War Year Titles

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

If the kangaroo court does remove titles, and for whatever reason, we can't have the decision overturned, should we consider officially recognising the war titles into our count?

I know this is a passionate subject that will polarise views, but I will give a rationale anyway.

During the war, many men lost their lives, and football was way down the lst of priorities. However, the players of this era still pulled on gers tops and were better than all the other players from all other teams.

Many Gers fans will have lost their lives during this period, but I think if I had been one of them, and was asked (Derek occora permitting). :-

"The sfa / spl are trying to corruptly damage our club. We can count the titles won through the war to screw them over, would this offend you?"

I would not be offended, I would use every bit of ammunition we had.

Rangers fans, here today and long past, I'm sure would be happy to fight our corner with whatever we had at our disposal.

Please, if you have a counter argument, then please post it to begin a discussion.

[hugh_capet 341]

They wont, no.

[Phil 1,150]

The titles won during war years should never be counted, it was not a professional set up and as you say, football was well down the list of priorities.

I say we maintain dignity and never count these titles officially as it is a symbol of respect towards all men who fought, and every team was weakened with men going off to defend our lands.

Sometimes football is the last thing to be remembered or celebrated during times such as those years.

Thats my take anyway

[King Jela 20,927]

No.

[tannerall 25,935]

The titles won during war years should never be counted, it was not a professional set up and as you say, football was well down the list of priorities.

I say we maintain dignity and never count these titles officially as it is a symbol of respect towards all men who fought, and every team was weakened with men going off to defend our lands.

Sometimes football is the last thing to be remembered or celebrated during times such as those years.

Thats my take anyway

Until a few weeks ago I thought this too, but during a recent topic on this subject began to think those may be some of our most important games and titles, so posted the following reasoning:

Its a shame these titles are not allowed. At a time of great hardship and stress things like football along with music, dancing, theatre would have been great morale boosters, and were probably more difficult to organise. Would be interesting to compare attendances if available for these games with pre-war and post-war games. Would there have been a greater interest in these games, and would that reflect their importance ?

And would those serving abroad or in army camps etc around the country or in some unimagible situations not be homesick for their families sweethearts, news from home and might even cling a little to some news about their favourite football teams.

It might be possible that these were the most important times for football teams to carry on as normal, and perhaps we underestimate how important these games would have been ?

[ForeverBlue1872 463]

I think it's a shame the war titles get overlooked, whilst some people will say they will count the 3rd division title etc to our 54 titles when the teams we're playing aren't even fully professionals.

[Phil 1,150]

Until a few weeks ago I thought this too, but during a recent topic on this subject began to think those may be some of our most important games and titles, so posted the following reasoning:

Its a shame these titles are not allowed. At a time of great hardship and stress things like football along with music, dancing, theatre would have been great morale boosters, and were probably more difficult to organise. Would be interesting to compare attendances if available for these games with pre-war and post-war games. Would there have been a greater interest in these games, and would that reflect their importance ?

And would those serving abroad or in army camps etc around the country or in some unimagible situations not be homesick for their families sweethearts, news from home and might even cling a little to some news about their favourite football teams.

It might be possible that these were the most important times for football teams to carry on as normal, and perhaps we underestimate how important these games would have been ?

I can understand where your coming from mate but i just feel that it all pales into insignificance when we remember those who fought.

I feel that no matter how important those titles were, they were not so important that we should now declare them valid.

The decision was taken at the time not to count them as official titles and i feel it would be wrong to change that now.

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

All I would say, is that if the kangaroo court do decide to strip the titles, and we exhaust all avenues to get them back, however unlikely that might be, then we should at least discuss this.

[Thermopylae 15,288]

The titles won during war years should never be counted, it was not a professional set up and as you say, football was well down the list of priorities.

I say we maintain dignity and never count these titles officially as it is a symbol of respect towards all men who fought, and every team was weakened with men going off to defend our lands.

Sometimes football is the last thing to be remembered or celebrated during times such as those years.

Thats my take anyway

Plenty of the early honours in the game are still counted even though the set up then was less than professional

[El Carpintero 546]

Let them try and take our titles.

[tannerall 25,935]

Purely out of curiousity, does anyone know who made the decision these games and titles should not count ?

A certain team, whose name shall not be mentioned still happily count all these games in their records.

This suggests that we made the decision ourselvesnot to count them, (which would be a very gracious and respectful thing to do.)

But if the decision was made by a ruling body it would shed an interesting light on those on the dark side who choose to still include these games in their records.

[tannerall 25,935]

Plenty of the early honours in the game are still counted even though the set up then was less than professional

And the titles of this year and the next 3 years will probably count even though the set up and ruling bodies are less than proffesional.

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

Let them try and take our titles.

Out of curiosity, what do you suggest if they do?

I hope to god violence does not flair if this happens. This would just play into their hands.

We have to e clever at how we play this.

[El Carpintero 546]

Out of curiosity, what do you suggest if they do?

I hope to god violence does not flair if this happens. This would just play into their hands.

We have to e clever at how we play this.

I don't see it getting that far.

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

I don't see it getting that far.

Unfortunately, I do.

I think the pricks already showed their intentions when they tried to force through the title stripping as a condition of membership.

