Dingwell

[gunslinger 270]

You could wave a sheet of paper in the air, and claim UEFA have declared you are banned from being found guilty, I am sure M'Lud would be suitably impressed and award you a holiday in Saltcoats. Apparently the waving of a sheet of paper definitely works, according to some who are easily led.

good idea

[gunslinger 270]

heres some stuff to mull over

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4422458.stm

convicted for shouting fenian scum. not just of breach of the peace either.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2009HCJAC59.html

convicted for the famine song and shouting fenain bastards. donald findlay couldnt get them off.

[gunslinger 270]

he appellant was repeatedly shouting "Fenian bastards". The Court does not accept that the appellant was referring to members of the American brotherhood formed in the 1850s. It is within judicial knowledge that the term "Fenian" is used by a certain section of the population to describe a person either of Irish ancestry or even a person of the Roman Catholic faith, whether of Irish ancestry or not. Coupled with the derogatory term "bastard", this is either an expression of religious prejudice or racial bigotry or both. Again, some, perhaps many, persons at a football match are likely to find it offensive

what the judge in the above case had to say about the word fenian.

[MisterC 12,377]

heres some stuff to mull over

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4422458.stm

convicted for shouting fenian scum. not just of breach of the peace either.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2009HCJAC59.html

convicted for the famine song and shouting fenain bastards. donald findlay couldnt get them off.

With the greatest of respect to Mr Findlay, how often do his clients get off with the charges they are facing?

[FTP 3]

With the greatest of respect to Mr Findlay, how often do his clients get off with the charges they are facing?

Donald loves an underdog case.

[MisterC 12,377]

Donald loves an underdog case.

I am well aware of that. Wasnt slagging him off was pointing out he takes on cases where he is highly unlikely to win.

[gunslinger 270]

With the greatest of respect to Mr Findlay, how often do his clients get off with the charges they are facing?

i dont have the stats but i doubt hes the top defence lawyer in the country becaus e he won the title in a cracker.

i think if youre having to suggest d finlay isnt a very good lawyer to win an argument your strugglng.

oh and i saw your avatar inthe sunday world this week.

what a newspaper that is.

[gunslinger 270]

if d findlay cant prove fenian isnt illegal then none will.

[MisterC 12,377]

i dont have the stats but i doubt hes the top defence lawyer in the country becaus e he won the title in a cracker.

i think if youre having to suggest d finlay isnt a very good lawyer to win an argument your strugglng.

oh and i saw your avatar inthe sunday world this week.

what a newspaper that is.

Who says he is the top defence lawyer, has he won an award for this recently? Nothing against him but there are better CDL's in Scotland than him, although he is very good. And as for the avatar, your point is what exactly caller? I had this as my avatar for about 2 weeks now so I dont know what you are suggesting, as if I would read a tabloid anyway, my newspaper tastes are far more highbrow than that.

[gunslinger 270]

Who says he is the top defence lawyer, has he won an award for this recently? Nothing against him but there are better CDL's in Scotland than him, although he is very good. And as for the avatar, your point is what exactly caller? I had this as my avatar for about 2 weeks now so I dont know what you are suggesting, as if I would read a tabloid anyway, my newspaper tastes are far more highbrow than that.

just noticed it and laughed.

though you might be interested.

[FTP 3]

I am well aware of that. Wasnt slagging him off was pointing out he takes on cases where he is highly unlikely to win.

I know pal! I was agreeing.

Some of the cases he obviously gets a fortune from the Government. The Luke Hamilton one I heard he receives a weekly fee yet.

I remember we had a drunken sing song in the Whisky Club in Edinburgh on York Place. LEGEND!!

[MisterC 12,377]

just noticed it and laughed.

though you might be interested.

Fair enough chief

[johanhentze 14,298]

what the judge in the above case had to say about the word fenian.

Its what he had to say about the word 'fenian' coupled with the word 'Bastard' which, if I read correctly, changed it all together.

[gunslinger 270]

Its what he had to say about the word 'fenian' coupled with the word 'Bastard' which, if I read correctly, changed it all together.

It is within judicial knowledge that the term "Fenian" is used by a certain section of the population to describe a person either of Irish ancestry or even a person of the Roman Catholic faith,

do you think coupling it with the notion blood wont see you in trouble.

anyway i am just prooving my point about the term meaning catholic in the eyes of the law.

fenian scum clearly is also illegal. from the first case.

[johanhentze 14,298]

do you think coupling it with the notion blood wont see you in trouble.

anyway i am just prooving my point about the term meaning catholic in the eyes of the law.

fenian scum clearly is also illegal. from the first case.

You are right. Its when its coupled with a word such as Bastard or scum etc, that it changes everything.

[gunslinger 270]

You are right. Its when its coupled with a word such as Bastard or scum etc, that it changes everything.

actually its when you add the word fenian it becomes a religious crime

bastard scum etc is already a crime.

[thebooler 4,509]

or mr dingwall has colluded with moonbeams for his own holy grail-a seat on the board, for that most men would say/see anything

Then they're not fit to serve on the Board of the Rangers.

