Sellout Salmond

[thegummy 4,472]

You're kidding yourself if you think the UK calls the shots anymore.

We just kiss America's ass and do whatever they want, including getting dragged into their illegal wars.

Pretending we have a 'special relationship'.. Israel has far more influence on the US than we do, and Obama apparently dislikes Britain because of our colonial history in Kenya - he sent back a statue of Churchill that was in the White house.

And I do think a Scottish Government would represent us better.

Because their loyalty is to this country first and we would get the government we vote for.

50 MPs out of 600 in London is an insignificance.

You missed by far the most important part of my post - the UK is one of the 5 UNSC Veto nations! America and dozens of allies can try and start any war they want and a single veto from the UK would stop it.

And your 50/600 is silly. The 50 don't represent the whole of Scotland. Each one represents their constituency just as every other MP in the country (which is called the United Kingdom btw) does.

It seems anyone who is pro-independence first decides they want Scotland to be independent based on emotion (bloody mel gibson...) and then think of reasons.

[trueblue72 8]

You missed by far the most important part of my post - the UK is one of the 5 UNSC Veto nations! America and dozens of allies can try and start any war they want and a single veto from the UK would stop it.

And your 50/600 is silly. The 50 don't represent the whole of Scotland. Each one represents their constituency just as every other MP in the country (which is called the United Kingdom btw) does.

It seems anyone who is pro-independence first decides they want Scotland to be independent based on emotion (bloody mel gibson...) and then think of reasons.

The UK isn't going to be using any veto without the say-so of the USA.

And the security council isn't the only decision making body in the world.

We would still be in Europe, much of whose laws override the UK.

And it looks like we will be staying in NATO going by what the papers say.

So I don't see whats so great about basking in the past glory of the UK.

Pretending we are still a big international world power.

What good does it do us, when we aren't seeing any practical benefits here ??

When half of Glasgow lives in poverty in an oil rich country, and all the power

and wealth and good jobs are sucked down to the South ??

I would rather have a smaller, more prosperous country within Britain and Europe,

with a real government that has some real powers to boost our economy right here.

Not this pocket money parliament we have at the moment.

[trueblue72 8]

...

And your 50/600 is silly. The 50 don't represent the whole of Scotland. Each one represents their constituency just as every other MP in the country (which is called the United Kingdom btw) does...

You're right, our 50 MPs in London don't do a good job of representing Scotland as a whole.

They have little influence even if they wanted to.

All they seem to care about is their own party and career, not what is good for this country.

I remember the labour MP last month getting all flustered on some debate show.

Wouldn't give a straight answer when asked if she would prefer Scotland being governed by the Tories in London,

or having a real Scottish labour government in an independent Scotland.

[Mr Struth 137]

Salmons dislikes the sovereingty and was asked to leave an officers mess at an Air Force base in Jockland for refusing to stand up for a toast to HM.

I'm sure the fish didn't mind.

As for Salmond, that statement is bollocks.

[thegummy 4,472]

The UK isn't going to be using any veto without the say-so of the USA.

Where do you get anything close to that information from?

So I don't see whats so great about basking in the past glory of the UK.

See, that's what some nationalists don't get; it's nothing to do with historical pride. It's what's best for the whole population of the UK today.

What good does it do us, when we aren't seeing any practical benefits here?

Because Scottish independence won't solve any if those problems either - they're happening in numerous countries.

When half of Glasgow lives in poverty in an oil rich country

Do you think if Scotland became independent, they'd nationalize the oil and spend the profits on public services?

all the power and wealth and good jobs are sucked down to the South

That is because London is many times more prosperous than any city in Scotland. Everyone who used to live in Scotland and can get a job in London and wants to does. Obviously they would do exactly the same regardless if Scotland was a separate country. Do you think they'd put up border fences and stop people moving?

real powers to boost our economy right here.

