What do we Really Stand For

[bauba30 1]

It is an interesting question - what do we stand for? or to put another way, what all in our long history has made us great?

To me, greatness is all-encompassing. It is something that everyone knows and can agree on, something that even supporters of your closest enemies can look at and and agree to praise.

My story is the same as most fans. i was brought up in a family of Rangers fans, from the age of about 4 I was regailed of stories of legends passed. My grandfather had taken the trip every week from Fettercairn to watch the Rangers play at Ibrox and back then, that was some undertaking for a man of his means. But he would tell me about about watching Alan Morton, Davie Meiklejohn and later on, his favorite, George Young. Or 'Geordie' to my grandad.

Grandad didn't speak much, until you mentioned the Rangers, then try stopping him. he could recite the starting 11 for every season from the mid 20s up to the mid 90s. Amazing devotion to the club.

My mother would tell stories of initially being dragged on these trips as a young girl by grandad and could talk for hours about the teams of the 60s.

My dad, well, he had his faults, but he loved Rangers. For him, the team of the late 70s was the team for him. He loved Colin Stein, Greig, and DJ but mostly for him, he loved watching the great wingers that we had a tradition for playing. A tradition we have kinda went away from I am sad to say.

The point is, I was brought up on stories of football players. A picture was built up over those initial years of greatness over time. Greatness on the field, of players who dug deep when it counted and a team that played football a certain way. A team that were winners but who won with style.

So I was hooked. From a very early age (about 6 or 7 I think) I would get nothing for Xmas or my birthday except Rangers books. Old books, news book, but books that were the filling in the Rangers sandwiches that my family had been feeding me. i couldn't read enough about the legends we had been so fortunate to have wear the jersey.

So to me, it was always about the players. Still is to this day.

The alternate argument is one that we stand for someting more than football. That we are a protestant, British Club with old time values, linked to the Union etc etc. No doubt in my mind we are or have been all of these, yet to me they are not what make us great. They may make us unique in a way, though you will find clubs all over the world with links to local issues, like the clubs in the Basque region in Spain for example.

But what is our identity, what makes us great? If we were the same club with the same values and links down the years, but had been a mid table side all that time, like a Hibs, Killie etc, would we be called a great club?

Or is it that because of our unrivalled success down the years, the 51 league titles, that jealousy sets in with other clubs and we are thus judged by different criteria? I really believe that this is the case. That it is our success over the long haul that has lifted us from the abyss and onto a different plain from the rest of Scottish football. That it is the great players in our history that alone were responsible for that. And that it is those players and their achievements on the field of play that ultimately, have made Rangers great.

And going forward, how will we be judged as a club. If we completely clean up our act as fans but the performances slide on the field, what then will be our legacy? Will people care as much anymore about us? Or will it be the continued success on the field of play that will set the standards?

This is a strange time for the club right now, seems we are split as a fan base as to what is most important - supporting old time values and links, or success on the field. Some say we are under attack from outside parties. To that I say, of course we are we are Rangers, we are the standard bearers, and thus we have a target painted on our backs. We have always been targets and as long as we continue to set the standards on the pitch, we will continue to be targets. That will remain until the day we are no longer a threat on the field.

But the past few seasons have seen a decline in our fortunes and it is imperative that the new management team guide our playing staff back to the point of being the team to beat. it is imperative that they get us playing a more open style of football, one that entertains and wins, like the great Rangers teams of old. Because that is the Rangers fans best weapon - victory!

[Stuart_RFC 41]

great post mate

and to basically sum up what you said, we stand for winning. We have always had a winning mentality that nobody else could match, we need to get that back

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

But what is our identity, what makes us great? If we were the same club with the same values and links down the years, but had been a mid table side all that time, like a Hibs, Killie etc, would we be called a great club?

But the point is we are not - we have one of the greatest records in world football - that unrivalled success you mentioned came from doing or being something different - which made us rise above the Killie/Hibs etc.

[dummiesoot 16,037]

I love the fact that as Rangers fans, no matter what you think of Rangers history and how you beleive we proceed as a club, throughout the world we always say we support THE RANGERS. There is only one Rangers that counts.

What do we stand for since it's inception THE PEOPLE

WE ARE THE PEOPLE.

[bauba30 1]

But the point is we are not - we have one of the greatest records in world football - that unrivalled success you mentioned came from doing or being something different - which made us rise above the Killie/Hibs etc.

Nonsense, what we did different was have better players playing better and more successful football. That is what wins league titles.

[bauba30 1]

I love the fact that as Rangers fans, no matter what you think of Rangers history and how you beleive we proceed as a club, throughout the world we always say we support THE RANGERS. There is only one Rangers that counts.

What do we stand for since it's inception THE PEOPLE

WE ARE THE PEOPLE.

