A life too short The tragedy of Robert Enke

[caseyjones 3,009]

You get varying levels of depression, so it's more than just how the person deals with it.

I seriously doubt that someone wakes up one morning with level 10. Everyone has problems, suicide just creates them for even more people. There's always more than one victim.

[derek1872 548]

And to you, pal. I mean is it a forum for Rangers fans FFS.

See what you did there. Funny!

You going to give it a rest or keep following me about like a wee lost puppy dog?

Does it really wind you up that much thinking I'm a tim?

[derek1872 548]

I seriously doubt that someone wakes up one morning with level 10. Everyone has problems, suicide just creates them for even more people. There's always more than one victim.

clueless idiot! Apparently!

[King Jela 20,689]

See what you did there. Funny!

You going to give it a rest or keep following me about like a wee lost puppy dog?

Does it really wind you up that much thinking I'm a tim?

Don't think you're a tim, but definitely not a Rangers man. You don't even watch our games.

Now stop quoting me, stalker.

[JamieD 19,353]

I know this is controversial and many might disagree but I think someone who is an adult taking their own life is a coward. I feel for messed up teenagers doing it but an adult should face the problems rather than devastating the life's of everyone they leave behind.

It's not controversial, just stupid.

[TheKingObv 10,678]

I seriously doubt that someone wakes up one morning with level 10. Everyone has problems, suicide just creates them for even more people. There's always more than one victim.

I see what you're saying. I'd hazard a guess, and from experience, the majority of suicides are a result of something which has stemmed with a problem in their childhood. Before they've got a chance to combat it, it's ingrained deep down and the person is fucked no matter what. I guess it depends how mentally strong you are when you're younger, which isn't really that person's fault.

[JamieD 19,353]

Isn't the only difference the way in which the person deals with it?

God, no.

[derek1872 548]

I see what you're saying. I'd hazard a guess, and from experience, the majority of suicides are a result of something which has stemmed with a problem in their childhood. Before they've got a chance to combat it, it's ingrained deep down and the person is fucked no matter what. I guess it depends how mentally strong you are when you're younger, which isn't really that person's fault.

What was wrong with that reply to what I said in the first place? I would have been happy to have a friendly debate along those line. "clueless idiot" kinda ruins that.

[JamieD 19,353]

I can't imagine anything more difficult than deciding to kill yourself. Something that runs contrary to every single natural instinct. Imagine the nerve you need to have to decide "this will not get better, I can't keep doing this for other people, this agony will never end" when you're constantly lying to yourself that "maybe tomorrow will be better", because you're terrified of the unknown. It doesn't seem remotely cowardly to me. It's harsh and selfish and a whole load of other things that also apply to anybody who would judge them for doing it, but cowardly? No.

[caseyjones 3,009]

God, no.

Why? I realise that there are varying degrees of 'damage' that people suffer, but even those who have had it the toughest manage to combat it. Some wallow in self-pity, while others just get on with it - because they have people who need them to.

Putting aside the matter of whether taking one's own life is a selfish act, jumping in front of a train most definitely is.

True story.

Guy steps off a platform in front of a train doing ninety and dozens of people waiting on the opposite platform are splattered with blood, guts and brain matter.

Should they have been subjected to such a traumatic event because someone felt that they couldn't go on?

What about the train driver, the people who had to come along and gather up the pieces and hose everything down?

[TheKingObv 10,678]

I can't imagine anything more difficult than deciding to kill yourself. Something that runs contrary to every single natural instinct. Imagine the nerve you need to have to decide "this will not get better, I can't keep doing this for other people, this agony will never end" when you're constantly lying to yourself that "maybe tomorrow will be better", because you're terrified of the unknown. It doesn't seem remotely cowardly to me. It's harsh and selfish and a whole load of other things that also apply to anybody who would judge them for doing it, but cowardly? No.

Fantastic post.

[King Jela 20,689]

It's not controversial, just stupid.

Just the usual then.

[JamieD 19,353]

Why? I realise that there are varying degrees of 'damage' that people suffer, but even those who have had it the toughest manage to combat it. Some wallow in self-pity, while others just get on with it - because they have people who need them to.

Putting aside the matter of whether taking one's own life is a selfish act, jumping in front of a train most definitely is.

True story.

Guy steps off a platform in front of a train doing ninety and dozens of people waiting on the opposite platform are splattered with blood, guts and brain matter.

Should they have been subjected to such a traumatic event because someone felt that they couldn't go on?

What about the train driver, the people who had to come along and gather up the pieces and hose everything down?

Do you reject the idea of clinical depression then?

There are people who feel shit and hate their life because it's not very satisfying, and when those people kill themselves, maybe they should have just taken steps towards improving their lives. They were weak. Fair enough.

