Frankie 505 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I have absolutely no idea what that means. As for divisions, they don't really exist. Most fans don't belong to any group, they don't pay heed to any blogger, and only want to see a team on the park. Because I use RM doesn't make me a part of RM, I only came on here because I once tried to join another forum and it seemed not possible; it certainly wasn't as easy as this to sign up to etc. I speak for myself and RM is only a platform for me to do that.It's quite simple, some people seem to prefer to slag people off rather than anything else. As for what you say about having no loyalty to particular websites, I'm afraid that's not true. Every day I see people argue the toss on issues they'd otherwise agree on simply because they use a different website from a fellow supporter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarcheVinny 1,003 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 As Mark Dingwall is so clearly a very divisive factor, perhaps he should withdraw from any participation in the RST for the greater good of the fan-base. Follow Follow doesn't do much to promote unity either. I think I see a connection there !!!Would that really make any difference? I don't know how many board members the RST has, but he is just one of them?ED - would that make a difference to you?Personally, it wouldn't make a difference to me joining, I still wouldn't feel there is a benefit to me, as an individual. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds_Bear 8,172 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Will never happen.IF it did though - do you think its something that should be considered? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creampuff 22,630 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Unnecessary and unneeded.D'you really think the owners of the club would listen to someone because they support the club? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds_Bear 8,172 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 My own view has always been, that if fan ownership ever came to pass, it would make the current squabbles seem like a walk in the park.That's true, but squabbles and disagrements are never going to be fully put to bed. I just think that if we had 90-95% all moving in one direction we could claim what is rightfully ours and take a controlling stake at the club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Re the negative side.............people will think of others being negative when they disagree with the person who thinks from what he/she thinks of from a positive stance and that negative person actually believes he is being positive.If the above makes sense can you explain it to me Seriously, that's probably a valid point but when I see people wanting to regularly concentrate on individuals (or supposed opposing websites) rather than more challenging issues, I do find that somewhat negative and counter-productive. For several years now, RFC has been in the grubber and we still see bears who do put themselves forward to try and analyse this problem slagged off. I don't understand the rationale behind that - although obviously I'd defend anyone's right to constructively criticise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Artagnan 13,319 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Unnecessary and unneeded.D'you really think the owners of the club would listen to someone because they support the club?I would certainly hope so - and one of CG's first statements was to acknowledge that bridges needed to be built between support and club.I think any football club who continually failed to listen/respond to issues cocnerning its support would eventually suffer the consequences. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCDBigBear 10,915 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Would that really make any difference? I don't know how many board members the RST has, but he is just one of them?ED - would that make a difference to you?Personally, it wouldn't make a difference to me joining, I still wouldn't feel there is a benefit to me, as an individual.It wouldn't make a difference to me from the point of view that I would wish to retain total control of my personal shareholding. It would however assist me with giving the RST my backing on general issues if it was more inclusive. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnberry18 3,204 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 It's quite simple, some people seem to prefer to slag people off rather than anything else. As for what you say about having no loyalty to particular websites, I'm afraid that's not true. Every day I see people argue the toss on issues they'd otherwise agree on simply because they use a different website from a fellow supporter.That might apply to people who take these websites more seriously than they should, but I haven't met a Rangers fan yet who cares anything about forums. It's a football club, the end product of the team on the park is what matters. All these fans groups are in some ways symptomatic of the upheaval that has happened due to the way the club has been run. If Rangers was successful and run properly, then these fans groups would quickly lose their allure with a great many supporters. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmiston Drive 3,846 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 That's true, but squabbles and disagrements are never going to be fully put to bed. I just think that if we had 90-95% all moving in one direction we could claim what is rightfully ours and take a controlling stake at the club.Fair comment, but I would have to say it would be a bigger disaster than the current troubles in the boardroom just now if the fans got into such position. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnberry18 3,204 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I didnt say you had to join a fans group - I said if there was a unity beteween the fans and 'fans groups' - fans ownership would be a viable option.Would you be a part of a push for fans ownership, similar to what we see in Germany? You dont have to join a fans group for that.I wouldn't, because I don't see a football club as a democratically run institution. What we are seeing here is a symptom of the lack of leadership at the top of the club. We need someone, or people who will take the club on and shake it into shape. I, quite frankly, cannot get my head round why we are now in this mess when the possibilities are there to make something good out of this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 That might apply to people who take these websites more seriously than they should, but I haven't met a Rangers fan yet who cares anything about forums. It's a football club, the end product of the team on the park is what matters. All these fans groups are in some ways symptomatic of the upheaval that has happened due to the way the club has been run. If Rangers was successful and run properly, then these fans groups would quickly lose their allure with a great many supporters.Like I said, people exaggerate the online divisions but to say they're not problematic is hiding from what is an issue worth discussing.It's partly because of these divisions that our more formal fan groups don't work as well as they should and it's partly because of that those involved with the club over the last few years could (and still do) take so many liberties.It's a vicious circle and despite many good intentions I don't see many ways out of it as long as we have people that would prefer to slag off each other than work together. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds_Bear 8,172 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I wouldn't, because I don't see a football club as a democratically run institution. What we are seeing here is a symptom of the lack of leadership at the top of the club. We need someone, or people who will take the club on and shake it into shape. I, quite frankly, cannot get my head round why we are now in this mess when the possibilities are there to make something good out of this.I agree with everything but your first point because having the club as a democratically run institution would solve every other point in your post. Fans could elect their board and they would be held accountable - I am not saying fans are involved with the day to day running of the club, that would be unrealistic - but we would be allowed to hold our board accountable. For too long people in charge of our club have taken the piss out of the people who pay to support it - the Fans. Its about time we made a stand to be honest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elephants stoned 2,994 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 On the issue of forums id just like to say, its a year ago today i joined RM and whatever problems may have happened and whatever arguments may have ensued I would be lost without you guys, living down here means im not surrounded by Bluenoses so without RM i would be living in ignorance, blissfull ignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non_Sucumbi 876 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 There is no unity between the different fans groups. We have so-called Rangers men who hang around Ibrox but don't go to games.There is no unity between board members. Too many so-called Rangers men cutting each others throats.I wonder if the solution is a to go back to a single-owner and a Totalitarian regime?? At least you don't have any disunity..... well unless the owner is a googly-eyed bi-polar wee runt from Wishaw.Fans cannot share a common goal, board cannot share a common goal and if we go back to a 'single owner' we may well end up with another CW..... its actually quite depressing and I'm not easily depressed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnberry18 3,204 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Like I said, people exaggerate the online divisions but to say they're not problematic is hiding from what is an issue worth discussing.It's partly because of these divisions that our more formal fan groups don't work as well as they should and it's partly because of that those involved with the club over the last few years could (and still do) take so many liberties.It's a vicious circle and despite many good intentions I don't see many ways out of it as long as we have people that would prefer to slag off each other than work together.I agree with much of that, but at the end of it is the fact is that the club is not being run properly. I can't imagine the club in a better position to repair things and move up to where it should be, and yet for whatever reason this shambles exists. The real problem is at the top, and unless it gets sorted there then we are going to be staying here, as you say, in this vicious circle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Artagnan 13,319 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 The Swansea model seems to satisfy all sides - 20% stake in the club, representation on the board with every season ticket holder automatically qualifying for membership of their trust. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds_Bear 8,172 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Fair comment, but I would have to say it would be a bigger disaster than the current troubles in the boardroom just now if the fans got into such position.I see where you are coming from, but its extremley difficult to say that without having any evidence available to us. All I know is that in Germany the fans have the power, operate sound financially and are succesfull - I would be willing to put up with a few disagreements here or there for our club to follow a similar route. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnberry18 3,204 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I agree with everything but your first point because having the club as a democratically run institution would solve every other point in your post. Fans could elect their board and they would be held accountable - I am not saying fans are involved with the day to day running of the club, that would be unrealistic - but we would be allowed to hold our board accountable. For too long people in charge of our club have taken the piss out of the people who pay to support it - the Fans. Its about time we made a stand to be honest.Saying this as a democrat feels a little awkward! However, when it comes to a football club having elected people is there would then need to still be checks and balances on things. I could imagine the thought that fans could elect someone out hindering their ability to make brave decisions etc. That's my concern, and I am open that if someone convinced me on it then I would change my position on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I agree with much of that, but at the end of it is the fact is that the club is not being run properly. I can't imagine the club in a better position to repair things and move up to where it should be, and yet for whatever reason this shambles exists. The real problem is at the top, and unless it gets sorted there then we are going to be staying here, as you say, in this vicious circle.Of course the real issue is