The riddle of Tom Vallance's badge.

[caseyjones 3,009]

I would doubt that mate.

How about it being the SFA crest being worn for the photograph? Man of the match?

The truth is out there.

[jack1690 793]

There have been a few threads where comment is made on Tom Vallance's badge in the photo below. It's almost certain that it's due to his status as a Scotland international.

The only mystery seems to be why our first international player Moses McNiell doesn't wear one on his strip.

In this Vale of Leven team photo, taken after the epic win over Rangers in the 1877 Scottish Cup Final, which needed 3 games to get a winner, you can see McGregor, Ferguson, McDougall, and Baird in the front row all sporting lion rampant badges. All were Scottish internationals. (Paton and McIntyre weren't capped until after this photo was taken).

McLintock in the photo at the back, is also a Scottish international, but he seems to have a version of the Royal Scottish coat of arms (below) on his jersey for some reason.

Maybe someone has a theory on Moses not sporting a badge (when it seems to be the norm for a Scotland player), and why VOL's McLintock has the coat of arms?

I think McLintock is wearing the scotland top of the previous year & the players in front are wearing the top of that year, with the others just wearing their club top? Just a theory.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

CM

The plot thickens !!

Bamboozled if I know now

[mclovin9091 1,402]

A Queens park player captaining Scotland, oh how times have changed.

Aye and they also appeared in the 1884 and 1885 Fa Cup finals, being beaten by Blackburn on both occasions. In 1884 the won both the scottish and charity cups

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

CM perhaps did any of those players for both Scotland & England ?

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

I love these threads

[Colonel Mustard 380]

CM perhaps did any of those players for both Scotland & England ?

After a quick check, it doesn't look like it D'Art.

As a matter of interest (and unconnected to your post), Mr McDougall of VOL was the first man to hit a hat trick for Scotland in a 7-2 victory over England...McNiel brother Henry also got 2 in that game.

[Colonel Mustard 380]

Aye and they also appeared in the 1884 and 1885 Fa Cup finals, being beaten by Blackburn on both occasions. In 1884 the won both the scottish and charity cups

Queen's Park won the Scottish Cup 10 times in the early years, along with 8 Charity Cups.

Their fall from grace began when they refused to join the Scottish League, as they did not want to play against professional teams.

It took 10 years before they finally gave in and were accepted into the League set up, but never recovered their status as Scotland's premier club.

Of course, QP can proudly proclaim that they still have never paid a player a wage to this day.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Queen's Park won the Scottish Cup 10 times in the early years, along with 8 Charity Cups.

Their fall from grace began when they refused to join the Scottish League, as they did not want to play against professional teams.

It took 10 years before they finally gave in and were accepted into the League set up, but never recovered their status as Scotland's premier club.

Of course, QP can proudly proclaim that they still have never paid a player a wage to this day.

So can Hearts :lol:

[Colonel Mustard 380]

So can Hearts :lol:

Oooft. Right in the balls with that.

[GMac 1,405]

Aye and they also appeared in the 1884 and 1885 Fa Cup finals, being beaten by Blackburn on both occasions. In 1884 the won both the scottish and charity cups

Also lay claim to having the worlds first black footballer and first black internationalist. Robert Watson.

[harlands plater 16,990]

Could the players sporting the Scotland badge be current internationals for that season?

[McBoyd 355]

where you gettign these pics from mustard, ancient programmes or paper clippings?

http://rangers1872.blogspot.com/

[Johnstone Burgh 1,643]

Vale of Leven in a later picture, with 2 of their players sporting a different lion rampant badge...McLintock, who previously had the coat of arms on his shirt, and new cap Baird.

Looks like the Millwall badge

[GMac 1,405]

Could it be that Tom Vallance is the captain. The lion on the badge is the Rangers Lion rather than the Scottish lion which is thinner. Whats the history of the Blue Star? Thought it may have connections with shipping. Great thread. Love this stuff

[Colonel Mustard 380]

Could it be that Tom Vallance is the captain. The lion on the badge is the Rangers Lion rather than the Scottish lion which is thinner. Whats the history of the Blue Star? Thought it may have connections with shipping. Great thread. Love this stuff

How a lion rampant looks is just a matter of design. The badge is almost certainly to do with him being a Scottish international.

The star is an emblem of the Clydesdale Rowing Club of which Vallance was a member, but could be related to Swindon Rangers Rugby Club, from where Moses got our name...they played in white shirts with a star on the breast.

[caseyjones 3,009]

Could it be that Tom Vallance is the captain. The lion on the badge is the Rangers Lion rather than the Scottish lion which is thinner. Whats the history of the Blue Star? Thought it may have connections with shipping. Great thread. Love this stuff

Clyde Amateur Rowing Club

Rangers Football Club

For a long time, Clyde ARC had no idea that there was a possible link to Rangers FC. Instead the club was aware only of a brief and uncategorised link to Celtic Football Club, as the minutes from 1905 (tbc) note a donation from the Parkhead club to Clyde ARC of £5. In those days, this was a lot of money however the minutes do not note for what purpose this was donated or what provoked such generosity.

