Billy Boys UEFA letter .....

[Deanzmeanzheinz 4,312]

Just now, Sweetheart said:

 I believe if we fight to get the song 'officially legalised', everyone would abide by the words

Fair enough ?

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

1 minute ago, Deanzmeanzheinz said:

In this day and age you would have no chance of getting approval of wading in in someone else's blood. That's just the way it is. 

The line contained in the song would definetly incur a possible consequence of arrest & conviction - with a custodial sentence as Scott Lamont found out.

The real question is how would things stand legally if the lyrics were changed and the offending line dropped - my own opinion would be that it would extrememly difficult to secure a conviction based solely on a tune (Marching through Georgia). Thats the official line - personally I think the PF wouldnt pursue it as it would get laughed out of court.

However given the UEFA ruling on the song - the club may still be liable to a fine - though you would hope the club would challenge any such decision as the original ruling is neither proportionate nor balanced.

 

[Sweetheart 8,458]

2 minutes ago, D'Artagnan said:

The line contained in the song would definetly incur a possible consequence of arrest & conviction - with a custodial sentence as Scott Lamont found out.

The real question is how would things stand legally if the lyrics were changed and the offending line dropped - my own opinion would be that it would extrememly difficult to secure a conviction based solely on a tune (Marching through Georgia). Thats the official line - personally I think the PF wouldnt pursue it as it would get laughed out of court.

However given the UEFA ruling on the song - the club may still be liable to a fine - though you would hope the club would challenge any such decision as the original ruling is neither proportionate nor balanced.

 

I agree D'art. fans need to see what was in that UEFA letter from there they can get a lawyer and get the song 'officially legalised' by the courts. I agree the tune shouldn't be seen as a problem as it is used all over the world.

[RFCRobertson 11,778]

7 minutes ago, D'Artagnan said:

The line contained in the song would definetly incur a possible consequence of arrest & conviction - with a custodial sentence as Scott Lamont found out.

The real question is how would things stand legally if the lyrics were changed and the offending line dropped - my own opinion would be that it would extrememly difficult to secure a conviction based solely on a tune (Marching through Georgia). Thats the official line - personally I think the PF wouldnt pursue it as it would get laughed out of court.

However given the UEFA ruling on the song - the club may still be liable to a fine - though you would hope the club would challenge any such decision as the original ruling is neither proportionate nor balanced.

 

I'm sure there has been "safe" versions put out before, there's the Rangers version which change a lot of the lyrics and there has been versions that simply change Fenian blood to Big Trophies or E.B.T.s 

Surely we'd get to sing that if the likes of Hearts and Killie sing their own version. Hell doesn't one of the versions have the line "up to our knees in arab blood"? 

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

1 minute ago, RFCRobertson said:

I'm sure there has been "safe" versions put out before, there's the Rangers version which change a lot of the lyrics and there has been versions that simply change Fenian blood to Big Trophies or E.B.T.s 

Surely we'd get to sing that if the likes of Hearts and Killie sing their own version. Hell doesn't one of the versions have the line "up to our knees in arab blood"? 

Thats the nature of the debate in the other thread about the Liaison Committee Robbo. Plod have told the committee even with the lyrics changed it is still unacceptable - thats not for them to decide - its the courts who will determine that.

[Sweetheart 8,458]

9 minutes ago, D'Artagnan said:

Thats the nature of the debate in the other thread about the Liaison Committee Robbo. Plod have told the committee even with the lyrics changed it is still unacceptable - thats not for them to decide - its the courts who will determine that.

Is there any indication from the liason committee to take it to court using

 http://www.rangersfansfightingfund.uk/currentfund.html

[Virtuoso 27,180]

1 hour ago, thehost said:

Just for clarification here. No one has seen this "letter". This "letter" does not exist. The only thing "seen" was the back of a "letter".

YES A PLAIN PIECE OF PAPER.

the fan reps ran off towing the company line that the song was banned on the basis of a cosy wee meet with bain where he held up a piece of paper and they only saw the blank side

to this day no one has seen this letter, probably down to the fact that it obviously doesn't exist, at least in the format of uefa banning a song

The letter doesn't exist, never has done, but it suited Dingwall to peddle the line it did.

[Ferris Bueller 1,569]

Have UEFA been approached to supply a copy of the letter?

The only issue with TBB is the one line, if this is changed i don't see how anyone can be prosecuted/fined etc. for singing the song.

[RFC55 108,937]

5 minutes ago, Ferris Bueller said:

Have UEFA been approached to supply a copy of the letter?

The only issue with TBB is the one line, if this is changed i don't see how anyone can be prosecuted/fined etc. for singing the song.

Only way they'd do that would be to the club themselves mate. I don't think just anyone could receive a copy of it.

[cushynumber 25,178]

1 hour ago, Sweetheart said:

Host Please read this from 2006 .....

Joint Supporter/Club Statement

AT the request of a cross-section of Rangers Supporters, a meeting was
held last night with Chairman, David Murray and Chief Executive, Martin
Bain to discuss what the fans can collectively do to assist the Club in
their ongoing efforts to silence the Sectarian minority who continue to
damage the Club's reputation.

