Appearance totals for our young players.

[there'sonlyoneamoruso 1,724]

Can't disagree. First team football has done wonders for Aird. I also feel that his gradual introduction to the side has been a big part of it. He wasn't just dropped in and left to sink or swim. He got a few games, then was taken out. Telfer would follow a similar route if he hadn't chucked it in favour of a move.

Glad we agree.

[STEPPS BOY 74,671]

What did I leave out?

You compared 11 Rangers players to 5 Hearts players, conveniently missing a plethora of Hearts players out.

5 Rangers players from Last night inc Mckay - 61 appearances

5 Hearts players from last night - 160 appearances..

The 5 Hearts players appearances coming in the SPL....

[Fan Ownership 101]

Can't disagree. First team football has done wonders for Aird. I also feel that his gradual introduction to the side has been a big part of it. He wasn't just dropped in and left to sink or swim. He got a few games, then was taken out. Telfer would follow a similar route if he hadn't chucked it in favour of a move.

Aird made his debut on the 23rd of September. He played in 9 straight games between then and November 17th - including 4 starts.

Telfer got 20 minutes and was never seen again. Hardly comparable.

Aird would have got the exact same treatment as Telfer had he been trying to break into the side this year, but he was fortunate enough to get his chance before we signed 9 players last summer.

Aird is the perfect example of what regular first team appearances will do for a player. He has improved immeasurably through it.

[The Dude 20,026]

You compared 11 Rangers players to 5 Hearts players, conveniently missing a plethora of Hearts players out.

5 Rangers players from Last night inc Mckay - 61 appearances

5 Hearts players from last night - 160 appearances..

The 5 Hearts players appearances coming in the SPL....

Again, I didn't compare anyone. I have no interest in comparing us with Hearts. Playing for Rangers and playing for Hearts are two massively different things. There were more than 5 hearts players in the team last night with first team appearances. The five I mentioned were regulars in the first team. Others have made appearances aswell I believe. If I wanted to compare them I would have listed each side and the number of appearences each player had made. Although if you want to continue to build strawmen then fire away.

[TravelingWilBEARy 4,319]

I think the points that should be acknowledged by both sides of the debate are:

A) McCoist has placed his faith in some youth players, even when more experienced players were available.

B) A few players - Gallagher in particular - should have been given more game time particularly when the league was won.

It is completely erroneous to claim that he has ignored youth or that he lacks the managerial tools to develop them. At the same time, he can be criticised for not bringing through more, especially towards the end of the season.

This issue isn't as black and white as people are making out.

[Cos88 283]

Lewis Macleod - 55 appearances - Made his debut aged 18

Barrie McKay - 46 appearances - Made his debut aged 17

Fraser Aird - 58 appearances - Made his debut aged 17

Robbie Crawford - 52 Appearances - Made his debut aged 19

Danny Stoney 3 appearances - Made his debut aged 16

Luca Gasparotto - 4 appearances - Made his debut aged 18

Charlie Telfer 1 appearance - Made his debut aged 18

Calum Gallagher - 6 appearances - Made his debut aged 19

Andy Murdoch - 1 appearance - Made his debut aged 18

Andy Mitchell - 10 appearances - Made his debut aged 19

Tom Walsh 1 appearance - Made his debut aged 16

Those eleven players have made a total of 237 appearances between them for Rangers in the last two seasons, some have also been shipped out on loan and played first team football there too.

The Hearts team which the U20s defeated last night had 5 first team regulars (including this seasons top scorer Callum Paterson) with a combined total of 160 first team appearances. With the exception of Andy Mitchell who is no longer at the club and Robbie Crawford, All of those players were eligible to play in the Youth Cup final. There were also a few others I haven't listed who have been unused subs for the first team, Craig Halkett, Ryan Sinnamon, Liam Kelly and Alan Smith.

To suggest that McCoist simply refuses to play youths so he can shoehorn his pals into the side is misleading at best. Infact Macleod, Aird and McKay have played a combined total of first team games for Rangers which is one less than the Hearts team last night.

Macleod has also missed 18 games this season due to injury and missed a number last season through injury.

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that Macleod, Aird and McKay are the three brightest prospects at the club and I also don't think it's unfair to suggest that this has been backed up by the fact these players have featured fairly regularly.

Anyway, I just thought I'd put these figures out there.

So you're comparing 5 Hearts players over the space of 1 season against 11 Rangers players over the space of 2 seasons, seems a fair comparison...

[plymouthranger 3,902]

The problem is the vast majority of these minutes were last year.

Now our youth has been shunted to allow nothing-players like Foster to earn one last big paycheck.

Who honestly believes we wouldn't have got promoted if we'd given players like Gasparotto and McAusland a run of 15-20games this season?

[The Dude 20,026]

So you're comparing 5 Hearts players over the space of 1 season against 11 Rangers players over the space of 2 seasons, seems a fair comparison...

