No more smoke & mirrors

[SUPERCOOPER 115]

Whatever the maths, this current Rangers side needs at least 2 quality signings, players that are capable of turning games. I we don't get them, I fear for us next season.

[Craigy 0]

I'm not very good with numbers or words so correct me if I'm wrong.

You said we were £16.5m in debt as of 30/6/07 and spent around £10m in players leaving us £26.5m in debt. Selling Hutton and Sebo would bring that back down to the £16.5m so our net spend would have been about even.

Now why not use half of that estimated £20m (although it is probably more) towards transfers and put the other £10m + £3m payment from JJB (and possible bonus payment) towards the debt?

Our net spend would not have been even - you have to factor in our increased costs (bigger squad = more wages, more signing on fees plus new loan servicing etc).

If we qualify from the CL we can make around £4million - IIRC from 2005/06 - all things considered (transfer fees, wages, loans etc).

As such, while our UEFA run will have improved that figure, it certainly won't be huge so £5million is a conservative guess as to what we'll report. Hopefully it may be more. Just don't get your hopes up is what I'm saying...

Didn't we report profits of just under £3m until 31st of December 2007, which was before we sold Hutton and Sebo and went on the UEFA Cup run, which also got us an extra £3m from ITV money for being the only British team from the last 16?

What was the debt level in December?

[Jimenez 1]

Surely though Frankie the sale of Hutton is a £9 million profit ??? We can also expect to make a profit on Cousin. With the money from Euro...whatever it is that is surely a sizeable sum.

No, because the Hutton/Sebo money only pays for the £10million we spent last summer (July onwards). That still leaves us £16.5million in debt.

The money from the Euro run then goes to cover any other expenses which will be higher than in previous years for reasons indicated above. We will (or should) report a modest profit but not the kind to immediately give us £12million to spend solely on transfers as well as reduce the debt to the kind of level MIH would like to help sell the club.

Please note this all of own opinion. I'm no expert and may well be wrong.

I believe you are correct. Which is why I'm certain we'll sell on one of our more valuable assets.

Buffel, Gow, Cousin & Hemdani will be lucky to fetch us close to £4million. Add your projected profit we are looking at somewhere in the region of £8-9million. I could only guess what amount Murray will pay of towards the loan.

After signing Miller :barf: and Davis plus maybe Reynolds we are aready looking at having a transfer kitty of zero.

[Muff 245]

Thats why top class bosman's should also of been snapped up by now!

[rfc_no1fan 13]

Didn't we report profits of just under £3m until 31st of December 2007, which was before we sold Hutton and Sebo and went on the UEFA Cup run, which also got us an extra £3m from ITV money for being the only British team from the last 16?

What was the debt level in December?

It doesnt add up mate.

Tv Money from BBC (Panathiniakos and Werder), T- mobile and other sponsership, all the ITV tv money, £4 million for just appearing in the final, merchandise, Hutton and Sebo transfers, gate reciepts (£40 a ticket)

In recent years we have lost around £5 million in the last 6 months of the season. However the wage bill is now less than it was before and we almost got that from the UEFA Cup final alone.

[minstral 5,375]

good post dart, but people wont like me saying this, but walter is only murrays puppet and does as he is told.

[Frankie 505]

Didn't we report profits of just under £3m until 31st of December 2007, which was before we sold Hutton and Sebo and went on the UEFA Cup run, which also got us an extra £3m from ITV money for being the only British team from the last 16?

What was the debt level in December?

I think after tax the actual profit reported in the half-yearly figures was just over £2million. That was after 6 lucrative games in the Champions' League where upon we also shared TV money with Celtic. That would have brought the debt down to about £14million in simple terms.

More would have been made with the UEFA run - including the ITV deal - so I guess ten further games could bring in another fair amount. You don't earn the same money from the UEFA Cup though as you do in the CL - as Celtic showed during their Seville year.

That's why, all in all, I think £5million retained profit is a fairly conservative estimate in that regard. It may well be more (and obviously I hope it is) but past experience tells me it won't be as much as some people have suggested recently.

