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Am I a Bigot?


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What I'm refusing to concede is that there is an 'orchestrated campaign' going on. For me that is a jump too far. I have no problem admitting (and getting annoyed at) specific instances where I feel we are being treated unfairly but as I replied to Bluedell last night I'm struggling to accept it's a conspiracy. I think we're confusing incompetence with strategy and in doing so we are in danger of becoming what we mock in others.

You're not opening your mind enough to the possible reasons that could be behind the symptoms Frankie's repeatedly highlighting imo. I suppose you consider it as completely irrelevant or just a coincidence that CFC employed as their Chairman, one of the country's most connected & powerful politicians? Maybe you think it's a conspiracy theory to suggest that it was by no means a mistake? I'm talking about a Football Club employing a man who was Neil Kinnock's adviser in the Labour party over 25 years ago & between then and going to CFC has either been in parliament or governmental positions, holding positions such as:-

  • Minister of State for Defence
  • Minister of State for Transport
  • Secretary of State for Scotland
  • Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
  • Minister without Portfolio and Labour Party Chairman
  • Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council
  • Secretary of State for Health
  • Secretary of State for Defence
  • Secretary of State for the Home Department (Home Secretary)

Nobody will EVER convince me that John Reid's appointment as chairman of CFC after a political career like that was any sort of coincidence or that since his appointment he hasn't been directly involved in the politics in Scotland leading to the issues Frankie is talking about. There are undoubted reasons that our club have been singled out as sectarian while CFC appear to be untouchable & Dr. John Reid is one of those reasons. Upon becoming Minister of State for Defence in '97, he wasn't given the task of helping write the 'Strategic Defence Review' for a laugh. As soon as that reptile of man was appointed as their Chairman I instantly knew there was something going on, something untoward & I'm 100% certain that my initial gut instinct was correct.

To those here who are saying 'keep politics & religion out of football', there's only one reply - TELL THAT TO CFC.

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I'm going to leave our exchanges there as we have both made our views quite clear, although I was already well aware of your thoughts from another board/blog. :)

Aha! My dark past finally catches up with me, I take it the clue is in the 'Dell' bit? As Frankie says I'm certainly in danger of going round in circles on this so probably best to leave it. I'm sure we'll have occasion to debate it again :)

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I'm going to leave our exchanges there as we have both made our views quite clear, although I was already well aware of your thoughts from another board/blog. :)

Aha! My dark past finally catches up with me, I take it the clue is in the 'Dell' bit? As Frankie says I'm certainly in danger of going round in circles on this so probably best to leave it. I'm sure we'll have occasion to debate it again :)

It is, mate. :)

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What I'm refusing to concede is that there is an 'orchestrated campaign' going on. For me that is a jump too far. I have no problem admitting (and getting annoyed at) specific instances where I feel we are being treated unfairly but as I replied to Bluedell last night I'm struggling to accept it's a conspiracy. I think we're confusing incompetence with strategy and in doing so we are in danger of becoming what we mock in others.

You're not opening your mind enough to the possible reasons that could be behind the symptoms Frankie's repeatedly highlighting imo. I suppose you consider it as completely irrelevant or just a coincidence that CFC employed as their Chairman, one of the country's most connected & powerful politicians? Maybe you think it's a conspiracy theory to suggest that it was by no means a mistake? I'm talking about a Football Club employing a man who was Neil Kinnock's adviser in the Labour party over 25 years ago & between then and going to CFC has either been in parliament or governmental positions, holding positions such as:-

  • Minister of State for Defence
  • Minister of State for Transport
  • Secretary of State for Scotland
  • Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
  • Minister without Portfolio and Labour Party Chairman
  • Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council
  • Secretary of State for Health
  • Secretary of State for Defence
  • Secretary of State for the Home Department (Home Secretary)

Nobody will EVER convince me that John Reid's appointment as chairman of CFC after a political career like that was any sort of coincidence or that since his appointment he hasn't been directly involved in the politics in Scotland leading to the issues Frankie is talking about. There are undoubted reasons that our club have been singled out as sectarian while CFC appear to be untouchable & Dr. John Reid is one of those reasons. Upon becoming Minister of State for Defence in '97, he wasn't given the task of helping write the 'Strategic Defence Review' for a laugh. As soon as that reptile of man was appointed as their Chairman I instantly knew there was something going on, something untoward & I'm 100% certain that my initial gut instinct was correct.