Theres no comparison. I've no interest in comparing with Hearts. A comparison would've been if I'd listed both of last nights XIs and compared the number of appearances. The closest it comes to comapring them is saying that all bar Mitchell and Crawfird were eligible to play last night but I'll leave you to keep missing the point.

[Bobby Hume 13,221]

yes. Professionals should always be before amatures. Season ticket holders dont buy their tickets to watch the reserves playing. If we went with the reserve players we would get the same amount of fans as the reserve games do.

asked this before and nobody took it up.

If ally doesnt give youth a go show me another team who are comparable to us and have played more youth players than us while being successful?

Probably not a lot to compare to, I have to agree. The ability of the coaching staff in moulding a team of younger players' /experienced players', is part of the equation that must be taken into consideration, while attempting to answer your question on success.

The point is, that we have missed a fantastic opportunity to really get the benefit out of Auchenhowie, and at times (quite a lot, actually) when the need to freshen up the side was apparent to all, the relevant ability to do so, was glaring in it's absence.

These last two seasons should've been our chance to break the mould and develop our youth, as opposed to cheque book, short term success. Had our first team coaching staff had the ability to achieve this ideal, we would still have won these last two part time leagues successfully. To say we brought in SPL standard players to win cups also, just doesn't cut it anymore, as the results and style of play has been mostly abysmal. The balance should have been better organised to meet the leagues we were playing in.

[Adoniram 1,919]

I think the points that should be acknowledged by both sides of the debate are:

A) McCoist has placed his faith in some youth players, even when more experienced players were available.

B) A few players - Gallagher in particular - should have been given more game time particularly when the league was won.

It is completely erroneous to claim that he has ignored youth or that he lacks the managerial tools to develop them. At the same time, he can be criticised for not bringing through more, especially towards the end of the season.

This issue isn't as black and white as people are making out.

Hate myself for saying this but i ......nearly agree with you.

No one with an ounce of sense is suggesting he should have played a team full of kids.

What i have said from day one is he has chosen a path that pays lip service to the youth players.

In the case of McLeod he was moved to the left to accomodate the experience of Black and Law. A partnership i would contend has been poor for about 90% of the season.

Aird was lucky with the injuries to Templeton and Shiels and the lack of workrate from McKay. He has taken his chance. He doesn't hide or absolve himself from his defensive duties. I personally don't think he is all that great a player but he has been given enough games to formulate a reasoned opinion.

What i wanted to see was more youth players in certain games and certain stages of the season.

One or two here and there getting 4 or 5 games to see how they cope.

Gasparotto for example who should have played in the 1st team but didn't. Crawford as well who did his job at the start of the season alongside McLeod but was then jettisoned for the remainder of the season. What use was that to this lad in terms of his career and confidence? If he isn't good enough let him go instead of ruining him on a bench every week.

One eye should have been on winning the league and the other on a year or two down the line.

No one will convince me we couldn't have won the league with a better mix of youth and experience.

[The Dude 20,026]

The problem is the vast majority of these minutes were last year.

Now our youth has been shunted to allow nothing-players like Foster to earn one last big paycheck.

Who honestly believes we wouldn't have got promoted if we'd given players like Gasparotto and McAusland a run of 15-20games this season?

McAusland got a run of games at the start of the season. He then got a run of games at Ayr where he didn't do all that great.

[hellobob 0]

McAusland got a run of games at the start of the season. He then got a run of games at Ayr where he didn't do all that great.

#

Haven't really addressed his question there, have you?

I'm not certain McCausland is what we need going forward but he did look up to the task early on this season and I doubt if Foster is a long term solution either.

[Fan Ownership 101]

McAusland got a run of games at the start of the season. He then got a run of games at Ayr where he didn't do all that great.

He didn't do that great, but they've taken him on loan on 3 separate occasions now?

[Fan Ownership 101]

#

Haven't really addressed his question there, have you?

I'm not certain McCausland is what we need going forward but he did look up to the task early on this season and I doubt if Foster is a long term solution either.

McAusland is cheaper and at least has the potential to improve. He acquitted himself well at the start of the season (we conceded one goal and scored 18 goals in the 4 games he played all 90 mins of) and never heard from again.

[The Dude 20,026]

#

Haven't really addressed his question there, have you?

I'm not certain McCausland is what we need going forward but he did look up to the task early on this season and I doubt if Foster is a long term solution either.

You mean the question I answered earlier in the thread a few times?

He might well have looked up to the task but when he went to ayr he never.

[The Dude 20,026]

McAusland is cheaper and at least has the potential to improve. He acquitted himself well at the start of the season (we conceded one goal and scored 18 goals in the 4 games he played all 90 mins of) and never heard from again.

Great, hes cheaper. So is Faure. Lets play him there instead.

[Fan Ownership 101]

Great, hes cheaper. So is Faure. Lets play him there instead.

Faure isn't a rightback and he's earning roughly the same as Foster anyway.

