Am I a Bigot?

[J_RFC87 766]

Not to be bigoted is, in my opinion, not very far from apathy.

In answer to the original poster, "am I a bigot", probably, welcome to the human race; to the people who accuse him of bigotry, "Fuck off and get a life".

Just because a person doesn't hold bigoted views doesn't mean they're any less passionate about the issue. This is probably where education and history of the issue comes into play - a person who is educated on it and makes a valid opinion isn't a bigot. The OP has got strong views which a lot of us will agree with, but it doesn't make him a bigot.

I agree with the last sentence. People are pathetic when the pick at certain words trying to accuse and alienate others as bigots.

I probably overstated my case there,but I would contend that no matter how you derive your opinion, through reason and education, or through "monkey see; monkey do" you will be accused of bigotry based on the content, not how it was obtained.

...and that right there, is the problem with Old firm culture which will probably never be defeated.

[GOAT 30,449]

the pope says because I'm not a catholic I'm going to hell.

I say fuck him, apparently that makes me a bigot.

That's a bit misleading. This used to be the RC church stance, and infact was said by numerous popes in history. The RC church has changed it's stance a little, it apparently says that all Christians can be saved, but non-catholics wont have the same purity as catholics apparently, because we rejected the "one true church". A man, just like me and you, with a white hat can't decide on who goes to heaven, salvation can only be decided by God alone.

[BLUE CYCLOPS 26]

We have basically been penalised for the same thing each time, songs and chants. Neither of the two songs you’ve mentioned bother me in the slightest, I’m not offended by the TFOA or Let the People Sing. Fair enough asking what have they got to do with football but are they actually sectarian?

=================================================================

I see from your last sentence that you have been conned by the thought police into following their agenda. "are they actually sectarian?". Does it matter?

In my OP I drew attention to certain peoples obsession with "sectarianism". It is repeated in every article, every complaint, every time a microphone or video camera is around.

Celtic songs aren,t "sectarian" they,re political. SO WHAT! They,re still offensive why are they not dragged over the coals like Rangers? I asked is sectarianism the greatest evil facing humanity?

No it is not. It is wrong, it should be eliminated but it is not as evil as Child abuse. It is not as evil as

planting a bomb in a fish shop full of women and kids. It is not as evil as the Nazi death camps.

But constant repitition and complaints about "sectarianism" has elevated it to a degree not warranted.

That is the point in my OP. I am not trying to defend our chants or songs but I am attacking those hypocrits who are obsessed with their religion and only their religion. I am disgusted at their stomach churning self justification. I am sick of being labled a bigot by the real bigots.

[grahamteuchter 1]

Sorry but i dont get the point in this post at all. Most religeons think that they have the right answer and are the right way. Im a Protestant (with a big P because i go to church and therfor not a plastic proddy) and obviously believe that the way we worship God is the right way... They all do. The Jewish faith are still waiting for the son of God and dont believe in Jesus Christ at all. This is surely a more damaging view on the Christian faith than a wee Nazi saying "you wont go to heaven unless your are a Roman Catholic" (at this point i would want to make sure that i do not sound like i have an issue with the Jewish faith..it was just an example). I would like to know where the quote comes from where the Pope says this???

I say each to their own. Let them worship how they want. I for one dont want to spend my life feeling guilty 24/7 like they do.... The whole asking a man(not God) for forgiveness goes against what the Bible suggests. Only God has the right to judge a person. I will never come out and slag an entire religeon when they worship God. That is what it is all about. As for the Bigot comments. I for one have never been called a bigot because i am a Protestant. I have been called a Bigot because Rangers fans have got a reputation of being so. The media's demonisation of our club and supporters have caused this...not some wee guy in Rome. Its the Political powers that are in office that are causing this. Maybe as suporters we should start using our votes to change this...stop voting Labour/ SNP, stop buying the red tops....i dont know...whatever can be done to show our anger at the constant fouling of our name

PLASTIC PRODDY????

I'm Protestant and i believe in God but i don't need to sit in a concrete building over decorated and pray with others just because that's the way i'm told...

I'll be a protestant in my own time not when you tell me.....Protestantism is not about going to church and if your Protestant then you should know this..i doubt your credentials sometimes.

At which point in this point did i mention you singularly?

[dbyst 570]

no you are not a bigot!! and neither are most rangers fans!!