[thebooler 4,509]

If ALL versions of TBB are banned by anyone other than Rangers FC, is that not discriminatory?

eg Why should Killie fans be able to sing THEIR "version" at Ibrox, if ALL versions are banned?

They can't ban the Rangers support for singing ANY version, if they are going to allow the support of other clubs to sing THEIR version.

This is clear discrimination and could see the club in real trouble if someone was to pursue it.

This is one of the reasons UEFA won't touch it, as it would mean them having to police EVERY support in the country.

[2bob 3]

A RANGERS fan who shouted sectarian abuse during a Scottish Cup tie with Dunfermline has been cleared of committing an offence because nobody was upset by his remark.

John Dryburgh from Glasgow, stood up and yelled “You Fenian bastard!” as his team trailed the Pars by two goals with just 30 minutes of the third round match gone.

Sheriff Ian Dunbar ruled he had not committed a breach of the peace because there was no evidence to suggest that anyone had been upset by what he said.

Dryburgh (27), of O’Neill Avenue, Bishopbriggs, who works as a postman, was sitting in the north-east stand at East End Park along with another 1300 Rangers supporters at the time.

Two security guards employed by Rock Steady event management reported Dryburgh to the police after they saw him stand up and shout the remark as well as the words “Black bastard!” He was pulled from the crowd and taken to town’s police station where he was charged with committing a breach of the peace on January 7 of this year by making religious comments.

Dryburgh denied making the comments when he appeared at Dunfermline Sheriff Court yesterday.

He stood trial before Sheriff Dunbar and maintained the only thing he shouted was “Baldie bastard!” at a linesman after his team were denied a penalty.

Gerrard Carstairs (50), from Dunfermline, was working as a supervisor for Rock Steady and was standing about five rows behind Dryburgh and his friend Stewart Cairns.

He told Depute Fiscal Joanna Nicholson, “I saw a male stand up, cup his hands round his mouth and shout, ‘You Fenian bastard!’

“It is usually a derogatory remark aimed at Catholics.

“It’s something that’s been over a number of years used by Rangers fans towards Celtic fans.”

He reported the matter to a police officer and was told to keep an eye on the accused.

Ten minutes later Dryburgh stood up and shouted, “Black bastard!”

Mr Carstairs spoke to the police again and Dryburgh and Mr Cairns were asked to leave the stand and subsequently arrested. The match ended with a 3-2 victory for Dunfermline.

Mr Cairns was released without charge.

Mr Carstairs insisted it was Dryburgh he had seen stand up and hurl the abuse.

“He drew attention to himself just by standing up,” he said.

His Rock Steady colleague, Linda Clark (40), from Govan, added, “I witnessed a male stand up and shout sectarian abuse, Fenian bastard.

“Shortly after that the words ‘black bastard’ were shouted by the same gentleman.

“I hadn’t taken my eyes off him from the first incident.”

Cross-examined by defence solicitor Lyndsey McCran Miss Clark said there was a sense of “animosity among the Rangers fans,” probably because they were losing.

She confirmed she had heard such remarks before and was not unduly concerned by what was said.

Dryburgh admitted he was upset because Rangers were losing and they had just been denied a penalty.

“The linesman was bald, so I shouted, ‘Baldie bastard!’”

He categorically denied using sectarian language, but admitted it still happened at football matches although not as much as it used to.

“The issue has been brought to the public’s attention,” he said.

His friend, Stewart Cairns (42), of Robroyston, Glasgow, added that he never heard the accused say anything sectarian or use the phrase “black bastard!”

Any shouting they did was directed at the linesman because he was having “rather a bad game.”

Sheriff Dunbar accepted the evidence of Mr Carstairs and Miss Clark that Dryburgh had shouted the abuse.

However, he said the test of whether Dryburgh had committed a breach of the peace had to be whether any reasonable person within the vicinity who heard the remarks was upset by them.

He added that while the remark “Fenian bastard!” may well be offensive, he had to consider the context in which it was used.

Dryburgh was sitting in a stand full of Rangers supporters and there was no evidence he had upset anyone.

“I do not accept an offence has been committed,” he said.

“But that does not mean that to use such words would not be an offence under a different set of circumstances.”

Dryburgh, a lifelong Rangers fan, walked free from the dock

[mairydilk 22]

Can I just ask if people understand why they want these types of thing banned?

Why would any business man want to take over the club when it comes with all this excess and unnecessary baggage? Do you think it reflects well on the club? If you want to stop journalists writing bad things about the club, stop giving them material.

If we want to move forward as a club then we need to ditch all this sectarian stuff and stop living in the past.

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

A RANGERS fan who shouted sectarian abuse during a Scottish Cup tie with Dunfermline has been cleared of committing an offence because nobody was upset by his remark.

John Dryburgh from Glasgow, stood up and yelled “You Fenian bastard!” as his team trailed the Pars by two goals with just 30 minutes of the third round match gone.

Sheriff Ian Dunbar ruled he had not committed a breach of the peace because there was no evidence to suggest that anyone had been upset by what he said.