If we've got the overall debt back down to about £10million we'll have done well. Obviously, if we spend another £10million in the summer (or more) then we risk that debt rising again given the difficulty we're going to have qualifying for the CL Group stage. As such, IMO, we may not see any genuine quality players arrive until/if we secure that passage.

We also have to factor in the £22million loan which we've just started paying back over the next 22 years, the fact our chairman is still keen on selling the club and the fact we're trying to raise funds to build a new stadium/regenerate the existing area.

Fact of the matter is - and unusually pessimistic of me it may be - we're still not in the kind of financial position that means we can spend over £10million on new players without a great element of risk attached. Doesn't matter who the chairman is.

We can only reach that point by doing what we did last season on a more consistent basis - ie CL Group Stage qualification and staying in Europe beyond Xmas as far as possible. That increases the exposure of the club, ensures money is coming in annually, ensures the debt will come down each year, maximises the chances of investment and puts us in a strong position with regard to sponsorship.

That's the kind of positive 'vicious' circle we're aiming for instead of the negative one we've been in since the turn of this century.

[Gaffbear 4,096]

Thats why top class bosman's should also of been snapped up by now!

Klasnic!!!

[Gaffbear 4,096]

Didn't we report profits of just under £3m until 31st of December 2007, which was before we sold Hutton and Sebo and went on the UEFA Cup run, which also got us an extra £3m from ITV money for being the only British team from the last 16?

What was the debt level in December?

It doesnt add up mate.

Tv Money from BBC (Panathiniakos and Werder), T- mobile and other sponsership, all the ITV tv money, £4 million for just appearing in the final, merchandise, Hutton and Sebo transfers, gate reciepts (£40 a ticket)

In recent years we have lost around £5 million in the last 6 months of the season. However the wage bill is now less than it was before and we almost got that from the UEFA Cup final alone.

I'd heard that Champions league,UEFA cup,Scottish and CIS cup including the sale of Hutton and Sebo we pulled in £35m this season.

[Howlingmonkey 0]

Didn't we report profits of just under £3m until 31st of December 2007, which was before we sold Hutton and Sebo and went on the UEFA Cup run, which also got us an extra £3m from ITV money for being the only British team from the last 16?

What was the debt level in December?

It doesnt add up mate.

Tv Money from BBC (Panathiniakos and Werder), T- mobile and other sponsership, all the ITV tv money, £4 million for just appearing in the final, merchandise, Hutton and Sebo transfers, gate reciepts (£40 a ticket)

In recent years we have lost around £5 million in the last 6 months of the season. However the wage bill is now less than it was before and we almost got that from the UEFA Cup final alone.

I'd heard that Champions league,UEFA cup,Scottish and CIS cup including the sale of Hutton and Sebo we pulled in £35m this season.

Thats some figure my friend, 20 million maybe for the Euro expedition the transfers speak for themselves the SC & CIS peanuts at the most

[gazzabear 0]

So after making the Champions league group stage, getting to the Uefa final, domestic cup winning runs, JJB payment and maybe a bonus payment aswell as selling Hutton we have probably only made £5m in real profit? That sounds utter unbelievable.

Great post D'Art

Shows the financial mess we are in if we need to have that level of success every year just to break even. Not that we're below the level, but as a business model if you start relying on it, then you can get seriously f***ed if it doesn't materialise - just look at Leeds Utd!!!

Also, the only ones that will end up paying through the nose for this is us, the fans, in season tickets, food, souvenirs and one-off match tickets. Can't believe we charge £35 a game for UEFA games yet other clubs abroad only charge £20 - where does SDM get off charging as much - bearing in mind the extra cost of traveliing midweek and missing work, etc, he shoudl be bringing these charges down!!!

[Briton 394]

good post dart, but people wont like me saying this, but walter is only murrays puppet and does as he is told.

Well he is his boss minstral. As for the original point...I think we all agree we could do with an injection of quality, with 2-3 players and a spend of £10m+, but at the same time I want us to be financially prudent. It's a real dilemma. Come on Murray...make a £10-15 million donation of your own money (don't hold your breath).