[The Dude 20,026]

Faure isn't a rightback and he's earning roughly the same as Foster anyway.

Neither is McAusland. He only moved to RB a few years ago. Before that he was a CF.

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,767]

Have you ever thought its because those 4 are the best of the bunch? That they are the ones who will likely have a career at Rangers long term?

if they 4 are the best of the bunch, then why was macleod shunted wide left, aird dropped at the start for peralta, mckay dumped on loan to a club who do not give a shit about mckays development and crawford given sporadic minutes here and there instead of consistent appearances

do people not understand that the last 2 seasons for rangers were a gimme, the title was engraved before the season started, it was a matter of when the leagues were done not if

Hell we even had players complaining of being tired this season, and they played every game available after that, when black moaned about being knackered we should have dropped him to the bench and given the likes of telfer a start

as i said to TWB, when ally failed to fill the subs bench against east fife at ibrox, he should have been sacked there and then, even a matchday experience for a young lad, not game time but simply a matchday experience can make a difference, the player gets a hunger for doing it again and again

Instead the u20's must have seen that empty slot and thought "fuck this why are we bursting our balls when he does something like this"

[Fan Ownership 101]

Neither is McAusland. He only moved to RB a few years ago. Before that he was a CF.

Signed as a striker at U15s, but was converted into a defender.

Seb Faure is a centre-back. Some players can play other positions well, some can't, Faure isn't one of them.

You seemed to ignore the point I was making anyway - probably deliberately - McAusland proved he was more than capable of paying the rightback role earlier in the season. He was a cheaper option than signing Foster and at least had potential to improve in the position. Why on earth sign Foster?

[STEPPS BOY 74,671]

Again, I didn't compare anyone. I have no interest in comparing us with Hearts. Playing for Rangers and playing for Hearts are two massively different things. There were more than 5 hearts players in the team last night with first team appearances. The five I mentioned were regulars in the first team. Others have made appearances aswell I believe. If I wanted to compare them I would have listed each side and the number of appearences each player had made. Although if you want to continue to build strawmen then fire away.

If you were not comparing then why mention Hearts at all

[Jimfanciesthedude 24,767]

Why on earth sign Foster?

because super duper knows no fucking else, ally has never learned the art of growing a team, in his two spells at the club he

1) Watched as we simply bought whatever was needed

2) Played a part as we simply bought whatever was needed

Remember mccoist was the one that told us danny wilson only made his breakthrough because we were skint, had we had some money to buy a centre half replacement back then wilson would have rotted in the reserves and we'd never have gotten anywhere near 2 million for him

[The Dude 20,026]

if they 4 are the best of the bunch, then why was macleod shunted wide left, aird dropped at the start for peralta, mckay dumped on loan to a club who do not give a shit about mckays development and crawford given sporadic minutes here and there instead of consistent appearances

do people not understand that the last 2 seasons for rangers were a gimme, the title was engraved before the season started, it was a matter of when the leagues were done not if

Hell we even had players complaining of being tired this season, and they played every game available after that, when black moaned about being knackered we should have dropped him to the bench and given the likes of telfer a start

as i said to TWB, when ally failed to fill the subs bench against east fife at ibrox, he should have been sacked there and then, even a matchday experience for a young lad, not game time but simply a matchday experience can make a difference, the player gets a hunger for doing it again and again

Instead the u20's must have seen that empty slot and thought "fuck this why are we bursting our balls when he does something like this"

Macelod because he isn't the finished article yet. Black and Law are both better than he is and in all fairness playing on the left will make him a better all round player It'll improve his positioning, tactical awareness and put less pressure on him.

Aird dropped for Peralta. Why not? Young players are inconsistent, Aird showed this himself earlier this season. It happens with young players all the time all across the planet.

McKay shipped on loan - questions re: his attitude. Thinking he had made it when he's a million miles from it just now.

Crawford - cant answer. He should've been given more game time. Especially once we lost Macleod.

Agree re: players being tired. There should have been changes. Believe me, I'm all for youths getting a chance.

[The Dude 20,026]

Signed as a striker at U15s, but was converted into a defender.

Seb Faure is a centre-back. Some players can play other positions well, some can't, Faure isn't one of them.

You seemed to ignore the point I was making anyway - probably deliberately - McAusland proved he was more than capable of paying the rightback role earlier in the season. He was a cheaper option than signing Foster and at least had potential to improve in the position. Why on earth sign Foster?

Playing 3 or 4 games at RB doesn't really prove much. Remember Jordan McMillan? He looked good for us, then found his level at Dunfermline & Partick.

Foster signed becase the manager doesn't think McAusland was good enough to be first choice RB.

[Poetry_In_Blue 1,043]

If anyone bothered to investigate reports regarding Durie and McCoist, Durie had asked Coisty to not involve too many of his players from the youth ranks towards the end of this season because he had his own injury problems to worry about and wanted to focus on the cups they were still playing for.