[El Carpintero 546]

Unfortunately, I do.

I think the pricks already showed their intentions when they tried to force through the title stripping as a condition of membership.

They chanced their arm and thankfully Ally told them where to go. Having intentions are completely different from legally being able to do something.

[Thermopylae 15,288]

And the titles of this year and the next 3 years will probably count even though the set up and ruling bodies are less than proffesional.

Only in Scotland can the titles from a one team league have any value

[geronimoo 1,491]

As for the Titles won during the War I know football was not the most important thing but we must consider the guys

who won these titles and ask if they deserve to be up there with every other player who won a title and get recognised for them.

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

They chanced their arm and thankfully Ally told them where to go. Having intentions are completely different from legally being able to do something.

The horrible thing is that I think they can probably strip the titles, and we will find it ery difficult to overturn in court.

I hope to god I'm wrong, but I cannot find a good legal argument to reverse a decision on this, as corrupt as it is.

That's the only reason I'm trying to think of plausible alternative action in retaliation.

[The Hammer 11 2,712]

I thinkk we should also count the world cup we won,yes thats right follks rangers won a world cup before fifa was formed so it's not officialy recognised id love it if we could dig up some more info on it as it's really interesting someone on here found stuff on it a few years ago

[minstral 5,375]

Rangers played Charity matches to help war funds during the war, raising money to help different funds.

[Blumhoilann 6,712]

I thinkk we should also count the world cup we won,yes thats right follks rangers won a world cup before fifa was formed so it's not officialy recognised id love it if we could dig up some more info on it as it's really interesting someone on here found stuff on it a few years ago

Now that would just trump the lot of them....even Engerland

[govanblue 16,847]

Until a few weeks ago I thought this too, but during a recent topic on this subject began to think those may be some of our most important games and titles, so posted the following reasoning:

Its a shame these titles are not allowed. At a time of great hardship and stress things like football along with music, dancing, theatre would have been great morale boosters, and were probably more difficult to organise. Would be interesting to compare attendances if available for these games with pre-war and post-war games. Would there have been a greater interest in these games, and would that reflect their importance ?

And would those serving abroad or in army camps etc around the country or in some unimagible situations not be homesick for their families sweethearts, news from home and might even cling a little to some news about their favourite football teams.

It might be possible that these were the most important times for football teams to carry on as normal, and perhaps we underestimate how important these games would have been ?

I think I repped you for this on that other post. It's a very good point.

What is the harm in counting them as "Unofficial Wartime titles" separately from our official titles. Talking about them is also a good way of honouring the casualties of that war. Quite apposite as we approach 11/11. Lest We Forget.

FYI, here's the details of the wartime record...

(and it comes from a pretty authoritative Internet Archiving source - If they deem them worthy of recording, shouldn't we?)

http://www.rsssf.com...tchamp.html#war

Wartime Leagues 1940-46

During the First World War the Scottish League continued operating pretty much as normal, although the Second Division was suspended from 1915, and some of the more remote clubs (e.g. Aberdeen and Dundee) were temporarily excluded due to travelling difficulties. When war was declared in September 1939, the SFA immediately suspended all football and the League was abandoned after just 5 matches. A few weeks later an emergency competition was organised before the League closed down completely for the war from the summer of 1940. It did authorise member clubs to organise local competitions amongst themselves and separate leagues were organised in the South from autumn 1940 and in the North East from the following year. In season 1945-46 the Scottish League took responsibility for league competition once more and operated two national divisions. These championships are unoffical and are not counted in the totals for each club.

Emergency War League 1939-40

Regional League West: Rangers

Regional League East: Falkirk

Championship play-off: Rangers 2 Falkirk 1

Southern League 1941-45

1941 Rangers

1942 Rangers

1943 Rangers

1944 Rangers

1945 Rangers

North-Eastern League 1941-45

1941 (autumn) Rangers reserves

1942 (spring) Aberdeen

1942 (autumn) Aberdeen

1943 (spring) Aberdeen

1943 (autumn) Raith Rovers

1944 (spring) Aberdeen

1944 (autumn) Dundee

1945 (spring) Aberdeen

Southern League 1945-46

'A' Division: Rangers

'B' Division: Dundee

[AlBear. 8,499]

Just because they aren't included in the 54 doesn't mean they are devalued or over-looked. They are seperate because they are MORE valuable. How can anyone compare a League title won while MILLIONS died to protect the freedom to play football, to a league title won during times of (relative) peace?

We won all 7 World War titles a remarkable achievement. But adding them to the 54, I do not agree with.

If you actually take a minute and think, it sounds like something the scum would do. 'Lets count these ones now and we'll have more'

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,510]

I totally see your point, but im not thinking of it as a case of 'count them and we have more' it is purely as a way of counteracting the SPL if they try to lower our fairly won titles.

If I had been a bear serving in the war, I think I would have backed this action. We would not be devaluing anything, only counting our rightfully won titles. We would know that we were actually just counting the titles we won at peace time, but we could correct the SPL/SFA any time they try to say 'you dont have 54 titles any more'.

Again, this is a course of action I would only back, if there was no way to reverse the kangaroo court decision.