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

i am not sure if i would trust walter to bring in these signings as some of the people we are being linked with is dreadful and no better than what we already have

You just have to laugh - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

FFS - The man who brought us gascoigne and laudrup, laterly Cuellar, THomson, Davis and made McGregor first choice.

Weir, JCD, Cousin and DeBeasley were not bad signings. (Nor to be honest were McCollough nor Dailly).

Faye didn't work, and Gow looks for the off but Naismith may yet become the player we hope.

Yongsters coming through the ranks and getting a game and a UEFA cup final place, 2 trophies after 2 barren years and league only lost on last day.

AND you dont trust the manager - FFS!!!!!!!!

[Bluepeter9 5,167]

Didn't we report profits of just under £3m until 31st of December 2007, which was before we sold Hutton and Sebo and went on the UEFA Cup run, which also got us an extra £3m from ITV money for being the only British team from the last 16?

What was the debt level in December?

I think after tax the actual profit reported in the half-yearly figures was just over £2million. That was after 6 lucrative games in the Champions' League where upon we also shared TV money with Celtic. That would have brought the debt down to about £14million in simple terms.

More would have been made with the UEFA run - including the ITV deal - so I guess ten further games could bring in another fair amount. You don't earn the same money from the UEFA Cup though as you do in the CL - as Celtic showed during their Seville year.

That's why, all in all, I think £5million retained profit is a fairly conservative estimate in that regard. It may well be more (and obviously I hope it is) but past experience tells me it won't be as much as some people have suggested recently.

If we've got the overall debt back down to about £10million we'll have done well. Obviously, if we spend another £10million in the summer (or more) then we risk that debt rising again given the difficulty we're going to have qualifying for the CL Group stage. As such, IMO, we may not see any genuine quality players arrive until/if we secure that passage.

We also have to factor in the £22million loan which we've just started paying back over the next 22 years, the fact our chairman is still keen on selling the club and the fact we're trying to raise funds to build a new stadium/regenerate the existing area.

Fact of the matter is - and unusually pessimistic of me it may be - we're still not in the kind of financial position that means we can spend over £10million on new players without a great element of risk attached. Doesn't matter who the chairman is.

We can only reach that point by doing what we did last season on a more consistent basis - ie CL Group Stage qualification and staying in Europe beyond Xmas as far as possible. That increases the exposure of the club, ensures money is coming in annually, ensures the debt will come down each year, maximises the chances of investment and puts us in a strong position with regard to sponsorship.

That's the kind of positive 'vicious' circle we're aiming for instead of the negative one we've been in since the turn of this century.

Frankie is 100% correct - I cant believe the figures being quoted on this forum - £35M crops up regularly and it is NO where near that - and as Frankie says the increase we all talk about is turnover NOT profit. WE do need to reduce the debt - I like Murray - he has done the club proud, but at the end of the day if he walks away we would (perhaps) be in financial turmoil - and thats why it is important that we as a club stand on our own two feet financially. WE do NOT want to be dependant upon one mans largess - even if I trust Murray, he may get hit by a bus and his family may NOT be as supportive. Standing on our own financially is essential for Rangers - and it is correct Murray puts the processes in place to make it so. If you dont think there is a risk, look at Gretna, Leeds United or even Celtic before McCann sorted them out financially. Teams, even big teams can do down hill without the correct financial structures.

We are fortunate that we have a big enough support, a good chairman and enough finances to stay at the top of the Scottish game and have some fun in Europe. Its a shame we are in a league that does NOT have TV cash. But we have to live with that fact.

We may not like the fact that Murray has decided to make us balance the books - but it is the correct thing for the long term survival of this great club.

[jbm26896 995]

D'Art,

As I posted in the other thread below, unfortunately while our European run will have brought in decent money (£20million sounds accurate to me), the profits per se won't be anywhere near as large.

I reckon £5million is probably about as much as we will have made in real profit, so if we want to spend say another £5-10million on top of that, then we'll need to delve into the MIH revolving credit facility again in the summer.

I think we would have done that last year to spend the money we did and that's why Hutton was sold - to ensure any debt was immediately removed.