The link to Rangers FC, the "other" Glaswegian football club, (unless you like Firhill), was only recently uncovered by Gary Ralston in his research for his book: The Gallant Pioneers: Rangers 1872.

Since time immemorial, in a vein similar to the rivalry between Rangers and Celtic, our nearest and dearest rowing rivals - Clydesdale Amateur Rowing Club, understood that members of their club had founded Rangers FC. This was thought to be evidenced by the Clydesdale (1865-1900) minutes which indicated that rowers from Clydesdale had been engaging in the new sport of association football, to the detriment of their rowing commitments. However, on inspection of the minutes, Ralston found that unfortunately none of the 4 accepted founders of Rangers FC (Moses and Peter Mc'Neil, William McBeath and Peter Campbell) are listed within the Clydesdale membership lists during that period.

Furthermore the history of Rangers, by John Allan, is similarly vague, again noting that the founders had been rowers, rather than that they were members of any specific club.

Instead Ralston's research indicated that it was in fact members of Clyde ARC who were responsible for the founding of Ranger FC. This is evidenced through the 5th "founding member" of Rangers: Tom Vallance.

Vallance was quite the athlete and competed in various sports with success during his early life. Ralston's research uncovered an article from the Scottish Athletic Journal in 1885, profiling Vallance and mentioning his membership of Clyde Amateur Rowing Club.

It is quite possible that not all of the founding members were members of the same rowing club, however another interesting indicator that it was members of Clyde ARC and not Clydesdale ARC, who founded Rangers FC, is found within the symbol of Clyde - the Clyde Star. The six pointed, light blue star is the official symbol of Clyde ARC and appears on the club flag, club badge, club rowing kit and is referenced in the club constitution. The first known picture of the Rangers squad shows the 1877 team, resplendent in white shirts, with a light blue, six pointed star on the left breast. According to Ralston, the presence of the star was an interesting puzzle to many Rangers enthusiasts. On uncovering the link between Vallance and Clyde ARC, and the official symbol of Clyde ARC, the mystery is arguably solved.

A final note on this saga, is something that is forgotten in both clubs' keenness to lay claim to such a link. Sadly the founders of Rangers FC chose to leave the sport of rowing for the greener grass of association football. Whichever club these boys hailed from, the world of rowing could not keep them.

http://www.clydearc.org.uk/joomla/history/RFC

[Colonel Mustard 380]

Looks like the Millwall badge

There are many clubs who have a lion rampant in their badge, and several of them have Rangers connections, like this one in New Zealand.

[GMac 1,405]

How a lion rampant looks is just a matter of design. The badge is almost certainly to do with him being a Scottish international.

The star is an emblem of the Clydesdale Rowing Club of which Vallance was a member, but could be related to Swindon Rangers Rugby Club, from where Moses got our name...they played in white shirts with a star on the breast.

Cheers. I was half hoping that our founders were members of the Illuminati and the Blue Star was their symbol. I genuinely thought it was to do with the Blue Star Line shipping CO. But whatever , bring back the the Blue Star. The tims will have any number of conspiracy theories. Fuck the future, think of the past.

[caseyjones 3,009]

How a lion rampant looks is just a matter of design. The badge is almost certainly to do with him being a Scottish international.

The star is an emblem of the Clydesdale Rowing Club of which Vallance was a member, but could be related to Swindon Rangers Rugby Club, from where Moses got our name...they played in white shirts with a star on the breast.

It's Clyde, not Clydesdale, mate.

[Colonel Mustard 380]

It's Clyde, not Clydesdale, mate.

I think it is now, but when Vallance was a member it was Clydesdale.

I prepare to stand corrected.

[GMac 1,405]

Thanks Casey Jones. Great link.

[caseyjones 3,009]

I think it is now, but when Vallance was a member it was Clydesdale.

I prepare to stand corrected.

Two separate clubs, but it was originally thought that it was Clydesdale that they had been members of.

[Colonel Mustard 380]

It's Clyde, not Clydesdale, mate.

Hmm. Just reading a link, and you could be right, although it seems to be unclear what the correct story is.

I'm going to have another look to see if there's something conclusive, but it looks like you are correct that Vallance was definitely a member of Clyde and not Clydesdale.

Apologies.

[Colonel Mustard 380]

Two separate clubs, but it was originally thought that it was Clydesdale that they had been members of.

As in my post above, it seems that Vallance IS on the books as a member of Clyde, but that there isn't any hard evidence of him or the other boys being members of either Clyde or Clydesdale, as was thought.