I understand this "grass is always greener" attitude. Things are terrible economically these days and there's the hope that if there is radical change it'll all be for the better. The sad truth is that it's fairly likely to stay roughly the same and may even get worse.

[Mr Struth 137]

Any bear voting for these Jacobite cunts wants a hefty kick in the balls.

Love to see you try.

[IainB 599]

I. Once our oil is finished, we are fucked. Dont kid yourself that we wont get cast out in to the wilderness by our great "friends" from the south.

Exactly once the oil is gone were fucked doubly more so if we break up the union the Oil money is the only thing that will support us if we gain independance. There is not enough industry in Scotland to support the country, and if we want it then accept Chinese wages and working conditions, lower taxes I saw someone say, okay lower taxes how the fuck are we going to pay for all our freebies? Running up huge defecits oh aye is that not waht started the great depression. Governments dont create wealth they only re-distribute it and re-distribute too much of a companies money and they are leaving mighty quick. My great great great great uncle was the leading figure in the union of the parliaments Lord Earl of Glasgow, and yes a proddy, his son almost lost the family fortune between betting on the horses at Ayr and building Episcopalian churches in Scotland.

British By Birth

Scottish by the Grace of God

Canadian by choice

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

Once our oil is finished, we are fucked. Dont kid yourself that we wont get cast out in to the wilderness by our great "friends" from the south.

Im not saying england will cut us off totally when the oil runs dry, but im sure they will be much happier to give us independence when it does.

Nice.

Which is it? Cast out - no kidding - earlier, but now not to be cut off totally?

I thought the whole idea of independence would be to ensure being 'cut off'. Wouldn't it?

Are you seeking an entirely new and radical non-independence in a slightly independent way of sorts? Perhaps keep the pound and the Queen and maybe also...oh wait...

Support for the SNP's wannabe unilateral destruction of the UK is crumbling - as well it should. Even on the most fundamental of levels it's a disaster for fat Eck and his merry men.

The Euro for currency - well? It would be easier to sell sand to the locals in Arabia.

The Pound for currency - well! That's not independence at all.

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

DP of above when I wanted this to be posted.

Still, for clarity I thought I'd call the SNP HQ in Edinburgh for some answers on the currency.

Call 1 to the number published on the SNP website provided this result:

Q - What currency is planned for post independence in the event of success?

A - "We will retain the pound."

Q - Has this been agreed with the UK government?

A - "We don't need to."

Q - Sorry, the SNP can make that decision without a UK agreement?

A - "Yes."

You can imagine my surprise! For further details they gave me their press office number to call.

Q - What currency is planned for post independence in the event of success?

A - "We expect to retain Sterling."

Q - Has this been agreed with the UK government?

A - "It will be by a process of negotiation."

This is the SNP at work in July 2012 - and they want to destroy the UK and run Scotland.

I wouldn't trust them with a simple question. Who would?

[Comeoffit 152]

Nice.

Which is it? Cast out - no kidding - earlier, but now not to be cut off totally?

I thought the whole idea of independence would be to ensure being 'cut off'. Wouldn't it?

Are you seeking an entirely new and radical non-independence in a slightly independent way of sorts? Perhaps keep the pound and the Queen and maybe also...oh wait...

Support for the SNP's wannabe unilateral destruction of the UK is crumbling - as well it should. Even on the most fundamental of levels it's a disaster for fat Eck and his merry men.

The Euro for currency - well? It would be easier to sell sand to the locals in Arabia.

The Pound for currency - well! That's not independence at all.

We could go round in circles about the oil thing for eternity if you like. Doesnt change the fact they are stealing the revenue from our waters. Waters i might add, that they have stolen 6000 miles of.

What you have to realise is that countries that are colonised eventually shake off their masters. Its only a matter of time. History proves this throughout the entire world. For what its worth, i dont think that salmond wants a full independence from the UK. I think he wants his cake and to eat it. Which at the moment, he is doing a very good job of.