Ergo, if we have to take another £5-10million this year, then that means a Cuellar or a McGregor will have to go once more. And that's not factoring in the reasonable chance of us NOT even qualifying for the CL Group Stage.

We'll know more at lunchtime on the 30th of June.

£10 to 12 million would be a decent amount in my opinion Frankie - we dont need to rebuild the squad but we need at least 2 real quality players. I saw a thread where it was suggested we would only have £3 million - that of course may have been a rumour started at Ibrox so that clubs dont hold us to ransom over players.

£3m is nonsense , if we sign miller and davis , we will have spent £4.6m already

[Frankie 505]

£3m is nonsense , if we sign miller and davis , we will have spent £4.6m already

When these commentators use such low figures, I assume they're talking about net spending.

Thus, while the likely purchase of Davis and Miller would cost around £4.6million, the likely sale of Cousin and Hemdani would mean the net spend is zero.

Sure we may go onto spend another £5million+ but as we've discussed above, unless we secure CL qualification (and maybe even if we do), there's a chance we'll have to recoup out transfer outlay by selling one of our prize assets - as we did with Hutton in January.

While I may not agree with BP9's assessment of SDM's tenure, I do agree with his realism regarding our financial position because of the SPL.

[Briton 394]

£3m is nonsense , if we sign miller and davis , we will have spent £4.6m already

Well we've sold Sebo so the balance is currently lower than that. I'd be amazed if our overall spend was as low as £3m though.

[minstral 5,375]

i am not sure if i would trust walter to bring in these signings as some of the people we are being linked with is dreadful and no better than what we already have

You just have to laugh - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

FFS - The man who brought us gascoigne and laudrup, laterly Cuellar, THomson, Davis and made McGregor first choice.

Weir, JCD, Cousin and DeBeasley were not bad signings. (Nor to be honest were McCollough nor Dailly).

Faye didn't work, and Gow looks for the off but Naismith may yet become the player we hope.

Yongsters coming through the ranks and getting a game and a UEFA cup final place, 2 trophies after 2 barren years and league only lost on last day.

AND you dont trust the manager - FFS!!!!!!!!

funny why are you not giving us the names of all the pish players that walter signed.

[Howlingmonkey 0]

i am not sure if i would trust walter to bring in these signings as some of the people we are being linked with is dreadful and no better than what we already have

You just have to laugh - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

FFS - The man who brought us gascoigne and laudrup, laterly Cuellar, THomson, Davis and made McGregor first choice.

Weir, JCD, Cousin and DeBeasley were not bad signings. (Nor to be honest were McCollough nor Dailly).

Faye didn't work, and Gow looks for the off but Naismith may yet become the player we hope.

Yongsters coming through the ranks and getting a game and a UEFA cup final place, 2 trophies after 2 barren years and league only lost on last day.

AND you dont trust the manager - FFS!!!!!!!!

funny why are you not giving us the names of all the pish players that walter signed.

There is 3 or 4 he has mentioned that are crap too

[minstral 5,375]

i am not sure if i would trust walter to bring in these signings as some of the people we are being linked with is dreadful and no better than what we already have

You just have to laugh - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

FFS - The man who brought us gascoigne and laudrup, laterly Cuellar, THomson, Davis and made McGregor first choice.

Weir, JCD, Cousin and DeBeasley were not bad signings. (Nor to be honest were McCollough nor Dailly).

Faye didn't work, and Gow looks for the off but Naismith may yet become the player we hope.

Yongsters coming through the ranks and getting a game and a UEFA cup final place, 2 trophies after 2 barren years and league only lost on last day.

AND you dont trust the manager - FFS!!!!!!!!

funny why are you not giving us the names of all the pish players that walter signed.

There is 3 or 4 he has mentioned that are crap too

yes and plenty more.

[PortGlasgow 0]

i am not sure if i would trust walter to bring in these signings as some of the people we are being linked with is dreadful and no better than what we already have

You just have to laugh - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

FFS - The man who brought us gascoigne and laudrup, laterly Cuellar, THomson, Davis and made McGregor first choice.

Weir, JCD, Cousin and DeBeasley were not bad signings. (Nor to be honest were McCulloch nor Dailly).