To those here who are saying 'keep politics & religion out of football', there's only one reply - TELL THAT TO CFC.

My problem here is that anything I say is going to sound like a defence of John Reid and I'm hardwired not to be able to do that! I'm not sure what you mean by 'coincidence'? Reid is a powerful figure in Scottish politics, he's a skilled communicator and will undoubtedly have friends in the media and in politics. Likewise he must have enemies in both too. I think it was on the other thread I explained my understanding of the whole Scotland's Secret Shame nonsense and its genesis and its ultimate failure, something we seem reluctant to accept. I'm sure Reid had some involvement in that and most of what the Scottish Labour party was involved in under Blair. Likewise I understand the current PM hates him with a passion a feeling that is mutual. Celtcs structure requires a figurehead chairman, the bloke before was a respected and successful banker, Reid is a high profile successful politician, I'm not sure what discredited occupation they'll plumb for next. If your suggestion is that Reid is behind media attacks on Rangers I'd be sceptical, his official involvement with Celtc is pre-dated by the type of issues being raised in these threads.

What I will concede is that people like Reid do hold power here, they shape legislation, and contribute heavily to the national debate and so it stands to reason that their views on certain subjects will come to the fore. That is very different from being involved in a concerted campaign of some description against Rangers fans. If we don't like the laws we can vote for someone else.

For the record I think he represents all that is wrong with the Scottish Labour party, he's a cronyist, a bully, a sycophant and a hypocrite.

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MON and Neil Lennon played for N.I.

Real bigots would never pull the green of NI on.

These threads are getting depressing, our obsession with all things Timmy has reached record levels. This faux war against a few journos and the odd insignificant person taht no-one has ever heard of is getting ridiculous.

To the OP, no you are not a bigot, a drama queen perhaps, but not a bigot. :craphead:

Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Whos defending them "token"?

Im stating a fact and who is "laying into" Rangers fans??

Trying to deflect some heat away from yourself???

Both of them played for NI. Would Gerry Adams or Martin McGuiness do the same??

They are not in the same equation, they are the least of our worries.

so what o,neill played for n ireland is it not an honour to represent the country of your birth

at the time he played for n ireland ,they were the better team of the two irelands qualifying for 2 world cup finals also the home intrenationals were played every season and at that time this was the only football getting maximum tv exposure as sky had not yet been heard of and the old english 1st division did not get the tv exposure it gets today so if you wanted top clas football this one of the few avenues

n ireland had many players from a nationalist background jennings,rice, armstrong,to name but a few so oneill would have looked silly not to play for his country and don,t forget at that time the republic had not started to steal players from other other countries yet as jack charlton started that, so he did not have that option

i liked your question about adams and mcguiness as they are now n ireland mlas (mps) at stormont and having to pay taxes to the british government i take it by your reckoning they aren,t bigots

as for lennon i haven,t all night to high light his misdemeanours

you defend o,neill and lennon and claim to be a rangers supporter let the real rangers fans decide

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Defending martin o neill and Neil lennon, surely the straw that broke the camels back.....

Is calling Rangers fans orange bastards not enough bigotry for you ? Why would you defend that and constantly lay into fans of your own team ?

Unfortunately, I think some posters prefer the infamy of the continual contrary opinion to actually looking at subjects in a reasoned fashion.

The Neil Lennon DOB issue proves the point of slewed media/authority coverage perfectly. Why any Rangers fan would want to suggest Lennon isn't a bigot is beyond me?