Scotland is a much better place to live since the SNP had a mandate to actually change things. Im sure you wont deny that.

[Comeoffit 152]

DP of above when I wanted this to be posted.

Still, for clarity I thought I'd call the SNP HQ in Edinburgh for some answers on the currency.

Call 1 to the number published on the SNP website provided this result:

Q - What currency is planned for post independence in the event of success?

A - "We will retain the pound."

Q - Has this been agreed with the UK government?

A - "We don't need to."

Q - Sorry, the SNP can make that decision without a UK agreement?

A - "Yes."

You can imagine my surprise! For further details they gave me their press office number to call.

Q - What currency is planned for post independence in the event of success?

A - "We expect to retain Sterling."

Q - Has this been agreed with the UK government?

A - "It will be by a process of negotiation."

This is the SNP at work in July 2012 - and they want to destroy the UK and run Scotland.

I wouldn't trust them with a simple question. Who would?

Come on Moses. Would you trust any politician. Its not just the snp that talk shite and bend the truth. I could probably phone any party and pull the same trick that you have just done.

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

Come on Moses. Would you trust any politician. Its not just the snp that talk shite and bend the truth. I could probably phone any party and pull the same trick that you have just done.

It wasn't a trick. It was a question. Of the most basic and yet fundamentally important nature.

I'm not responsible for the ludicrous responses in any sense whatsoever - all the work of the SNP.

[trueblue72 8]

...Governments dont create wealth they only re-distribute it..

Sorry, that's Bullshit.

Governments can lay the groundwork to enable businesses to thrive in all sorts of ways.

Transport and infrastructure, security, tax breaks, control over key industries etc

It helps if a country is rich in natural resources in the first place.

And doesn't give its revenues away like Scotland does, just to get 9% back.

Did the Norwegian Government create wealth by creating Statoil , or investing their energy revenues in their huge pension fund?

They now own around 2% of all stocks and shares in Europe and America.

Which will be providing BILLIONS in wealth for future generations long after the oil runs out.

Is that not a case of a government creating MASSIVE wealth?

It's just depressing to see some of the attitude here..

That London and the south gets all the money and power.. and we should just emigrate to get a good job..

And just accept it because we are too poor and useless and need to be subsidised etc..

What a crock of shite, when we could be a small rich country if we wanted.

Anyway, this should maybe be in the politics forum, not the bears den.

It wasn't Alec Salmond who fucked our club at the end of the day.

It was HMRC who forced administration and started this chain reaction

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

For what its worth, i dont think that salmond wants a full independence from the UK. I think he wants his cake and to eat it.

I'll be sure to make that very point the next time one of their door-to-door campaigners disturbs my peace.

The last time one called I asked how they intend to fund the relocation of British citizens who wanted to remain living in Great Britain.

Apparently, being expatriated against my will from the nation of my birth is not something the SNP have plans to resolve. Although, in fairness, it was clear they hadn't even thought about it.

Current UK citizens who want to remain as such haven't been considered. Not discussed, not even thought about. Which will be a cause for concern for the hundreds of thousands of English people living north of the border I'd have thought

[Comeoffit 152]

Sorry, that's Bullshit.

Governments can lay the groundwork to enable businesses to thrive in all sorts of ways.

Transport and infrastructure, security, tax breaks, control over key industries etc

It helps if a country is rich in natural resources in the first place.

And doesn't give its revenues away like Scotland does, just to get 9% back.

Did the Norwegian Government create wealth by creating Statoil , or investing their energy revenues in their huge pension fund?

They now own around 2% of all stocks and shares in Europe and America.

Which will be providing BILLIONS in wealth for future generations long after the oil runs out.

Is that not a case of a government creating MASSIVE wealth?

It's just depressing to see some of the attitude here..

That London and the south gets all the money and power.. and we should just emigrate to get a good job..

And just accept it because we are too poor and useless and need to be subsidised etc..

What a crock of shite, when we could be a small rich country if we wanted.