There are other people who, no matter what they do, go through life fighting a brain that wants to kill them. When it succeeds, I dont judge them.

[caseyjones 3,009]

I can't imagine anything more difficult than deciding to kill yourself. Something that runs contrary to every single natural instinct. Imagine the nerve you need to have to decide "this will not get better, I can't keep doing this for other people, this agony will never end" when you're constantly lying to yourself that "maybe tomorrow will be better", because you're terrified of the unknown. It doesn't seem remotely cowardly to me. It's harsh and selfish and a whole load of other things that also apply to anybody who would judge them for doing it, but cowardly? No.

Those who wipe out their own family before taking their own life must be the pinnacle of bravery then.

[JamieD 19,353]

Those who wipe out their own family before taking their own life must be the pinnacle of bravery then.

This is just a daft post, Casey.

[caseyjones 3,009]

Do you reject the idea of clinical depression then?

There are people who feel shit and hate their life because it's not very satisfying, and when those people kill themselves, maybe they should have just taken steps towards improving their lives. They were weak. Fair enough.

There are other people who, no matter what they do, go through life fighting a brain that wants to kill them. When it succeeds, I dont judge them.

I've said it before, and I've no doubt that I'll say it again, but you're a far better man than me.

[JamieD 19,353]

I've said it before, and I've no doubt that I'll say it again, but you're a far better man than me.

It has nothing to do with being a better man, or even compassionate. I just don't see how it's cause for contempt when a person who wasn't made to bear a certain weight eventually breaks under that weight. And I believe that there is a difference between unhappiness and depression. I too would judge a person for killing himself merely because he was unhappy.

[kaiser1041 9,102]

Davie weir recommended this book a while ago aswell so ill have a look. Sorry to get off topic

[derek1872 548]

I too would judge a person for killing himself merely because he was unhappy.

Who is to say what constitutes unhappiness and what is depression though? How can you judge only on certain occasions?

[JamieD 19,353]

Who is to say what constitutes unhappiness and what is depression though? How can you judge only on certain occasions?

I think that probably very few people actually kill themselves for trivial reasons. In Enke's case, he had been suffering from clinical depression for which he was receiving treatment for six years. I'm sure if it was as simple as "pull yourself together", he would have done so. He had plenty to live for. That he didn't live is testament to what he was fighting against.

[derek1872 548]

I think that probably very few people actually kill themselves for trivial reasons. In Enke's case, he had been suffering from clinical depression for which he was receiving treatment for six years. I'm sure if it was as simple as "pull yourself together", he would have done so. He had plenty to live for. That he didn't live is testament to what he was fighting against.

I'm not using the Enke case as the sole example of the difference between unhappiness and depression. I'm aware he had a lot of problems. What I'm saying is how can you judge based on wether its down to unhappiness rather than depression when you can't always know the difference.

Purely hypothetical sitution here but what if you know someone, you reckon they are a miserable bastard, that person goes to the doctors who in turn tells him he is unhappy. Everyone around him thinks he is just a miserable bastard. He tops himself. Do you judge him?

Surely its impossible to answer as you can't know for sure if that person was unhappy or suffering depression.

[JamieD 19,353]

I'm not using the Enke case as the sole example of the difference between unhappiness and depression. I'm aware he had a lot of problems. What I'm saying is how can you judge based on wether its down to unhappiness rather than depression when you can't always know the difference.

Purely hypothetical sitution here but what if you know someone, you reckon they are a miserable bastard, that person goes to the doctors who in turn tells him he is unhappy. Everyone around him thinks he is just a miserable bastard. He tops himself. Do you judge him?

Surely its impossible to answer as you can't know for sure if that person was unhappy or suffering depression.

If it's impossible to know, err on the side of decency and don't call the person a coward. Simple.

[derek1872 548]

If it's impossible to know, err on the side of decency and don't call the person a coward. Simple.

I still think the act of suicide is cowardly. I'm not changing on that. The lifes that get fucked because of one person killing themselves is far beyond anything else. To call it a brave act is bewildering to me.

Obviously I should't generalise as in some cases people are beyond help. In these cases the people are not brave, They just have nothing else.

[JamieD 19,353]

I still think the act of suicide is cowardly. I'm not changing on that. The lifes that get fucked because of one person killing themselves is far beyond anything else. To call it a brave act is bewildering to me.

Obviously I should't generalise as in some cases people are beyond help. In these cases the people are not brave, They just have nothing else.

Who said it was brave?

[TheKingObv 10,678]

My dad committed suicide and it hasn't fucked up any of our lives. Don't view it as selfish or cowardly at all. If you experience anyone who suffers depression for decades then it's impossible to blame them for any suicidal actions.