Wilson Loaned to Dumbarton

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, K.A.I said:

The fact they’ve got promise but don’t do much in the game after they come back their loans that people think have done them the world of good 

the proof is literally in the pudding - people can pretend these loan moves are great if they really want to but they’re deluding themselves 

as I said earlier I don’t have a raft of great alternatives but let’s not pretend it’s great moves for them either 

So where does that show that the loans make the players regress? Because some players don’t fulfill their potential? That just mean that every methoakes players regress. There will be boys in the 20s group today who won’t meet their potential despite travelling across Europe and playing this games programme, others haven’t after getting first-team football here (John Fleck anyone?) 

Its quite incredible that the players and their coaches often think these are good moves for them when in reality they are all just ‘deluding themselves’ 

[K.A.I 36,183]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

So where does that show that the loans make the players regress? Because some players don’t fulfill their potential? That just mean that every methoakes players regress. There will be boys in the 20s group today who won’t meet their potential despite travelling across Europe and playing this games programme, others haven’t after getting first-team football here (John Fleck anyone?) 

Its quite incredible that the players and their coaches often think these are good moves for them when in reality they are all just ‘deluding themselves’ 

I said there might be a case that they’ve regressed than it being the good move everyone says it is .. hence the “might be” meaning there could be a chance - I never said that was 100% the case but it’s something to consider for the reasons I’ve gave 

to not give it some thought is pretty narrow minded considering I’ve already acknowledged the first team football / competitive aspect of the loans - I just don’t think it’s all that’s made out to be at the Scottish lower leagues level 

you are taking things out of context at the end there too (as you usually do) the coaches aren’t deluded for sending them out on loan, I get why they do, I just don’t think the gain is there the way people think - if any coach comes out after the player quits the game or resigns himself to a career at some lower league team and still wants to say it was a good move for them then I’d say they are pretty deluded. It’s their job to be positive and have confidence in any decision they make.

you really don’t have to spend every minute of your time disagreeing with people on here with an alternative opinion to yourself Dude, it’s literally all you do.

[Smile 26,606]

Jumped ship once he heard about the strip deal with Admiral.

[sassaaaa 11,406]

3 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

I said there might be a case that they’ve regressed than it being the good move everyone says it is .. hence the “might be” meaning there could be a chance - I never said that was 100% the case but it’s something to consider for the reasons I’ve gave 

to not give it some thought is pretty narrow minded considering I’ve already acknowledged the first team football / competitive aspect of the loans - I just don’t think it’s all that’s made out to be at the Scottish lower leagues level 

you are taking things out of context at the end there too (as you usually do) the coaches aren’t deluded for sending them out on loan, I get why they do, I just don’t think the gain is there the way people think - if any coach comes out after the player quits the game or resigns himself to a career at some lower league team and still wants to say it was a good move for them then I’d say they are pretty deluded. It’s their job to be positive and have confidence in any decision they make.

you really don’t have to spend every minute of your time disagreeing with people on here with an alternative opinion to yourself Dude, it’s literally all you do.

Dunno how you or anybody else wastes time on this prick , he's on here to wind folk up and loves the sound of his own voice.

Should have been bumped off here many times for some of the shit he's wrote , but as i said before some on here are protected.

[K.A.I 36,183]

Just now, sassaaaa said:

Dunno how you or anybody else wastes time on this prick , he's on here to wind folk up and loves the sound of his own voice.

Should have been bumped off here many times for some of the shit he's wrote , but as i said before some on here are protected.

He can be alright when he’s not in one of his jumped up moods where no-one else can have a different opinion to him 

[sassaaaa 11,406]

Just now, K.A.I said:

He can be alright when he’s not in one of his jumped up moods where no-one else can have a different opinion to him 

That will be every time he appears on here then...........