Anyway, this should maybe be in the politics forum, not the bears den.

It wasn't Alec Salmond who fucked our club at the end of the day.

It was HMRC who forced administration and started this chain reaction

Something that people always seem to forget in these arguments. Tax man with head offices in london uses us as a guinea pig to test the law, and in the process sends us in to liquidation and made us almost unbuyable for 3 years. If i was paranoid and anti-english, i would say that this reminds me of the poll tax. No unionist can ever answer the poll tax question. Why were British citizens treated differently based on which part of the UK they lived in? Yet we let it happen again with HMRC. Welcome to Scotland under the UK.

[Comeoffit 152]

I'll be sure to make that very point the next time one of their door-to-door campaigners disturbs my peace.

The last time one called I asked how they intend to fund the relocation of British citizens who wanted to remain living in Great Britain.

Apparently, being expatriated against my will from the nation of my birth is not something the SNP have plans to resolve. Although, in fairness, it was clear they hadn't even thought about it.

Current UK citizens who want to remain as such haven't been considered. Not discussed, not even thought about. Which will be a cause for concern for the hundreds of thousands of English people living north of the border I'd have thought

Behave. Its a change in the political landscape. Its not the start of civil war, or ethnic cleansing. People will still be free to live on any part of the British isles ala european union laws. If a Scottish person feels so oppressed, no one is stopping them moving to england.

As for the english that live here, i honestly couldnt care less about them or their opinions on how my country should be run. There is more important things for the snp to think about than people being over sensitive to change.

[trueblue72 8]

We will still be British after independence anyway.

Britain is an island and we will still have the union of the crowns.

It's the unequal political set-up of UK that is a problem, not friends and family within these islands.

If we got a better deal within the UK, where we paid a contribution for defense and foreign embassies,

then maybe a lot of people would accept that. But that's not on the table.

Nothing anti-English about it. In fact we will probably get on far better if we gain independence.

I think the 'anyone-but-England' attitude at sports, will change into one of friendly neighbours.

Because we will see ourselves more as equals, rather than have to endure all this subsidy junkie nonsense.

[MosesMcNeil 1,664]

As for the english that live here, i honestly couldnt care less about them or their opinions on how my country should be run.

I think you might be in for a shock - they have a democratic right to an opinion and a vote on their country.

Their country, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, values these rights. Something I've learned - as you have voiced so candidly - the SNP honestly couldn't less about.

And how interesting you suggest this isn't to considered as ethnic cleansing when, earlier, you were waxing lyrical about Scotland being colonised.

Much like another of your claims that we would be cast out which quickly evolved to become a not really cast out at all claim when challenged.

Any other about turns to offer? You sound a lot like, well, an SNP canvasser - devoid of ideas or even basic honesty.

[OneDavidCooper 2,505]

I never said the UK was occupied, I said Scotland was. Ive stated why i think its better for us to be independent. Ive said nothing "anti english", or racist. You have the typical "unionist" argument, which is no argument. Better to just call me Hamish and a racist which doesnt really convince why the union is good idea.

Whats your answer to the poll tax they inflicted on us before it went live in england? Is that all British citizens being treated as equals? You dont realise how good you have it in Scotland compared to england now, and its all thanks to the SNP. Free tuition, free car parking in hospitals, free prescriptions, someone actually fighting for their countries rights, instead of feeding off the scraps of westminsters table.

Time to stop living in the past. If shitty little countries like Lithuania and Latvia etc can do it, why cant we? The empire has fallen. Get over it.

You really are puddled. :lol:

[rab wilson 3,246]

Have you asked Nicola why she has done nothing to help a business in her constituency?

Have you asked your idol why he has done nothing?

You are every bit as bad as the wankers

All the shit we've been through and are going through with no help from government or constituent MSP's and you're perfectly happy to vote them back in.

