the stands of the Stadium itself.

Certainly dissenters number more than even around 10 years ago. I just believe that their presence - and influence - is inflated by their proportionally massive online presence and love of radio phone-ins.

That is the hard core support that have stuck with and will stick by the club in good times and bad.

My biggest worry is the extent that the mhedia and politicians are managing to influence the 'new' supporters who feel they are on some kind of a mission to save the future of Rangers FC from the bigots who have blighted it in the past.

Just who these people think they are is beyond me.

It's like younger women going to the bingo and telling the older women they've been doing it wrong all this time and that the rules of the game must change to suit the newcomers as they want to use letters instead of numbers.

The politicians are onto a loser. When you take the quislings out of the equation , by my estimate you would still have 90+% of Bears who will not be cowed , and will adhere to those values which they hold dear , among them libertarianism and freedom of speech.

And a certain bloody-mindedness also! It is hard wired into the Scottish psyche that we don't take orders from any old tosspot. The flabby faced ones up in Holyrood would do well to remember that.