Amen! oops!

lol

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Nonsense, what we did different was have better players playing better and more successful football. That is what wins league titles.

So total professionalism...hard work and vision...had nothing to do with us rising to be one the greatest teams in the country ?

[Eric_Caldow 60]

Great post Bauba.

I would imagine this is similar to the way the majority of our fans began supporting.

[Eric_Caldow 60]

So total professionalism...hard work and vision...had nothing to do with us rising to be one the greatest teams in the country ?

Come on guys. You're basically arguing for the sake of it now.

You are probably going to keep this up for a few more posts and then meet in the middle just to find that you are arguing the same point.

[bauba30 1]

So total professionalism...hard work and vision...had nothing to do with us rising to be one the greatest teams in the country ?

Here is where I have a real problem with your argument. You are basing your viewpoint/reasoning as far as i can see on a faith. Which is fine, no problem with that. But if you take that a step further, then the argument begins to berge on the racist. (not accusing you)

Can professionalism, hard work and vision not be virtues that all of mankind can possess? Or are you saying that because we were a club rooted in the Protestant faith that we more of a claim to those qualities than the competition?

If so that argument does not stand up, as what happened to all the players in our history who did not do well - or to the managers/staff that did not plan well? How do we explain the lean years when things did not go our way.

I would agree that those qualities were needed but that that is a tiny part of success. You cannot win without ability, at the end of the day it comes down to the 11 guys on the park playing the simplest and most beautiful game on the planet. The same game that kids play down the park - We are the People it seems because down the years we have simply spotted talent better than most, coached it up better than most and then that talent has played winning, attractive football.

[bauba30 1]

Great post Bauba.

I would imagine this is similar to the way the majority of our fans began supporting.

Cheers Eric

BTW - just as an aside, my mother think Caldow was one of the greatest players she ever saw - till the leg break

[bauba30 1]

Come on guys. You're basically arguing for the sake of it now.

You are probably going to keep this up for a few more posts and then meet in the middle just to find that you are arguing the same point.

Meet? Middle?

Come on man, that would require some sort of compromise to be made .........

[Eric_Caldow 60]

Cheers Eric

BTW - just as an aside, my mother think Caldow was one of the greatest players she ever saw - till the leg break

Imagine how I felt at seven years old, watching my hero being taken off on a stretcher and my old man saying that it was a broken leg. To my young mind it was like being told I would never see him playing again.

[Eric_Caldow 60]

Meet? Middle?

Come on man, that would require some sort of compromise to be made .........

I'm sure we are all tolerant of the many cultures and opinions within our fanbase though.

[bauba30 1]

I'm sure we are all tolerant of the many cultures and opinions within our fanbase though.

Yeah, I have always said that whatever anyone does with their life, beliefs etc, that is cool with me

The argument here has always been about Rangers direction in the years ahead.

Well, it usually starts out that way anyway.....

[bauba30 1]

Imagine how I felt at seven years old, watching my hero being taken off on a stretcher and my old man saying that it was a broken leg. To my young mind it was like being told I would never see him playing again.

Hold on, you were 7 then

That would make you..........erm........erm

Old

[delparlane 5,711]

Hold on, you were 7 then

That would make you..........erm........erm

Old

Easy on, son - don't get cheeky! Once we get the teeth oot the gless, we'll gie you a bite you won't soon forget! .

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Here is where I have a real problem with your argument. You are basing your viewpoint/reasoning as far as i can see on a faith. Which is fine, no problem with that. But if you take that a step further, then the argument begins to berge on the racist. (not accusing you)

Can professionalism, hard work and vision not be virtues that all of mankind can possess? Or are you saying that because we were a club rooted in the Protestant faith that we more of a claim to those qualities than the competition?

If so that argument does not stand up, as what happened to all the players in our history who did not do well - or to the managers/staff that did not plan well? How do we explain the lean years when things did not go our way.

I would agree that those qualities were needed but that that is a tiny part of success. You cannot win without ability, at the end of the day it comes down to the 11 guys on the park playing the simplest and most beautiful game on the planet. The same game that kids play down the park - We are the People it seems because down the years we have simply spotted talent better than most, coached it up better than most and then that talent has played winning, attractive football.

Im sure most posters will be chuckling at your feeble attempts to throw in a malicious racist element to this debate.

I dont remember saying hard work / vision etc were elements exclusive to the Protestant faith.

Two comments by other respected posters on these boards in recent days underline the problem I have with you...

1. When you were asked if you ever posted anything positive about Rangers

2. When the poverty of your arguements in another thread caused a poster to tell you that your attempts to play "devils advocate" were wearing pretty thin.

[bauba30 1]

Im sure most posters will be chuckling at your feeble attempts to throw in a malicious racist element to this debate.