[grahamteuchter 1]

I read this thread last night and thought I’d give it a miss, my presence tends to bring more heat than light. But it’s quiet at work just now so fuck it, no doubt by the end of this some of you will be wishing I had.

Firslty I’ve no idea if the OP is a bigot or not but I get that his question is rhetorical. What puzzles me about his post and some of the others we’ve had on the D’art thread too is the persecution complex he and others seem to have. This baffles me. I travel a bit with work, nothing too exotic but it brings me into contact with many different types of people. Often football will come up and I’m always amused by their reactions to finding out I’m a Rangers fan.

Europeans tend not to be surprised, pretty much Rangers and Celtc are the only teams they’ve heard of in Scotland. Some have a very basic grasp of the religious/social thing but often they don’t know which team is which. They are happy to talk football.

Most Americans have little clue, some still see ‘UK soccer’ as some sort of mid 80s riotathon, some as a sport played everywhere that they have little interest in. There are exceptions but they are few and far between.

So really it is only when I meet other British or Irish people that any supposed baggage I might have becomes relevant.

The level of ignorance many English fans have has stopped surprising me now. Most simply don’t care about Scottish football. The fact that most of us could name every player in the top four teams in England is not reciprocated in my experience. Some feign an interest, they might have a ‘Scottish club’ often for bizarre reasons, sometimes simply because they like the colour of the strip. Some bring up the religious/cultural aspect of Rangers, I’m comfortable with that.

Meeting Irish people is a real eye-opener. I like the Irish, I find them welcoming and usually good company. Most of the men have a deep love of football and are more than happy to talk to you about it. Some have a preconceived idea that Rangers are bad and Celtc good, fair enough, I suppose to them it might well look that way. However almost all of them support quite passionately an English team and rarely give Scottish football much thought. The iconography associated with Rangers fans does, too them, resemble a lot of the symbols associated with the extreme end of Loyalism in the Northern Ireland and some make a judgement on that. However I find that engaging with them, pointing out that the flags and symbols are also used by not only the law abiding democratically elected majority in Northern Ireland but also right across the UK and by demonstrating to them that I fit many stereotypes people may have about Rangers fans but I’m not card carrying member of the UDA speaks volumes.

Now meeting Scots is the most difficult. They’ve already made up their mind. But again most people you meet are pretty normal, decent human beings. Sometimes they support a different football team, sometimes they support ‘them’. Most of the time our ‘talk’ is good natured but sometimes it gets a bit sharp and people fall back on stereotypes. Fine, challenge them. If you are a decent human being you’ve nothing to worry about and they’ll soon see that. But sometimes we do need to take a step back and look at ourselves. Is our own behaviour always exemplary, do we ever still sing songs that are just frankly wrong, do we still see actions among ourselves that might bring us into disrepute? If we’re honest we all know the answer.

I have no idea if Blue Cyclops is a bigot, he probably isn’t, he’s probably a pretty normal run-of-the-mill guy like the rest of us. But this self-pity, this persecution complex, this ‘poor me’ routine that has crept into our support is troubling. We can sit in our own shite and complain that no one else seems to be sitting in shite or we can clean it up and let others worry about themselves. If we clean up our own shite we’ll be in a far stronger position to respond to ‘the enemies’ when they say we smell.

I agree with you entirely here. Im not sure how everyone takes this but there is a lot of this going on, as well as the "well they are doing it...so we will too". I would like to think we are better than that. Its going to take a long time to change some peoples thinking on this, and perhaps there is genuine reasons to not change certain actions but the idea of taking a step back and looking at what we can do to actually change things then the situation will never change

[grahamteuchter 1]

The Catholic Church is without doubt the most oppresive organisation in the Western world. On Earth it's probably second only to the Communist Party in China.

No women or gay priests, the unhealthy, un-natural abstience of priests, their apartheid schooling and their claims of 'persecution' is frankly laughable and actually pretty disturbing.

I'm a great believer that you should be able to practice any religion you wish as long as it is done in your own time and you don't push your beliefs on anyone else. That's why the Catholic Church really annoys me

Every single moral story in the papers we have got Cardinal this and Archbishop that telling Scotland, a country more than 70% non-Catholic how to live our lives. THEY DON'T SPEAK FOR US

They should stick to sorting out their own affairs such as the problem of Paedo Priests, their failure to hand out condoms in Africa which is leading to the death of millions of Catholics from AIDS and their falling Chapel attendances.