with the club but if we had a less fractured fan base (or at least fans prepared to see the wood for the trees for a short while) then that issue could be forced.I've no doubt current ongoing events will soon see Rangers fans at the front door of the club. I think that's the only way we'll see a way out. However, will fans stand together and back someone like King if he steps up? Or will they prefer to slag him off as well because someone they don't like on another website supports him?That's where this debate ultimately takes us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 The Swansea model seems to satisfy all sides - 20% stake in the club, representation on the board with every season ticket holder automatically qualifying for membership of their trust.Something definitely worth striving for.The Assembly has to be replaced with a membership scheme. That would be one step in the right direction but is probably impossible at this moment in time as the club rots from the inside out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnberry18 3,204 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Of course the real issue is with the club but if we had a less fractured fan base (or at least fans prepared to see the wood for the trees for a short while) then that issue could be forced.I've no doubt current ongoing events will soon see Rangers fans at the front door of the club. I think that's the only way we'll see a way out. However, will fans stand together and back someone like King if he steps up? Or will they prefer to slag him off as well because someone they don't like on another website supports him?That's where this debate ultimately takes us.If Dave King turned up and got it sorted then I would back him. I would back anyone who got it sorted; and by sorted I mean a team on the park, running a firm budget, seeing that Murray Park became a proper training academy for young players, and not placing the club in jeopardy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmiston Drive 3,846 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Would that really make any difference? I don't know how many board members the RST has, but he is just one of them?ED - would that make a difference to you?Personally, it wouldn't make a difference to me joining, I still wouldn't feel there is a benefit to me, as an individual.I have to say again.........I do not know any current individuals on the board of the rst, but my main gripe is the fact that they have a man on the board (yes he is on the board and they have tried to hide that) who seems to cause friction, the only reason I have ever thought he should be removed was because of his involvement and the fact he presented a cheque that bounced and from what I understand took 18 months to rectify. That alone should have seen him removed after all the middle part of the name is TRUST.Also I have the opinion that their holier than thou type attitude in portraying themselves as the voice of the fan , and yes I do believe they allow that to be portrayed but they point out when up against it that they only speak for their members. Talking about members actual members as in joined up for what the trust is supposed to stand for not members as in the fans who put in £125 for the rst to purchase shares in the recent issue, they are not nor would many of them renew memberships, so in ten years they have failed miserably in making the rst a success if you look at hardcore members they have attracted in ten years.Would I join..............I think I would if they called a halt and re-branded a question .....when the old Ltd Co stopped trading was the trust not aligned to the actual Ltd Co in the sense as opposed to the entity that is the Club..............if so why are they still trading as the rst.I believe the trust could have been a go vehicle , but it has been dogged by self-interest and ego tripping form individuals and the personal attacks on here by certain members to any questioning a viewpoint opposing them is worrying. They have a chip on their shoulder as they want to be loved by everyone but they drive people away from them in my eyes as outlined above.They have been a failure in the overall scheme of things and are poorly supported in terms of real membership based as a % of the Rangers fans. The make proclamations that are heralded as speaking of behalf of the fans of the club and their past behavior in the treatment of individuals trying to purchase the club was bad in it's execution.Remember one strong individual can sway weaker members of a board and I believe from my point of view to be the case with them. You never see this individual in any board pics released, never hear him as attending meetings with the Club and on numerous occasions some even denied he was indeed a board member, until Lisburn over a week or so ago confirmed he was..............now ask yourself why would they do all of this?The above is merely my viewpoint on the question asked if I would join rst and does not represent the view of anyone else nor does it represent the Good Old Glasgow Tuesday Banter Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie 505 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 IF Dave King turned up and got it sorted then I would back him. I would back anyone who got it sorted; and by sorted I mean a team on the park, running a firm budget, seeing that Murray Park became a proper training academy for young players, and not placing the club in jeopardy.Dave King (or any other potential owner) would do well to outline their intentions and IMHO they'd probably have a fair bit of support should they be able to show the club would be well funded and run suitably going forward. He'd also do well to consider the toxic nature of people like Bain and Paul Murray.However, plenty more wouldn't accept his ownership because he was involved with the club previously or was unable to access his funds during last years administration period. Unfortunately, in the absence of other visible bids and a club that seems intent in imploding, I'm really not sure what other option we have in any case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmiston Drive 3,846 Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 On the issue of forums id just like to say, its a year ago today i joined RM and whatever problems may have happened and whatever arguments may have ensued I would be lost without you guys, living down here means im not surrounded by Bluenoses so without RM i would be living in ignorance, blissfull ignorance http://youtu.be/G0qD0ejB79k Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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