Faye didn't work, and Gow looks for the off but Naismith may yet become the player we hope.

Youngsters coming through the ranks and getting a game and a UEFA cup final place, 2 trophies after 2 barren years and league only lost on last day.

AND you dont trust the manager - FFS!!!!!!!!

well said

[Dillinger 0]

i am not sure if i would trust walter to bring in these signings as some of the people we are being linked with is dreadful and no better than what we already have

You just have to laugh - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

FFS - The man who brought us gascoigne and laudrup, laterly Cuellar, THomson, Davis and made McGregor first choice.

Weir, JCD, Cousin and DeBeasley were not bad signings. (Nor to be honest were McCollough nor Dailly).

Faye didn't work, and Gow looks for the off but Naismith may yet become the player we hope.

Yongsters coming through the ranks and getting a game and a UEFA cup final place, 2 trophies after 2 barren years and league only lost on last day.

AND you dont trust the manager - FFS!!!!!!!!

I'm laughing alright buddy, but I don't find it all funny. In fact, I find your complacency frightening.

Yes, Walter us brought us Gascoigne and Laudrup - all of twelve years ago. He never used them to their maximum potential and harking back to 9NIAR doesn't helps us now. In fact it's completely irrelevant and nothing more than a smokescreen to deflect attention from the state this club is in.

Cueller, Thomson, et al - still be laughing when one or all of them are sold off? Think it couldn't happen? And, FYI, it was Le Guen, not Walter who made McGregor No1 (albeit reluctantly).

McCullough, Dailly - you're joking, right? Other than being untouchable, just what did they do in the final quarter of the season? Gow has never been given a fair chance and the fact that Walter thought that the hapless Faye could even do a job (at CB!) says a lot about his team selections.

'Youngster coming thorough the ranks' - apart from the already established players (e.g. Adam, McGregor and, of course. Ferguson), Walter has bloodied youngsters grudgingly and in a piecemeal fashion. We are still over-reliant on veterans like Weir, Dailly and JCD and no attempt is being made encourage successors from within. In fact we're spending millions on what is mostly SPL mediocrity (who won't kick a ball anyway) who are no better than what is already in the youth ranks.

'A UEFA Cup Final' - which turned into an on-field surrender, which the manager publically blamed for the loss of the league and which, IMO, a lot of supporters now realize papered over a lot of cracks in the team.

'the league lost on the last day' - that's right, WE lost it, gifting it to an average Celtic side after throwing away a seven point lead. Walter left the changes which should have been made weeks ago (as far back as the 2nd Celtic game) far too late in the day to make any difference, whilst people like yourself were rambling on about 'Helicopter Thursday' like it was a foregone conclusion. Pity Aberdeen never read the script. Fact is, we should never have allowed ourselves to slide into that sort of position.

'two Cups' - OK, a fair point. But the performances in the Final alone, never mind loss of the other two trophies, would have cost Walter his job almost anywhere else in Europe, and how confident were you feeling when Q o S equalized?

Walter has signed as many duds as he has decent players and watching the end of this season was far too much like the end of 10IAR, never mind 'Helicopter Sunday' for my liking. The arrival of Kenny Misser tells me that no lessons have been learned, no changes will be made and nothing is being built or readied for the future. I don't think we have the time merelly to trust Walter and hope for the best.

[Howlingmonkey 0]

Walter should be given the mangers job until the end of human life because he signed Gascoigne and Laudrup

There is fans who actually think this way, what are they on

[lancedeangers1 287]

Another point that was made by SDM in explaining the profit and loss accounts was that transfer fees for players we have purchased are often not paid up front and are split over a period of time.

For example the purchase of M'culloch or even Cuellar may well mean that a significant portion of that fee is still outstanding and will have to be paid this season which has to be taken into account.

The same goes for the sale of Hutton, it seems that although he was sold for around 9 million pounds this is not paid up front in full, so this money may well be paid in installments and even based on appearances etc.

Im not defending SDM unnecessarily here but those points highlight that financial dealings within football clubs are not as straight forward as some may think.