For the Catholic Church to take the moral high ground is frankly laughable. This is the same faith which were quite happy to stand by and let Fascism and Nazism murder millions of innocent people in the 30's and 40's as long as the Vatican was safe. They still have millions of Nazi gold stashed away.

Thank God for John Knox and the Reformation. Look at the difference between Scotland and Ireland around that time. On the one hand one nation is starving to death and being held down by a repressive Church, the other inventing, improving and becoming a vibrant nation where everyone had the opportunity because everyone had an education.

People can call me a bigot if they want. If that's what I am then, frankly so be it, but that's my opinion

I would suggest Islam is the most oppresive to be honest. Woman wearing hijabs, not being allowed to learn to read and write, genital mutilation, homosexuals being stoned to death, being beheaded for adultery. Think that is a little worse. Especially as it is all apparently in the name of Allah

[BLUEDIGNITY 34,090]

We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better.

Then again BD i have a catholic workmate who says that this country was catholic way before it was protestant, he then argues thats Scotland was/is a catholic country, and us protestants are the ones who need to go home.

Ah the old catholic workmate ploy ! There were Bluenoses here before any cunt, Caesar said it himself !

"Most of the inland inhabitants [of Britain] do not sow corn, but live on milk and flesh, and are clad with skins. All the Britons indeed, dye themselves with woad, which occasions a bluish colour, and thereby have a more terrible appearance in fight. They wear their hair long, and have every part of their body shaved except their head and upper lip. "

Julius Caesar (A Roman Emperor)

[grahamteuchter 1]

We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better.

Then again BD i have a catholic workmate who says that this country was catholic way before it was protestant, he then argues thats Scotland was/is a catholic country, and us protestants are the ones who need to go home.

Ah the old catholic workmate ploy ! There were Bluenoses here before any cunt, Caesar said it himself !

"Most of the inland inhabitants [of Britain] do not sow corn, but live on milk and flesh, and are clad with skins. All the Britons indeed, dye themselves with woad, which occasions a bluish colour, and thereby have a more terrible appearance in fight. They wear their hair long, and have every part of their body shaved except their head and upper lip. "

Julius Caesar (A Roman Emperor)

[AMMS 27]

So you complain about some of our loyalist songs but you don't have a problem with Let the People Sing? If you are only going to find offence about stuff that our fans do then no wonder you don't believe that it isn't orchestrated. You state that we have been penalised but nothing is done about other teams. The celtic away support were consistent in their pro-IRA chants last year, and the Nacho Novo song went by with hardly a whimper.

Given that Rangers have been criticised for playing Rule Britannia and flying the Union Flag (3 separate journalists referred to Nuremburg) but there is not anything on the other side, I fail to see how it is any sort of jump in logic. I've given you examples of where Celtic as a club embrace republicanism and condone pro-IRA banners without any degree of mention in the press and yet we have MSPs raising questions about a song that Rangers fans sing.

You have come up with a wee tosser like Anzi as your defence. Well I'll see you Anzi and raise you William Walls. However I don't believe one-off cases of individual supporters are really the point here.

The Tom Williams CSC is named after the guy below, and Celtic do not have a problem with the name and allow them to continue to operate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Williams_(Irish_Republican)

The evidence is clear, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to end up arguing about specific songs, neither the two you mentioned bother me particularly I had to look up the words for the second one as it is a new one to me and I'm struggling to find offence, sorry. I don't know who or what 'Anzi' is. Thanks for the Tom Williams link, I agree Celtc should have to explain themselves on that.

Right, so say I'm wrong and this is indeed an orchestrated attack. Who is behind this attack, how many are there, what is their end game, who runs it, do the meet up, do they have a name? I'm being serious, what you're suggesting is a level of organisation is involved and I'm struggling with that concept.

[AMMS 27]

I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

Where are people being paranoid?

Of course there are unfounded theories about who and why certain sections of society are hostile to our club. I accept those can detract from the more salient points others make.

However, what can't be denied is that Rangers remain the only team to be punished for sectarian singing. This, in turn, causes further problems because the media (some of whom were complicit in the UEFA punishment) feel this means they can single out our club any time a controversial chant (or banner) is aired.

From that slewed coverage, what we have is others - from opposing fans, football authorities, social commentators, police forces, discredited charities and government ministers - taking this further by attempting to enforce unworkable and inconsistent laws/rules over the most needless stuff.

If this were happening across the board then fair enough, we could all moan. But it plainly does not happen across the board and it stems from an imbalance in media coverage primarily.

That isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Sorry Frankie I'm jumping around posts trying to keep up and just noticed this one.

The paranoia I refer too is in the opening posts of the two threads we've been discussing. These are some examples -

“And yet I am considered to be a bigot by a group of people who do not know me but who demonise me because I don,t follow their religion.”

“MON can run off to UEFA with his media chums and bad mouth Rangers because he,s not a bigot, we are. Such is the depth of brainwashing that, to them, a sectarian bigot is someone who is not a Catholic.”

“In truth, the fact that the Parade is under scrutiny and the methods are nothing new at all. In fact we can go back to the last century and the birth of communism to find the catalyst. In 1920 Lenin wrote “It is impossible to exercise dictatorship without having a number of transmission belts from the vanguard”

“A measure of the increased bravado of the usurpers within our midst was evidenced at Armed Forces Day in Glasgow. This was a first for even Glasgow...an attempt to deny the right of our armed forces marching through our streets.”

“I would suspect however that for these people our football club is on their radar of hated organisations.”

“For those who think that making our football club “whiter than white” will remove us from the enemy’s radar, I’m afraid you are sadly deluded. As much as Neville Chamberlain was when he told the British people he had in hands a piece of paper which guaranteed peace in our time”

I'm sorry but the posters are claiming being demonised because they aren't RC, that Martin O'Neil thinks anyone who isn't an RC is a sectarian bigot, quoting Lenin and comparing us to the Russian revolution and to Neville Chamberlain and the onset of world war two.

It is at best hyperbole but looks increasingly like paranoia to me.

[nostragerus 1]

I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

Where are people being paranoid?

Of course there are unfounded theories about who and why certain sections of society are hostile to our club. I accept those can detract from the more salient points others make.

However, what can't be denied is that Rangers remain the only team to be punished for sectarian singing. This, in turn, causes further problems because the media (some of whom were complicit in the UEFA punishment) feel this means they can single out our club any time a controversial chant (or banner) is aired.

From that slewed coverage, what we have is others - from opposing fans, football authorities, social commentators, police forces, discredited charities and government ministers - taking this further by attempting to enforce unworkable and inconsistent laws/rules over the most needless stuff.

If this were happening across the board then fair enough, we could all moan. But it plainly does not happen across the board and it stems from an imbalance in media coverage primarily.

That isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Sorry Frankie I'm jumping around posts trying to keep up and just noticed this one.

The paranoia I refer too is in the opening posts of the two threads we've been discussing. These are some examples -

“And yet I am considered to be a bigot by a group of people who do not know me but who demonise me because I don,t follow their religion.”

“MON can run off to UEFA with his media chums and bad mouth Rangers because he,s not a bigot, we are. Such is the depth of brainwashing that, to them, a sectarian bigot is someone who is not a Catholic.”

“In truth, the fact that the Parade is under scrutiny and the methods are nothing new at all. In fact we can go back to the last century and the birth of communism to find the catalyst. In 1920 Lenin wrote “It is impossible to exercise dictatorship without having a number of transmission belts from the vanguard”

“A measure of the increased bravado of the usurpers within our midst was evidenced at Armed Forces Day in Glasgow. This was a first for even Glasgow...an attempt to deny the right of our armed forces marching through our streets.”

“I would suspect however that for these people our football club is on their radar of hated organisations.”

“For those who think that making our football club “whiter than white” will remove us from the enemy’s radar, I’m afraid you are sadly deluded. As much as Neville Chamberlain was when he told the British people he had in hands a piece of paper which guaranteed peace in our time”

I'm sorry but the posters are claiming being demonised because they aren't RC, that Martin O'Neil thinks anyone who isn't an RC is a sectarian bigot, quoting Lenin and comparing us to the Russian revolution and to Neville Chamberlain and the onset of world war two.

It is at best hyperbole but looks increasingly like paranoia to me.

o,neill was the man who paraded that paragon of virtue neill lennon to his flock at the broomloan stand after an old firm game at ibrox after o,neill complained of the abuse lennon was subjected too

when ian ferguson played played for dunfermline against celtic he was the victim of sectarian abuse from the celtic fans

asked to comment o,neill said he,s a big boy he can look after himself

martin o,neill man of double standards or a hypocrite you decide

[bluenose48 979]

A very interesting thread. I too am a 61 year old Rangers supporter and have been since I was 10 yrs old. I was raised as a member of the Church of Scotland, went to bible classes, sunday school and church until I,along with my family emigrated to Australia. I went to Ibrox on a few occasions to watch my heroes, but at times was confused by some of the adults there who seemed more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant they could rather than watch the game. It seemed to be of secondary importance to spewing out bile against catholics and we weren't even playing celtic.