[The Dude 20,026]

2 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

I said there might be a case that they’ve regressed than it being the good move everyone says it is .. hence the “might be” meaning there could be a chance - I never said that was 100% the case but it’s something to consider for the reasons I’ve gave 

to not give it some thought is pretty narrow minded considering I’ve already acknowledged the first team football / competitive aspect of the loans - I just don’t think it’s all that’s made out to be at the Scottish lower leagues level 

you are taking things out of context at the end there too (as you usually do) the coaches aren’t deluded for sending them out on loan, I get why they do, I just don’t think the gain is there the way people think - if any coach comes out after the player quits the game or resigns himself to a career at some lower league team and still wants to say it was a good move for them then I’d say they are pretty deluded. It’s their job to be positive and have confidence in any decision they make.

you really don’t have to spend every minute of your time disagreeing with people on here with an alternative opinion to yourself Dude, it’s literally all you do.

2

So it's just punters who are delusional by thinking - like the players and coaches - it's a good move?

Given we aren't as likely to get players out on cross-border loans for a number of reasons lower leagues Scottish football is all we have available in the vast majority of cases - particularly with younger players.

Why wouldn't I spend my time disagreeing with people with an alternative opinion? Isn't that the entire point of discussion boards - discussing alternative opinions people have? IF we all just posted what we agreed with the board would be one post and then a load of replies simply saying "i agree" or "aye, you're right". With stuff I agree with I tend to give it a like or not bother replying because it's something I agree with and me posting that I'm in agreement adds nothing to any discussion/debate.

[Negri's lovechild 14,049]

19 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

The fact they’ve got promise but don’t do much in the game after they come back their loans that people think have done them the world of good 

the proof is literally in the pudding - people can pretend these loan moves are great if they really want to but they’re deluding themselves 

as I said earlier I don’t have a raft of great alternatives but let’s not pretend it’s great moves for them either 

I get your point regarding loan moves, and it can be looked at in two ways - the lad is hungry to play football rather than sit on the development team or bench and pick up a wage, and can learn how the game is played at the lower levels and toughen up, ready to come back and challenge for a place.

Or, the player will find that's his level, won't make any progression or have the desire to want better. 

I guess a lot of it depends on how much talent and desire the player really has to make it in the game. I think being at Raith for a season or two really helped Bates in particular with the physical side of the game (though don't think he played much). We have been pretty poor at identifying talent over the years as a club . I guess the loan system can be a bit of a lottery. Bit like (the) Dalcio warming the bench with us. That place would be better filled by a development player and he should at his age be away playing regularly elsewhere.

[The Dude 20,026]

10 minutes ago, sassaaaa said:

Dunno how you or anybody else wastes time on this prick , he's on here to wind folk up and loves the sound of his own voice.

Should have been bumped off here many times for some of the shit he's wrote , but as i said before some on here are protected.

5

[K.A.I 36,183]

Just now, Negri's lovechild said:

I get your point regarding loan moves, and it can be looked at in two ways - the lad is hungry to play football rather than sit on the development team or bench and pick up a wage, and can learn how the game is played at the lower levels and toughen up, ready to come back and challenge for a place.

Or, the player will find that's his level, won't make any progression or have the desire to want better. 

I guess a lot of it depends on how much talent and desire the player really has to make it in the game. I think being at Raith for a season or two really helped Bates in particular with the physical side of the game (though don't think he played much). We have been pretty poor at identifying talent over the years as a club . I guess the loan system can be a bit of a lottery. Bit like (the) Dalcio warming the bench with us. That place would be better filled by a development player and he should at his age be away playing regularly elsewhere.