I dont remember saying hard work / vision etc were elements exclusive to the Protestant faith.

Two comments by other respected posters on these boards in recent days underline the problem I have with you...

1. When you were asked if you ever posted anything positive about Rangers

2. When the poverty of your arguements in another thread caused a poster to tell you that your attempts to play "devils advocate" were wearing pretty thin.

Just once DA, can you stick to the topic.

I was asking you to make your postion clear as your previous post was very wishy washy in what exactly you were trying to say.

You never said hard work or prefessionalism was exclusive to the Protestant faith - i asked you if that is what you were alluding to?

Can you at least answer that question? What exactly were you alluding to?

As for posting things positive about Rangers, well, all I can say si that you obviously never read my posts. Just today for example, I have posted in many threads and every one is positive about Rangers

In this thread even, can you look at the original thread and tell me how it does not glorify Rangers?

Hey, maybe it doesnt glorify your vision of Rangers but it sure glorifies Rangers.

[bauba30 1]

Easy on, son - don't get cheeky! Once we get the teeth oot the gless, we'll gie you a bite you won't soon forget! .

Ok pops lol!

Actually I am heading in that direction anyway - starting to think that they dont make music like they used to etc etc etc

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Just once DA, can you stick to the topic.

I was asking you to make your postion clear as your previous post was very wishy washy in what exactly you were trying to say.

You never said hard work or prefessionalism was exclusive to the Protestant faith - i asked you if that is what you were alluding to?

Can you at least answer that question? What exactly were you alluding to?

As for posting things positive about Rangers, well, all I can say si that you obviously never read my posts. Just today for example, I have posted in many threads and every one is positive about Rangers

In this thread even, can you look at the original thread and tell me how it does not glorify Rangers?

Hey, maybe it doesnt glorify your vision of Rangers but it sure glorifies Rangers.

Its hard to stick to the topic with you Bauba when you make false inferences alleging racism.

But I'll give it a go...

How can something which to use your words is based on faith possibly be racist ? Racism pertains to a race of people not a particular religious group of people. For someone who is always banging on about diversity I would have thought you would have known that.

But the point is we are not - we have one of the greatest records in world football - that unrivalled success you mentioned came from doing or being something different - which made us rise above the Killie/Hibs etc.

So total professionalism...hard work and vision...had nothing to do with us rising to be one the greatest teams in the country ?

I dont think there is anything wishy washy or unclear about those statements.

I have clarified we have risen to the top amongst our rivals

I have suggested that hard work...being totally professional and having vision were factors that contributed to us rising to the top.

[Guest TheQueensXI]

we are a scottish club, first and foremost, with a traditionally protestant following.

nowadays, id like to ask every rangers fan who claims to be protestant which church they frequent. cant answer? dont tag yourself with a religion because of a football team.

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

we are a scottish club, first and foremost, with a traditionally protestant following.

nowadays, id like to ask every rangers fan who claims to be protestant which church they frequent. cant answer? dont tag yourself with a religion because of a football team.

Church of Scotland Elder - St Colms qualified Youth minister

Can I tag myself ?

[minstral 5,375]

we are a scottish club, first and foremost, with a traditionally protestant following.

nowadays, id like to ask every rangers fan who claims to be protestant which church they frequent. cant answer? dont tag yourself with a religion because of a football team.

im afraid its to late for that for decades we have a protestant following and always will have and it was good protestant money that rangers were quite glad to exept for decades that have made the club so big.

[bauba30 1]

Its hard to stick to the topic with you Bauba when you make false inferences alleging racism.

But I'll give it a go...

How can something which to use your words is based on faith possibly be racist ? Racism pertains to a race of people not a particular religious group of people. For someone who is always banging on about diversity I would have thought you would have known that.

I dont think there is anything wishy washy or unclear about those statements.

I have clarified we have risen to the top amongst our rivals

I have suggested that hard work...being totally professional and having vision were factors that contributed to us rising to the top.

And that is cool

Never said you were racist - what I said was that the argument that it looked like you were using was only a step or 2 from Racism, that is

"a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."

The original question was that what is Rangers identity. I made the original paoint that were known for our continuing excellence on the field (a positive comment wouldnt you say?) more so than factors off the field. That our legend is made up by the great players to pull on our jersey down the last 130 ish years.

Then you countered by offering that it was more because of what we are than who we are, when I argued that you replied with the comment about hard work and professionalism.

So naturally it looks like you were marrying hard Work and Professionalism with the protestant ideals that you hold Rangers to.

Of course you didnt say it directly, you rarely do - but the inference was there.

I do not believe I read that wrong, but if I did I apologize.

Ok, leaving to have dinner with the Mrs - bye!