I am now what has been described in earlier posts as a plastic proddy, I believe in God but not in any of the accepted conduits for reaching him.

I have read numerous books on Scottish history from the time of Wallace through to "The History of the Working Classes of Scotland" by Tom Johnston. What I see throughout the history of Scotland is mans inhumanity to man and we don't need much of a reason to fight with our neighbours.

The atrocities perpetrated by men on each other in the name of God by both Catholic and Protestant turns my stomach and I have no doubt turns the stomach of God ( if he can still be bothered with us ).

Reading the posts you can see there are some hardline bigoted people still support Rangers but there others that are starting to see reason. This bigotry on both sides will never stop until one side is big enough to stop it and I would like to think that it could be us.

Rangers are primarily a football team started by protestants, we I think, are the best team in Scotland and one of the best in Europe and we can emphasise that position by being the bigger human beings and supporters and putting a stop to sectarianism within our club.

[The Hammer 11 2,860]

A big problem with both sides of the old firm is the lack of education on the subjects being sung about .For example if you don't know what the biilly boys is about don't sing it or the sash if you don't know the true menaing of the sash why do you sing it and if you disagree with the pope please provide an educated and releveant reason for it otherwise you make us look as bad as them lot from the otherside of the city.The problem is education sometimw somewhere it failed and a lot of people don't know what it is all about

[Bluedell 14]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

[bombaybadboy08 15,660]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

There's been a court case etc and still people come out with that trash

[bluenose48 979]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

[Jeff crap in the head 120]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

fuckin hell

edit: Anti-catholic church establishment yes, anti-catholics, as in hating catholics, which is what we are made out to be, no.

[theweebluenose 4,343]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

You obviously know fuck all about the Orange Order then.

[brissybear 50]

I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

Where are people being paranoid?

Of course there are unfounded theories about who and why certain sections of society are hostile to our club. I accept those can detract from the more salient points others make.

However, what can't be denied is that Rangers remain the only team to be punished for sectarian singing. This, in turn, causes further problems because the media (some of whom were complicit in the UEFA punishment) feel this means they can single out our club any time a controversial chant (or banner) is aired.

From that slewed coverage, what we have is others - from opposing fans, football authorities, social commentators, police forces, discredited charities and government ministers - taking this further by attempting to enforce unworkable and inconsistent laws/rules over the most needless stuff.

If this were happening across the board then fair enough, we could all moan. But it plainly does not happen across the board and it stems from an imbalance in media coverage primarily.

That isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Sorry Frankie I'm jumping around posts trying to keep up and just noticed this one.

The paranoia I refer too is in the opening posts of the two threads we've been discussing. These are some examples -

“And yet I am considered to be a bigot by a group of people who do not know me but who demonise me because I don,t follow their religion.”

“MON can run off to UEFA with his media chums and bad mouth Rangers because he,s not a bigot, we are. Such is the depth of brainwashing that, to them, a sectarian bigot is someone who is not a Catholic.”

“In truth, the fact that the Parade is under scrutiny and the methods are nothing new at all. In fact we can go back to the last century and the birth of communism to find the catalyst. In 1920 Lenin wrote “It is impossible to exercise dictatorship without having a number of transmission belts from the vanguard”

“A measure of the increased bravado of the usurpers within our midst was evidenced at Armed Forces Day in Glasgow. This was a first for even Glasgow...an attempt to deny the right of our armed forces marching through our streets.”

“I would suspect however that for these people our football club is on their radar of hated organisations.”

“For those who think that making our football club “whiter than white” will remove us from the enemy’s radar, I’m afraid you are sadly deluded. As much as Neville Chamberlain was when he told the British people he had in hands a piece of paper which guaranteed peace in our time”

I'm sorry but the posters are claiming being demonised because they aren't RC, that Martin O'Neil thinks anyone who isn't an RC is a sectarian bigot, quoting Lenin and comparing us to the Russian revolution and to Neville Chamberlain and the onset of world war two.