I can sometimes be a bit contrary myself, you may have noticed..... :ph34r: At least it is my honest opinion though. I have never met/spoke to/encountered online a Rangers fan who doesn't think Lennon is a scumbag and a bigot.

He spat on a Rangers scarf and has publicly stated how much he hates our club, who would even begin to defend that...... <cr>

Good luck getting an answer from that breed of fan.

They can never back up their opinion with anything worthy.

you shut it you tried to compare Martin O'neill and Kenny miller a few days ago....... :P;)

I hate Lennon more than I hate McGeady and I know he hates us.. so what.. I hate them equally as much.

The fact is he played for NI, something that a large % of people from NI would never do.

There is a difference imo.

can you tell me what well known players from n ireland who refused to play for n ireland at the same time o,neill and lennon played for n ireland?

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What I'm refusing to concede is that there is an 'orchestrated campaign' going on. For me that is a jump too far. I have no problem admitting (and getting annoyed at) specific instances where I feel we are being treated unfairly but as I replied to Bluedell last night I'm struggling to accept it's a conspiracy. I think we're confusing incompetence with strategy and in doing so we are in danger of becoming what we mock in others.

You're not opening your mind enough to the possible reasons that could be behind the symptoms Frankie's repeatedly highlighting imo. I suppose you consider it as completely irrelevant or just a coincidence that CFC employed as their Chairman, one of the country's most connected & powerful politicians? Maybe you think it's a conspiracy theory to suggest that it was by no means a mistake? I'm talking about a Football Club employing a man who was Neil Kinnock's adviser in the Labour party over 25 years ago & between then and going to CFC has either been in parliament or governmental positions, holding positions such as:-

  • Minister of State for Defence
  • Minister of State for Transport
  • Secretary of State for Scotland
  • Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
  • Minister without Portfolio and Labour Party Chairman
  • Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council
  • Secretary of State for Health
  • Secretary of State for Defence
  • Secretary of State for the Home Department (Home Secretary)

Nobody will EVER convince me that John Reid's appointment as chairman of CFC after a political career like that was any sort of coincidence or that since his appointment he hasn't been directly involved in the politics in Scotland leading to the issues Frankie is talking about. There are undoubted reasons that our club have been singled out as sectarian while CFC appear to be untouchable & Dr. John Reid is one of those reasons. Upon becoming Minister of State for Defence in '97, he wasn't given the task of helping write the 'Strategic Defence Review' for a laugh. As soon as that reptile of man was appointed as their Chairman I instantly knew there was something going on, something untoward & I'm 100% certain that my initial gut instinct was correct.

To those here who are saying 'keep politics & religion out of football', there's only one reply - TELL THAT TO CFC.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny you should post that topic. I have been typing out this spoof post which I was going to post for a piss take. In the end I decided not to post as I reckoned some folks wouldn,t have my weird sense of humour. Coincidence or what?

Attacks_on_us_pt.2.doc

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Minister of State for Defence

Minister of State for Transport

Secretary of State for Scotland

Secretary of State for Northern Ireland

Minister without Portfolio and Labour Party Chairman

Leader of the House of Commons and Lord President of the Council

Secretary of State for Health

Secretary of State for Defence

Secretary of State for the Home Department (Home Secretary)

This cunt reid should be hunted down like a dog, and so should blair, both dangerous ira sympathising scum that have put people in jobs to weaken our country, they must be investigated ? :sherlock:

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We need not make excuses about our Religion, it's our Protestant Country, we need not make excuses about flying the Union Flag, it's the Flag we lie under. We need not make excuses about Her Majesty The Queen, She is Head of State and of Church of OUR Nation. So if they don't like it they can leave, the sooner the better. :sherlock:

Then again BD i have a catholic workmate who says that this country was catholic way before it was protestant, he then argues thats Scotland was/is a catholic country, and us protestants are the ones who need to go home.