By fuck he must laugh his head off when the votes come in from you and your ilk

can't rep from iPhone amigo, but that is exactly how me and my family see it. Fuckin prick the geezer and his party. How any bear can vote for these cunts is totally beyond me and mine.fuckin independent Scotland? Dicks. You can't even look after your biggest, most successful institution

And biggest export. How any bear can vote for the cunt who plastered his face all over Ssn because we had 3 players sent off in a game against the mhanks , then welched back into his pit when he really had to stand up and be counted . I'm convinced Murray would have won Wimbledon, and blue nose warren would have won the Scottish open without this wank sitting there preparing his braveheart speech. Fuck all the heirarchy in Scotland. You let all bears down big time. Stick your independence up your already blasted anal canal. Wankers the lot of ye snp.

No Surrender

Rab

[thegummy 4,472]

Exactly once the oil is gone were fucked doubly more so if we break up the union the Oil money is the only thing that will support us if we gain independance. There is not enough industry in Scotland to support the country, and if we want it then accept Chinese wages and working conditions, lower taxes I saw someone say, okay lower taxes how the fuck are we going to pay for all our freebies? Running up huge defecits oh aye is that not waht started the great depression. Governments dont create wealth they only re-distribute it and re-distribute too much of a companies money and they are leaving mighty quick. My great great great great uncle was the leading figure in the union of the parliaments Lord Earl of Glasgow, and yes a proddy, his son almost lost the family fortune between betting on the horses at Ayr and building Episcopalian churches in Scotland.

British By Birth

Scottish by the Grace of God

Canadian by choice

Thank you Iain! I was really starting to think the only people on here vocal about politics are those who don't even know the basics.

What I find hilarious? The last place I'd expect a bunch of Jacobites who know very little about economics arguing against the union was a Rangers forum!

I thought I'd stumbled into Bairds!

[chepooka 126]

We will still be British after independence anyway.

Yes, that was certainly the experience in the Republic of Ireland

[trueblue72 8]

Yes, that was certainly the experience in the Republic of Ireland

Britain is an island with 3 countries in it.

Last time I looked there was a big chunk of water between us and Ireland.

We would still have the union of the crowns, and all the same friends and relatives down south.

And free trade under Europe.

Its the political union within Britain that lets Scotland down.

All those going on that we don't have the industry to support ourselves.

Well if you believe that, it is the union that got us into that situation..

[trueblue72 8]

I don't hand over my pay packet to my neighbour every week and ask him to spend my money for me.

Independence is about having more power to make your own decisions.

Personally I think that's a good thing.

[legalbeagle 3,734]

Sorry, that's Bullshit.

Governments can lay the groundwork to enable businesses to thrive in all sorts of ways.

Transport and infrastructure, security, tax breaks, control over key industries etc

It helps if a country is rich in natural resources in the first place.

And doesn't give its revenues away like Scotland does, just to get 9% back.

Did the Norwegian Government create wealth by creating Statoil , or investing their energy revenues in their huge pension fund?

They now own around 2% of all stocks and shares in Europe and America.

Which will be providing BILLIONS in wealth for future generations long after the oil runs out.

Is that not a case of a government creating MASSIVE wealth?

It's just depressing to see some of the attitude here..

That London and the south gets all the money and power.. and we should just emigrate to get a good job..

And just accept it because we are too poor and useless and need to be subsidised etc..

What a crock of shite, when we could be a small rich country if we wanted.

Anyway, this should maybe be in the politics forum, not the bears den.

It wasn't Alec Salmond who fucked our club at the end of the day.

It was HMRC who forced administration and started this chain reaction

The scary thing is how many people believe the SNP economic nonsense, and if this independence nonsense happened, there would be no way back when it all ends in tears.

Let's see, is there any parallel situation where some smaller partners thought the could dump the big partner, and after it happened were left in a huge panic over finances?

How much of the debt is Scotland going to take?

(PS, the way the whole of Scotland is now, I am so glad I left 9 years ago)