Dingwell

[gunslinger 270]

But he did lie about ££££££££

to who

it was a lie of omission at best i suspect.

[gunslinger 270]

I think the chap is suggesting the appeal is appealed...

I believe Rangers did consider this at the time but could not do so under UEFA rules. What they should have done is taken the decision to the CAS but decided on the avenue of least resistance (and cost).

cas are very clear that they will not have anything to do with disciplinary matters.

their was no route for appeal. none nads zilch.

all decisions are final and binding.

[Gid 46]

They never fined us for singing the TBB.

Anyway Dingwall claims he saw the letter on UEFA headed notepaper in Murray's office.

That's why his businesses are falling down the pan ... he just leaves important correspondence lying around his office for everyone to read.

[gunslinger 270]

Altho had Rangers appealed that we could have won that. But then again we will never know.

it was literaly impossible to appeal

Anyway Uefa post letter to Rangers, Rangers recieve letter and it says TBB is banned. Rangers flash letter seductively infront of a group of Rangers fans who can confrim it is/isnt banned yet they havent read it?

indeed

Easy solution - Rangers dig out letter and post the UEFA findings on the homepage of the club and that way every single fan knows what the fucks going on

yup would be perfect

[gunslinger 270]

Rangers FC are the only body that can challenge this directive given that it was aimed soley at them and the fans.

Rangers FC do not and will not condone the singing of the Billy Boys therefore the points you make although valid are neutered due to our unwillingness to challenge such an issue.

To challenge it now will see Rangers hammered from pillar to post and the negativity of the media and politicians means that we will be seen throughout the world as a club that condones bigotry.

Like it or not that is the issue facing Rangers and the Support thanks to our unwillingness to challenge this properly when it first happened.

I think if we did sing the Billy Boys at a European Game on a sustained basis we would be up in front of UEFA thanks to our previous charges and the influence our media and politicians would put on UEFA to charge us.

I do however think that if we continue to sing it in Scotland nothing will happen except the usual gnashing of teeth and bleating from the usual suspects.

i suspect your spot on.

as i say a change of words though hard to impliment would solve all the issues.

[2bob 3]

The initial UEFA appeal by Kapl cannot be challenged/overturned under their rules.

Of course if there was a new investigation because of a different warrant in the future, then I'm sure the clarification above would be used. Unfortunately the club have shown little appetite for this; preferring to proscribe the song in question.

I have little doubt UEFA couldn't care less about the song but they've already capitulated under pressure from journalists/fan groups/politians/their own delegates so playing Russian Roulette in this manner is indeed risky if our bluff is called.

It has nothing to do with the directives and all to do with the very obvious fact that UEFA have contravened their own Article 6, I could and would drive a bus through it. There is also the matter of natural justice and precedent, precedent for UEFA's failure to act on far more serious infringements by fans of many other clubs, natural justice in context of said precedents. Many seem to think that two wrongs don't make a right, many many court verdicts would soon disabuse anyone of that notion. UEFA have kicked this firmly into touch, they will never get themselves embroiled again.

[MisterC 12,384]

9 pages in and we only have gunslinger from the Dingwall defence Force posting? Where are all the other apologists?

[Frankie 505]

Easy solution - Rangers dig out letter and post the UEFA findings on the homepage of the club and that way every single fan knows what the fucks going on

I've written to Martin Bain's PA to request this.

Doubt I'll get a reply but worth a try.

[Frankie 505]

It has nothing to do with the directives and all to do with the very obvious fact that UEFA have contravened their own Article 6, I could and would drive a bus through it. There is also the matter of natural justice and precedent, precedent for UEFA's failure to act on far more serious infringements by fans of many other clubs, natural justice in context of said precedents. Many seem to think that two wrongs don't make a right, many many court verdicts would soon disabuse anyone of that notion. UEFA have kicked this firmly into touch, they will never get themselves embroiled again.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

But, in that case, why do Rangers feel pressured enough to make a few recent statements on the subject?

PS: I am aware that apparently a 5 year UEFA probationary period is up next summer which may be affecting their thinking here.

[2bob 3]

Nothing in law is final contrary to that which people believe, even death is not the final arbiter, people wrongly executed for a crime they did not commit have been cleared on later evidence. There is nothing in any court in our society that is not open to appeal and the leave to appeal. Sheer weight of evidence has often forced even the most cover-up orientated verdicts to be quashed, despite the establishment attempting to defeat the ends of justice. Thankfully despite all of the prevarication that ensues, natural justice prevails.

[2bob 3]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

But, in that case, why do Rangers feel pressured enough to make a few recent statements on the subject?

PS: I am aware that apparently a 5 year UEFA probationary period is up next summer which may be affecting their thinking here.

Probationary period is irrelevant since the original directive is fatally flawed under Article 6. As to the club feeling pressured, I don't believe they are pressured at all, I believe there is another motive for these meaningless diktats from Bain,which I may be able to develop at some stage.