It can be looked at 2 ways your 100% correct - I just so happen to look at it the way that I don’t think it does the amount of good most others think it does. There is a case to say maybe talent wise they just don’t have it, but if they are so bad and untalented we shouldn’t we wasting time and money loaning them out anyway - as for the better ones I’d rather develop them in house and give them first team football where possible even 10 minutes here and there when games are won coupled with them training with the first team and going and playing against top European teams on this programe we’ve got going is much better than them going places like Ayr, Raith, Berwick ... it’s a no brainer for me 

[The Dude 20,026]

10 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

He can be alright when he’s not in one of his jumped up moods where no-one else can have a different opinion to him 

Folk are more than welcome to have a different opinion from me, just in the same way that I'm perfectly entitled to question that opinion (and anyone is of any of my opinions) that's how these websites work. If we all agreed on everything it would be a pretty fucking dull place no?

As I said earlier, I'm not in the habit of going into thread and posting "I agree" because it's rather pointless and adds nothing. If I disagree with something I'll question it. If I post something someone disagrees with then they are more than welcome to question it.

 

[Negri's lovechild 14,049]

1 minute ago, K.A.I said:

It can be looked at 2 ways your 100% correct - I just so happen to look at it the way that I don’t think it does the amount of good most others think it does. There is a case to say maybe talent wise they just don’t have it, but if they are so bad and untalented we shouldn’t we wasting time and money loaning them out anyway - as for the better ones I’d rather develop them in house and give them first team football where possible even 10 minutes here and there when games are won coupled with them training with the first team and going and playing against top European teams on this programe we’ve got going is much better than them going places like Ayr, Raith, Berwick ... it’s a no brainer for me 

The more defensive minded players seem to benefit from being loaned out to lower league clubs (that toughening up they maybe need), but the more forward thinking players seem to disappear and generally get a kicking.

I think the European games are a fantastic idea and opens their minds tactically to a different level of football and technical ability,and we seem to be doing well. A possible alternative may be to have a competitive European development league or cup, as that competitive element makes a massive difference. 

Definitely any first team game time would be beneficial, and that is maybe a failing of our management team that we have taken other teams young players on loan to sit on our bench where we could be giving that space to one of our own. Definitely a compelling argument 

[The Dude 20,026]

3 minutes ago, K.A.I said:

It can be looked at 2 ways your 100% correct - I just so happen to look at it the way that I don’t think it does the amount of good most others think it does. There is a case to say maybe talent wise they just don’t have it, but if they are so bad and untalented we shouldn’t we wasting time and money loaning them out anyway - as for the better ones I’d rather develop them in house and give them first team football where possible even 10 minutes here and there when games are won coupled with them training with the first team and going and playing against top European teams on this programe we’ve got going is much better than them going places like Ayr, Raith, Berwick ... it’s a no brainer for me 

As good as playing the European sides is, there's no competitive edge to them, it's not players fighting and scrapping for every ball because it could end up the difference with them being full-time or part-time (or in some cases employed or not). It's the same with only bringing players on when games are won. Players don't learn much coming into a game that is already effectively finished. One of the big things McCrorie spoke about from his loan was learning proper game management as in youth games the match often died off long before then end and meant players weren't being put under pressure right until the very last.

Off the top of my head there are something like 8 or 9 boys out on loan just now, we couldn't give them all regular first-team games right now - christ we can't even give them all regular games in the 20's - so moving them out temporarily to play senior football is a big thing.

[AGM_72 3,633]

I always think back to Steven MacLean when he was with us. Loaned out, top scorer with 25 goals at Scunthorpe in the lower leagues of England but returned here to be sent packing. I was about 14/15 at that time and found it quite frustrating he was scoring goals while we were absolutely honking in front of goal in the 03/04 season. History tells you that was a good decision to get rid when he returned, he's carved out a journeyman career which is nothing to be ashamed of. I'd imagine that loan move did him some good but he was rightly deemed not good enough to play for us when he returned. 

Perhaps a similar comparison is Ryan Hardie. He tends to go away on loan, score goals then not get a look in here - whilst some people cry out for him to get a run in the side. He'll probably carve out a similar career for himself elsewhere. The overall deciding factor is ability and a few, like a Barry Ferguson, will simply rise straight to the top but those are the best players of their generation.