It was a pagan country before it was a catholic one. So maybe everyone exept them should go home? But to where? It's not as if we came to Scotland from Oireland a few years back after we misplaced our tatties :pipe:

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Well, I certainly wasn't expecting to get educated to this degree when I joined here.

here's to the 67 year old 'bigot'. I've only known you thirty seconds and you've already taught me things.

Wonderful post old man (kidding) - keep it up!

Cheers

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I was nearly disciplined at work the other week as some bead rattling c**t tried to tell me that the IRA were not terrorists, but a republican army standing up for Catholics against a foreign oppressor...

Couldnt believe the pish he was coming out with!

I have reasons for my opinions and i would like to think i could justify them to anyone but sometimes you just think f**k it!

This idea about the IRA being a State Governed 'Army' has always baffled me. Surely if they are a legitimate army and fighting, what they see as a 'legitimate' war, then it has to be backed by the Irish government. However, if the Irish government refuse to back the rogue intentions and actions of their citizens, then they HAVE TO be considered Terrorists!

Ain't fuckin' Rocket Surgery from what i can see.

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I was nearly disciplined at work the other week as some bead rattling c**t tried to tell me that the IRA were not terrorists, but a republican army standing up for Catholics against a foreign oppressor...

Couldnt believe the pish he was coming out with!

I have reasons for my opinions and i would like to think i could justify them to anyone but sometimes you just think f**k it!

This idea about the IRA being a State Governed 'Army' has always baffled me. Surely if they are a legitimate army and fighting, what they see as a 'legitimate' war, then it has to be backed by the Irish government. However, if the Irish government refuse to back the rogue intentions and actions of their citizens, then they HAVE TO be considered Terrorists!

Ain't fuckin' Rocket Surgery from what i can see.

they are on the same level as every other terrorist group in the world

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I was nearly disciplined at work the other week as some bead rattling c**t tried to tell me that the IRA were not terrorists, but a republican army standing up for Catholics against a foreign oppressor...

Couldnt believe the pish he was coming out with!

I have reasons for my opinions and i would like to think i could justify them to anyone but sometimes you just think f**k it!

This idea about the IRA being a State Governed 'Army' has always baffled me. Surely if they are a legitimate army and fighting, what they see as a 'legitimate' war, then it has to be backed by the Irish government. However, if the Irish government refuse to back the rogue intentions and actions of their citizens, then they HAVE TO be considered Terrorists!

Ain't fuckin' Rocket Surgery from what i can see.

they are on the same level as every other terrorist group in the world

who do you mean - the fighters/terrorists or the government.

at some stage a political decision has to be made at our end. if the irish government continually denounce terrorisom, yet cant control their own people and they continue to attack british citizenss, then surely there has to come a point when we say enough is enough. and im not talking about occupying northern ireland again - im talking about declaring war on ireland.

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I was nearly disciplined at work the other week as some bead rattling c**t tried to tell me that the IRA were not terrorists, but a republican army standing up for Catholics against a foreign oppressor...

Couldnt believe the pish he was coming out with!

I have reasons for my opinions and i would like to think i could justify them to anyone but sometimes you just think f**k it!

This idea about the IRA being a State Governed 'Army' has always baffled me. Surely if they are a legitimate army and fighting, what they see as a 'legitimate' war, then it has to be backed by the Irish government. However, if the Irish government refuse to back the rogue intentions and actions of their citizens, then they HAVE TO be considered Terrorists!

Ain't fuckin' Rocket Surgery from what i can see.

they are on the same level as every other terrorist group in the world

who do you mean - the fighters/terrorists or the government.

at some stage a political decision has to be made at our end. if the irish government continually denounce terrorisom, yet cant control their own people and they continue to attack british citizenss, then surely there has to come a point when we say enough is enough. and im not talking about occupying northern ireland again - im talking about declaring war on ireland.

what you talking about occupying n ireland again

n ireland is british because the MAJORITY OF ITS PEOPLE vote to remain british so there is no occupation.

as for the irish government they ignored terrorism for over 30 years and Britain done nothing about it and don,t forget the funding of the ira was mostly from irish american catholics with there misty eyes