It is at best hyperbole but looks increasingly like paranoia to me.

o,neill was the man who paraded that paragon of virtue neill lennon to his flock at the broomloan stand after an old firm game at ibrox after o,neill complained of the abuse lennon was subjected too

when ian ferguson played played for dunfermline against celtic he was the victim of sectarian abuse from the celtic fans

asked to comment o,neill said he,s a big boy he can look after himself

martin o,neill man of double standards or a hypocrite you decide

MON and Neil Lennon played for N.I.

Real bigots would never pull the green of NI on.

These threads are getting depressing, our obsession with all things Timmy has reached record levels. This faux war against a few journos and the odd insignificant person taht no-one has ever heard of is getting ridiculous.

To the OP, no you are not a bigot, a drama queen perhaps, but not a bigot.

[brissybear 50]

A very interesting thread. I too am a 61 year old Rangers supporter and have been since I was 10 yrs old. I was raised as a member of the Church of Scotland, went to bible classes, sunday school and church until I,along with my family emigrated to Australia. I went to Ibrox on a few occasions to watch my heroes, but at times was confused by some of the adults there who seemed more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant they could rather than watch the game. It seemed to be of secondary importance to spewing out bile against catholics and we weren't even playing celtic.

I am now what has been described in earlier posts as a plastic proddy, I believe in God but not in any of the accepted conduits for reaching him.

I have read numerous books on Scottish history from the time of Wallace through to "The History of the Working Classes of Scotland" by Tom Johnston. What I see throughout the history of Scotland is mans inhumanity to man and we don't need much of a reason to fight with our neighbours.

The atrocities perpetrated by men on each other in the name of God by both Catholic and Protestant turns my stomach and I have no doubt turns the stomach of God ( if he can still be bothered with us ).

Reading the posts you can see there are some hardline bigoted people still support Rangers but there others that are starting to see reason. This bigotry on both sides will never stop until one side is big enough to stop it and I would like to think that it could be us.

Rangers are primarily a football team started by protestants, we I think, are the best team in Scotland and one of the best in Europe and we can emphasise that position by being the bigger human beings and supporters and putting a stop to sectarianism within our club.

Great post apart from "the sash' part. It never has been bigoted and along with DW's are the 2 traditional songs that will live with us forever.

Lets get rid of the shite, glorifying murdererers like the UVF etc, and keep the traditional stuff. they can never touch as for that.

[bluenose48 979]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

You obviously know fuck all about the Orange Order then.

What you're trying to tell me the Orange Lodge is not anti catholic.It may now on the surface portray itself as a organisation doing charitable works etc. But it was initially formed in 1688 after the battle of the diamond and assisted William of Orange at the battle of the Boyne in 1690. Part of the initiation ceremony into the degree of the Royal Arch Purple is anti catholic. So don't try and tell me the Orange Order is not anti catholic. While the words of The Sash in themselves are not bigoted they are sung by Orangemen and others on the 12th Of July as a taunt to catholics which only incites hatred.

[Jelle1880 645]

more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant

In what way is the Sash bigoted?

The sash is about a symbol of the Orange Lodge and if thats not an anti catholic organisation I don't know what is.

You obviously know fuck all about the Orange Order then.

What you're trying to tell me the Orange Lodge is not anti catholic.It may now on the surface portray itself as a organisation doing charitable works etc. But it was initially formed in 1688 after the battle of the diamond and assisted William of Orange at the battle of the Boyne in 1690. Part of the initiation ceremony into the degree of the Royal Arch Purple is anti catholic. So don't try and tell me the Orange Order is not anti catholic. While the words of The Sash in themselves are not bigoted they are sung by Orangemen and others on the 12th Of July as a taunt to catholics which only incites hatred.

It's a Protestant organisation and thus it only allows people of the Protestant faith.

They are in no way anti-Catholic in the way they act (Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to walk in Donegal, right ?)

About your Boyne-'argument', does that make all the Dutch soldiers who fought for William anti-Catholic as well ?

How about the Pope himself, who supported William ?

I also think you just outed yourself as either an idiot or one of 'them'.

[Frankie 505]

I feel both threads show varying degrees of paranoia and an everyone is out to get us mentality.

Where are people being paranoid?

Of course there are unfounded theories about who and why certain sections of society are hostile to our club. I accept those can detract from the more salient points others make.

However, what can't be denied is that Rangers remain the only team to be punished for sectarian singing. This, in turn, causes further problems because the media (some of whom were complicit in the UEFA punishment) feel this means they can single out our club any time a controversial chant (or banner) is aired.