[Frankie 505]

Probationary period is irrelevant since the original directive is fatally flawed under Article 6. As to the club feeling pressured, I don't believe they are pressured at all, I believe there is another motive for these meaningless diktats from Bain,which I may be able to develop at some stage.

Please do because, as it stands, I see no reason for the club to be making such statements unless they're being tipped the wink by a friendly face somewhere.

[MrSifter 181]

I'm not sure I understand why fans persist in behaviour that has earned us a slap on the wrists.

What is the fan's endgame and what point are they "proving".

[MisterC 12,384]

Please do because, as it stands, I see no reason for the club to be making such statements unless they're being tipped the wink by a friendly face somewhere.

Perhaps its a reaction by the club to the media attention that other lot and ǝpɐbıɹq uǝǝɹb ǝɥʇ are getting just now. Perhaps the club are making these statements so they are seen to be doing what that lot arent, and that is taking a stand against what they see as 'unacceptable behaviour' for want of a better phrase. Maybe the club is wanting to be seen to have its house in order. Just a thought, however I have noticed that these proclamations from the club have coincided with the arrival of David Martin who seems keen to make a name for himself as some on here have found out.

[Frankie 505]

What is the fan's endgame and what point are they "proving".

Seems simple enough to me? By singing the song and the club having no further censure shows it isn't banned and we have our favourite battle-hymn back.

Of course the club are suggesting we will be punished both by UEFA and the SPL.

[MrSifter 181]

Seems simple enough to me? By singing the song and the club having no further censure shows it isn't banned and we have our favourite battle-hymn back.

Of course the club are suggesting we will be punished both by UEFA and the SPL.

It doesn't show that it isn't banned, I drove at 90mph on the motorway last night, it doesn't prove that the speed limit has changed.

[Frankie 505]

Perhaps its a reaction by the club to the media attention that other lot and ǝpɐbıɹq uǝǝɹb ǝɥʇ are getting just now. Perhaps the club are making these statements so they are seen to be doing what that lot arent, and that is taking a stand against what they see as 'unacceptable behaviour' for want of a better phrase. Maybe the club is wanting to be seen to have its house in order. Just a thought, however I have noticed that these proclamations from the club have coincided with the arrival of David Martin who seems keen to make a name for himself as some on here have found out.

Positive PR is understandable but I don't think we're gaining anything out of these statements in that regard, when all it does is give our critics the chance to raise negative connotations unchallenged again.

[Frankie 505]

It doesn't show that it isn't banned, I drove at 90mph on the motorway last night, it doesn't prove that the speed limit has changed.

If it is banned then the continual singing of it (which we have seen this season) should result in censure.

If you continually drove at that speed on every road past every camera, eventually you'd be pulled up too.

[MisterC 12,384]

Positive PR is understandable but I don't think we're gaining anything out of these statements in that regard, when all it does is give our critics the chance to raise negative connotations unchallenged again.

We certainly are not and giving our enemies even more ammo is not helping. I dont know the guy nut this has David Martins grubby fingerprints all over it.

[Adoniram 1,919]

I'm not sure I understand why fans persist in behaviour that has earned us a slap on the wrists.

What is the fan's endgame and what point are they "proving".

Now what if we had been lied to by UEFA and the Club in a deliberate attempt to stop the fans singing certain songs.

Do we not reserve the right to find out if this is the case and why the club and fans reps felt the need to lie to us if that were to be proved.

[Frankie 505]

We certainly are not and giving our enemies even more ammo is not helping. I dont know the guy nut this has David Martins grubby fingerprints all over it.

I can't see David Martin influencing Bain's way of thinking any more than previous security officers.

[MrSifter 181]

If it is banned then the continual singing of it (which we have seen this season) should result in censure.

If you continually drove at that speed on every road past every camera, eventually you'd be pulled up too.

So the support are continually singing TBB to bottom out whether the song is actually banned or not and are prepared to risk further censure against the Club from governing bodies for the sake of clarity?

[Frankie 505]

So the support are continually singing TBB to bottom out whether the song is actually banned or not and are prepared to risk further censure against the Club from governing bodies for the sake of clarity?

That appears to be the case for some fans, yes.

Like I said earlier, a somewhat risky course of action given what has happened in the recent past but in the absence of less combative solutions, I can understand why they have chosen such a route; even if I may not wholly agree with it.

[MisterC 12,384]

I can't see David Martin influencing Bain's way of thinking any more than previous security officers.

Perhaps but these announcements have coincided with his arrival. I mean up until a few weeks ago the club have been quiet on the singing front now all of a sudden the club are making these announcements.

[Frankie 505]

Perhaps but these announcements have coincided with his arrival. I mean up until a few weeks ago the club have been quiet on the singing front now all of a sudden the club are making these announcements.

Martin has been in the job longer than these announcements - informally at least...

In saying that, perhaps he's the one with contacts that has resulted in them given his police career.