Dryburgh (27), of O’Neill Avenue, Bishopbriggs, who works as a postman, was sitting in the north-east stand at East End Park along with another 1300 Rangers supporters at the time.

Two security guards employed by Rock Steady event management reported Dryburgh to the police after they saw him stand up and shout the remark as well as the words “Black bastard!” He was pulled from the crowd and taken to town’s police station where he was charged with committing a breach of the peace on January 7 of this year by making religious comments.

Dryburgh denied making the comments when he appeared at Dunfermline Sheriff Court yesterday.

He stood trial before Sheriff Dunbar and maintained the only thing he shouted was “Baldie bastard!” at a linesman after his team were denied a penalty.

Gerrard Carstairs (50), from Dunfermline, was working as a supervisor for Rock Steady and was standing about five rows behind Dryburgh and his friend Stewart Cairns.

He told Depute Fiscal Joanna Nicholson, “I saw a male stand up, cup his hands round his mouth and shout, ‘You Fenian bastard!’

“It is usually a derogatory remark aimed at Catholics.

“It’s something that’s been over a number of years used by Rangers fans towards Celtic fans.”

He reported the matter to a police officer and was told to keep an eye on the accused.

Ten minutes later Dryburgh stood up and shouted, “Black bastard!”

Mr Carstairs spoke to the police again and Dryburgh and Mr Cairns were asked to leave the stand and subsequently arrested. The match ended with a 3-2 victory for Dunfermline.

Mr Cairns was released without charge.

Mr Carstairs insisted it was Dryburgh he had seen stand up and hurl the abuse.

“He drew attention to himself just by standing up,” he said.

His Rock Steady colleague, Linda Clark (40), from Govan, added, “I witnessed a male stand up and shout sectarian abuse, Fenian bastard.

“Shortly after that the words ‘black bastard’ were shouted by the same gentleman.

“I hadn’t taken my eyes off him from the first incident.”

Cross-examined by defence solicitor Lyndsey McCran Miss Clark said there was a sense of “animosity among the Rangers fans,” probably because they were losing.

She confirmed she had heard such remarks before and was not unduly concerned by what was said.

Dryburgh admitted he was upset because Rangers were losing and they had just been denied a penalty.

“The linesman was bald, so I shouted, ‘Baldie bastard!’”

He categorically denied using sectarian language, but admitted it still happened at football matches although not as much as it used to.

“The issue has been brought to the public’s attention,” he said.

His friend, Stewart Cairns (42), of Robroyston, Glasgow, added that he never heard the accused say anything sectarian or use the phrase “black bastard!”

Any shouting they did was directed at the linesman because he was having “rather a bad game.”

Sheriff Dunbar accepted the evidence of Mr Carstairs and Miss Clark that Dryburgh had shouted the abuse.

However, he said the test of whether Dryburgh had committed a breach of the peace had to be whether any reasonable person within the vicinity who heard the remarks was upset by them.

He added that while the remark “Fenian bastard!” may well be offensive, he had to consider the context in which it was used.

Dryburgh was sitting in a stand full of Rangers supporters and there was no evidence he had upset anyone.

“I do not accept an offence has been committed,” he said.

“But that does not mean that to use such words would not be an offence under a different set of circumstances.”

Dryburgh, a lifelong Rangers fan, walked free from the dock

Oh dear Gerrard - you didnt half contradict yourself there.

You are surely not saying ALL Celtc fans are catholics - not multicultural Celtc.

They really want to have their cake and eat it dont they?

I suspect Gerrard was offended but he's not sure exactly what offended him.

[ZX750 31]

Whats the difference between a Fenian bastard and a Hibee bastard or a Dundee bastard?

All forms of sectarianism, racism or prejudice in one way or another yet they get sung at every ground in Scotland?

I'll sing the Billy Boys until my balls get felt, personally. Also the fine from Uefa was for tanning that bus window/ Simply The Best - Hardly befitting a ban for the Billy Boys.

Rangers have shat it, pure and simply.

[Frankie 505]

Also the fine from Uefa was for tanning that bus window/ Simply The Best - Hardly befitting a ban for the Billy Boys.

"Rangers have been fined €19,500 and severely warned about their responsibility for any future misconduct by their fans in relation to sectarian and discriminatory behaviour."

That fine was greater and separate to the €13,000 for "the improper conduct of some of their supporters, notably the smashing of a window of the Villarreal team bus".

The STB/FTP fine was for behaviour the following season against Osasuna in Pamplona.

I agree with many posters that the directive is far from clear (and I'm unsure any song/term is banned by UEFA) but to suggest we weren't punished for singing TBB is also incorrect and unhelpful IMO.

[RFC55 109,773]

2bob that was a good find mate. I had tried looking as i knew i had read of a guy getting away with it but wasnt sure how/when this was!

And gerrard haha ya fenian bastard

Context your honour

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

Paddy McCourts (insert whatever context offends you on any particular day) Fenian army.

Fuxache "fenian" even comes up on my predictive text.

Have I got a sectarian I-phone?

I'm handing myself in to the cops