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Frankie, whilst I can appreciate the reasons for your view, whether it be right or wrong, I think you are in danger of using the so-called 'conspiracy theory' as an excuse for reverting to the old ways. You rightly say the club/support has taken great steps to put our own house in order, the difference now to twenty years ago is marked, just asked some of the older posters whatever their opinion on the direction the club is taken. Most gers fans would accept that on occasion elements of our support do continue to let us down with their behaviour. Now by no means I'm I saying we are any worse/better than Celtic or anyone else, in fact thats where I see the problem. We love to be better than them, whether it's on the park, in Europe or at having the best fans. But by constantly comparing our behaviour we are in danger of stagnating. We reach a point where we do so much, i.e. banning TBB, TFS, FTP chants, etc. etc., and we don't see this change embraced by our east end neighbours, so we, perhaps rightly, think we are better than them. But that ignores the problems we still have. Yes there will always be elements of bigoted behaviour, but does that mean the club should condone it?

So by thinking that they are just out to get us, causes resentment amongst the fans. It makes us think if they can do it, why can't we. It perhaps encourages protest behaviour, and I'm convinced TFS was in direct response to this. It also shifts the focus away from the good we have done and the work still to be done, onto a supposed conspiracy theory. Even if, and it's a big IF, there was a conspiracy theory, it doesn't make any of the reported behaviour right. Bigotry is still bigotry whether its reported fairly or not.

At the end of the day, it doesn't concern me if they are out to get us. Let them stoop to cowardly tactics whilst doing nothing to change their IRA chanting ways. Time will show who the real embracers of social change are, and I'm convinced years from now the headlines will be different. Rangers will reap the benefits from the work we have done and must continue to do. The next big step for me is social education. Take the message to the classrooms, to the kids, and reap the benefits in future generations.

I'm all for freedom of speech, and by no means do I believe that people should be TOLD what to think, but I don't think its an elaborate claim that education generally removes discrimination, sectarianism. Part of the problem for me is in the words, 'The Sash My Father Wore'. Parents teach their kids beliefs and values, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but more importantly what we need to teach our kids is to think for themselves. Challenge what you are taught and come to your own decisions. Don't wear your fathers sash, wear your own. I've more respect for a bigot who has reached their beliefs through their own thinking, rather than someone who spews bile taught to them since childhood with no understanding of what they are saying.

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I'm all for freedom of speech, and by no means do I believe that people should be TOLD what to think, but I don't think its an elaborate claim that education generally removes discrimination, sectarianism. Part of the problem for me is in the words, 'The Sash My Father Wore'. Parents teach their kids beliefs and values, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but more importantly what we need to teach our kids is to think for themselves. Challenge what you are taught and come to your own decisions. Don't wear your fathers sash, wear your own. I've more respect for a bigot who has reached their beliefs through their own thinking, rather than someone who spews bile taught to them since childhood with no understanding of what they are saying.

A bigot can not be someone who sings the sash! why dont you understand it has been proven it is not a sectarian song! its is an orange song. It does not make you a bigot. nor does singing many of the other songs we sing! We are told they are bigoted because thats what the PAPErs want people to believe. Its embarrasing to me that our own FANS get caught up in this shite and if our own FANS believe were bigoted what fucking chance do we have

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I'm all for freedom of speech, and by no means do I believe that people should be TOLD what to think, but I don't think its an elaborate claim that education generally removes discrimination, sectarianism. Part of the problem for me is in the words, 'The Sash My Father Wore'. Parents teach their kids beliefs and values, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but more importantly what we need to teach our kids is to think for themselves. Challenge what you are taught and come to your own decisions. Don't wear your fathers sash, wear your own. I've more respect for a bigot who has reached their beliefs through their own thinking, rather than someone who spews bile taught to them since childhood with no understanding of what they are saying.