I think loans can help supplement the ability. Some kids have the ability and never make it because of their mentality/attitude and I think loans can help players develop their mental strength/consistency. There's certainly an element of players gaining the mental strength whilst out on loan that will benefit them because they're out of their comfort zone, they're competing with guys for a position who might be fighting for their livelihood. Guys like Steven MacLean and Charlie Adam have had different careers but have both benefited from their loan deals to some extent - whether it's getting games or even the exposure this granted them.

Edit: I think Allan McGregor is perhaps another good example. He lingered around the team the way Liam Kelly has and accumulated several loans. I never expected McGregor to hit the heights he did.

[StirlingBear72 476]

For me, all these loans do are get youths used to the physicality of football here. No one will go to the lower leagues and improve technically. As a defender he'll learn more playing against varations of forwards in the European friendlies with the unders surely.

I'm not for it in all honesty but I wish Wilson the best of luck and hopefully he'll get plenty appearances and it's not a complete waste of time for the lad.

[Sket 13,610]

12 hours ago, K.A.I said:

good signing for Dumbarton but I’ve yet to be convinced what good these loan moves actually do for our players - id rather see them stay with the unders and play in the European programe 

everyone always says “good move” in every thread about a youth getting loaned out but it never actually turns out to be a good move at all 

It worked for McGregor but i'm fucked if i can think of anyone since then who has returned and broke into/made an impact on the 1st team. 

[cushynumber 25,178]

12 hours ago, K.A.I said:

good signing for Dumbarton but I’ve yet to be convinced what good these loan moves actually do for our players - id rather see them stay with the unders and play in the European programe 

everyone always says “good move” in every thread about a youth getting loaned out but it never actually turns out to be a good move at all 

when you think of all the people we have/had on loan, its depressing - from Halliday downing tools in Azkaban, to Dodoo warming benches, to MOH being told to come back and then disappearing - did any of those loans benefit the club in any way? If they are playing, they are keeping fit,  I suppose - but are they getting better as players? maybe for the younger players it's a benefit, but the automatic assumption its a good thing is tenuous at best.

I would think after a certain age, loaning them out is simply getting them off the wage bill for a few months.

[Redwhiteandblue 3,330]

Would've preferred Livingston. They have a few of our players and are doing well. 

[The Dude 20,026]

13 minutes ago, Sket said:

It worked for McGregor but i'm fucked if i can think of anyone since then who has returned and broke into/made an impact on the 1st team. 

Ross McCrorie.

[Sket 13,610]

15 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Ross McCrorie.

What's the story?

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,647]

Emergency loan? Is that a crisis loan wae a fur coat oan !

[RoyalBlues 54]

starting today in the cup

[Laudrup1690 1,064]

20 hours ago, K.A.I said:

good signing for Dumbarton but I’ve yet to be convinced what good these loan moves actually do for our players - id rather see them stay with the unders and play in the European programe 

everyone always says “good move” in every thread about a youth getting loaned out but it never actually turns out to be a good move at all 

McCrorie said recently his loan last season helped him immensely and he came back a better footballer from his experience 

[K.A.I 36,183]

Just now, Laudrup1690 said:

McCrorie said recently his loan last season helped him immensely and he came back a better footballer from his experience 

That’s great for him but the proof is literally in the pudding for the vast, vast majority of them. We can all say good move every time but it honestly isn’t 

[whatnobeer 89]

It's easy to look at the loan players who come back and don't make the cut. It's even easier to forget about the vast majority of the youth players who don't go out on loan and still don't make the cut. 

It's one thing playing against under 20's teams, even if they're good teams from Europe, but that's nothing compared to the kicking a player will get from the likes of Motherwell or any of the Scottish Championship teams. It's clearly not always going to be a good move, but I'd be surprised if the players who go on loan don't learn anything. Even if it's just how lucky they are to be at Ibrox and not some shite hole stadium else where in Scotland.