From that slewed coverage, what we have is others - from opposing fans, football authorities, social commentators, police forces, discredited charities and government ministers - taking this further by attempting to enforce unworkable and inconsistent laws/rules over the most needless stuff.

If this were happening across the board then fair enough, we could all moan. But it plainly does not happen across the board and it stems from an imbalance in media coverage primarily.

That isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Sorry Frankie I'm jumping around posts trying to keep up and just noticed this one.

The paranoia I refer too is in the opening posts of the two threads we've been discussing. These are some examples -

“And yet I am considered to be a bigot by a group of people who do not know me but who demonise me because I don,t follow their religion.”

“MON can run off to UEFA with his media chums and bad mouth Rangers because he,s not a bigot, we are. Such is the depth of brainwashing that, to them, a sectarian bigot is someone who is not a Catholic.”

“In truth, the fact that the Parade is under scrutiny and the methods are nothing new at all. In fact we can go back to the last century and the birth of communism to find the catalyst. In 1920 Lenin wrote “It is impossible to exercise dictatorship without having a number of transmission belts from the vanguard”

“A measure of the increased bravado of the usurpers within our midst was evidenced at Armed Forces Day in Glasgow. This was a first for even Glasgow...an attempt to deny the right of our armed forces marching through our streets.”

“I would suspect however that for these people our football club is on their radar of hated organisations.”

“For those who think that making our football club “whiter than white” will remove us from the enemy’s radar, I’m afraid you are sadly deluded. As much as Neville Chamberlain was when he told the British people he had in hands a piece of paper which guaranteed peace in our time”

I'm sorry but the posters are claiming being demonised because they aren't RC, that Martin O'Neil thinks anyone who isn't an RC is a sectarian bigot, quoting Lenin and comparing us to the Russian revolution and to Neville Chamberlain and the onset of world war two.

It is at best hyperbole but looks increasingly like paranoia to me.

Taking one or two posts from scores of other less entrenched ones to make an overall generalisation isn't really accurate though. I mentioned such unfounded theories above in the very first sentence of my reply you quoted.

However, as you can see from the rest of that post (which you don't comment on) the general situation is that Rangers are continually highlighted and censured while others are not. Again, that isn't paranoia or an unreasonable entrenched opinion but a conclusion obvious to most and one the club itself agree with.

Why do you refuse to concede that Rangers are treated worse than others when the evidence is clear? And that often the treatment is unfair, inaccurate and only serves to increase problems as a result?

[Frankie 505]

A very interesting thread. I too am a 61 year old Rangers supporter and have been since I was 10 yrs old. I was raised as a member of the Church of Scotland, went to bible classes, sunday school and church until I,along with my family emigrated to Australia. I went to Ibrox on a few occasions to watch my heroes, but at times was confused by some of the adults there who seemed more intent on singing the sash, the billy boys and every other bigoted chant they could rather than watch the game. It seemed to be of secondary importance to spewing out bile against catholics and we weren't even playing celtic.

I am now what has been described in earlier posts as a plastic proddy, I believe in God but not in any of the accepted conduits for reaching him.

I have read numerous books on Scottish history from the time of Wallace through to "The History of the Working Classes of Scotland" by Tom Johnston. What I see throughout the history of Scotland is mans inhumanity to man and we don't need much of a reason to fight with our neighbours.

The atrocities perpetrated by men on each other in the name of God by both Catholic and Protestant turns my stomach and I have no doubt turns the stomach of God ( if he can still be bothered with us ).

Reading the posts you can see there are some hardline bigoted people still support Rangers but there others that are starting to see reason. This bigotry on both sides will never stop until one side is big enough to stop it and I would like to think that it could be us.

Rangers are primarily a football team started by protestants, we I think, are the best team in Scotland and one of the best in Europe and we can emphasise that position by being the bigger human beings and supporters and putting a stop to sectarianism within our club.

I think you're missing the fact we have put a stop to sectarianism within the club. We have taken the lead and we are the bigger human beings.

Meanwhile others are not following us and others are not punished for the bigotry you obviously despise.

That is the problem many of us have and, as yet, I've not seen anyone explain that outwith the evidence that we suffer from increased exposure in the media and increased negative comment from authority figures. As such, while I completely agree, working hard to face our challenges should be an ongoing process (and we should all subscribe to it), such a process is held up because there is one rule for us and one rule for others.

That is undeniable.