A bigot can not be someone who sings the sash! why dont you understand it has been proven it is not a sectarian song! its is an orange song. It does not make you a bigot. nor does singing many of the other songs we sing! We are told they are bigoted because thats what the PAPErs want people to believe. Its embarrasing to me that our own FANS get caught up in this shite and if our own FANS believe were bigoted what fucking chance do we have

I think he's using it as an analogy not literally.

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I'm all for freedom of speech, and by no means do I believe that people should be TOLD what to think, but I don't think its an elaborate claim that education generally removes discrimination, sectarianism. Part of the problem for me is in the words, 'The Sash My Father Wore'. Parents teach their kids beliefs and values, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but more importantly what we need to teach our kids is to think for themselves. Challenge what you are taught and come to your own decisions. Don't wear your fathers sash, wear your own. I've more respect for a bigot who has reached their beliefs through their own thinking, rather than someone who spews bile taught to them since childhood with no understanding of what they are saying.

A bigot can not be someone who sings the sash! why dont you understand it has been proven it is not a sectarian song! its is an orange song. It does not make you a bigot. nor does singing many of the other songs we sing! We are told they are bigoted because thats what the PAPErs want people to believe. Its embarrasing to me that our own FANS get caught up in this shite and if our own FANS believe were bigoted what fucking chance do we have

I never said it was, but some of the stuff that is sung is clearly bigoted.

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I'm all for freedom of speech, and by no means do I believe that people should be TOLD what to think, but I don't think its an elaborate claim that education generally removes discrimination, sectarianism. Part of the problem for me is in the words, 'The Sash My Father Wore'. Parents teach their kids beliefs and values, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but more importantly what we need to teach our kids is to think for themselves. Challenge what you are taught and come to your own decisions. Don't wear your fathers sash, wear your own. I've more respect for a bigot who has reached their beliefs through their own thinking, rather than someone who spews bile taught to them since childhood with no understanding of what they are saying.

A bigot can not be someone who sings the sash! why dont you understand it has been proven it is not a sectarian song! its is an orange song. It does not make you a bigot. nor does singing many of the other songs we sing! We are told they are bigoted because thats what the PAPErs want people to believe. Its embarrasing to me that our own FANS get caught up in this shite and if our own FANS believe were bigoted what fucking chance do we have

I never said it was, but some of the stuff that is sung is clearly bigoted.

Like what ?

Let me give you a starter:

Sure l'm an Ulster Orangeman , from Erin's isle I came,

To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,

And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,

That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!

Chorus:

It is old but it is beautiful, and its colours they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.

My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore,

And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore.

Chorus

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

Chorus

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,

We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum

And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore

As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

I fail to see any bigotry in that song.

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I'm all for freedom of speech, and by no means do I believe that people should be TOLD what to think, but I don't think its an elaborate claim that education generally removes discrimination, sectarianism. Part of the problem for me is in the words, 'The Sash My Father Wore'. Parents teach their kids beliefs and values, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but more importantly what we need to teach our kids is to think for themselves. Challenge what you are taught and come to your own decisions. Don't wear your fathers sash, wear your own. I've more respect for a bigot who has reached their beliefs through their own thinking, rather than someone who spews bile taught to them since childhood with no understanding of what they are saying.

A bigot can not be someone who sings the sash! why dont you understand it has been proven it is not a sectarian song! its is an orange song. It does not make you a bigot. nor does singing many of the other songs we sing! We are told they are bigoted because thats what the PAPErs want people to believe. Its embarrasing to me that our own FANS get caught up in this shite and if our own FANS believe were bigoted what fucking chance do we have

I never said it was, but some of the stuff that is sung is clearly bigoted.

Like what ?

Let me give you a starter:

Sure l'm an Ulster Orangeman , from Erin's isle I came,

To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,

And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,

That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!

Chorus:

It is old but it is beautiful, and its colours they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.

My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore,

And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore.

Chorus

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

Chorus

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,

We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum

And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore

As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

I fail to see any bigotry in that song.

I think you missed by previous post.

I never said The Sash was bigoted.

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