A positive debate was held at Murray Park and all parties are united in
a bid to silence the minority that continue to tarnish the reputation
of Rangers Football Club. It was obvious from last night's meeting that
the recent fines imposed by UEFA and the associated press coverage has
been detrimental to the Club and to the individuals who genuinely
support Rangers for its football and true values.It has been agreed
between members of the Club's Board and representatives of the fan base
that in the coming weeks this joint committee will do everything in
their power to ensure that the Club does not breach the UEFA directives
and implore upon the fans that self policing among the support is key
to avoid sanctions being imposed or expulsion from European competition
altogether.

David Murray commented: "These supporters groups represented should be
applauded for coming forward in recognition of the importance of this
issue. I am delighted at the progress we made last night."Over the last
two years the Club has strived fervently under the banner of Pride over
Prejudice working with the authorities to impose indefinite and
lifetime bans. "I look forward in the coming weeks to implementing some
of the actions that were discussed.It is absolutely clear to all
concerned that all Supporters need to commit to silencing the
minority."This meeting coincidently coincided with UEFA's written
grounds for the decision rendered by the Appeal Body in relation to
Rangers two Champions League matches against Villarreal.

UEFA have issued the Club with certain directives in order to combat
sectarianism more efficiently.Firstly the Club has been 'ordered to
announce measurable targets in order to reduce sectarian behaviour
amongst its supporters'.Secondly 'to control their anti-sectarian
activities by producing comprehensive statistics that are communicated
to the public'.

Finally 'to make a public address announcement at every official
fixture, be it international or domestic, stating that any sectarian
chanting and any form of 'Billy Boys' songs is strictly prohibited.'

David Edgar of the Rangers Supporters Trust, Mark Dingwall of Follow
Follow and Jim Templeton of the Rangers Supporters Assembly jointly
agreed the following Statement:"The message now could not be clearer
that the spotlight is upon the Supporters and the Club and it is their
duty to work together to stamp out the minority who are damaging the
reputations of all those connected with Rangers Football Club."Not only
does this small minority tarnish the reputation of Rangers, but of
Scottish football and our society in general and hopefully anyone who
is interested in Scottish football will work with us in assisting to
eradicate this behaviour."Supporter Representatives

Jim Templeton Assembly President

Alex Milree Chairman of the Scottish Alliance Delegates

Mark Dingwall Follow Follow/ Rangers Supporters Trust

James Carlin The Blue Order

Simon Leslie The Blue Order

Tam Green Lanarkshire Supporters Representative

David Edgar Rangers Supporters Trust, Media Spokesperson

Ross Blyth Fife and District supporters club representative

Malcolm McNiven Rangers Supporters Trust, Chairman
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.sport.football.clubs.rangers/2006-06/msg00033.html

that statement is a fucking disgrace.

[Ferris Bueller 1,569]

2 hours ago, Rfc52 said:

Only way they'd do that would be to the club themselves mate. I don't think just anyone could receive a copy of it.

This is the type of issue that club1872 needs to be raising and dealing with along side the club (don't want this becomming a club1872 debate again) but this is in my mind what it is for.

 

[One Jock Wallace 858]

I posted this in another thread on the topic of TBB being banned. The following are extracts of my response from FoCUS (I have highlighted what I consider important to this debate) :

"In answering your enquiry I must make clear that this is based upon my experience of working with the Football Coordination Unit for Scotland (FoCUS) over the past few years and does not represent an official corporate Police Scotland response.

Police Scotland has no list of 'banned songs'.  However, we are aware of the types of behaviour which have resulted in conviction at court and these include:

·         derogatory comments towards another religion or religious figures;

·         derogatory comments towards another group which is perceived to be affiliated to a particular religion;

·         racist comments (often towards players);

·         threatening words and / or actions;

·         songs which show support for terrorism / terrorist groups

In terms of which version of the Billy Boys may or may not be sung, I am not prepared to endorse any song which sings about being up to one's knees in anyone's blood, irrespective of whose blood it is or whether or not the lyrics could result in criminal charges.  FoCUS has always tried to promote the message that supporters should positively support their team and should steer clear of material which is offensive or distasteful.  Given the range of football songs which do not involve inappropriate lyrics, there should be sufficient choice to keep all supporters engaged with generating a good atmosphere at games whilst avoiding the risk of prosecution.

In relation to singing of the Billy Boys, omission of the reference to 'Fenian blood' may indeed mean that individuals do not face action by police.  However, this very much depends on what, if anything, these words are replaced by.  If you simply missed that line out, which many individuals do, then provided you haven't inserted something else which is offensive or threatening into the lyrics (or associated gestures etc), I don't believe that you will have committed an offence. 

Where alternative lyrics including offensive or threatening words are used individuals may still face arrest and prosecution.  Ultimately the test of what is criminal is a decision for the Court and as the full range of alternative lyrics have not been tested through the Courts yet I prefer to advise individuals to steer clear of anything which could be deemed offensive or threatening, hence my original response.  In a modern progressive democracy I don't think celebrating being up to one's knees in the opposition's blood is acceptable under any circumstances.

In relation to the legislation being applied, I can assure you that we have put great effort into educating our colleagues and working with external partner agencies to ensure policing at football is consistent wherever it takes place in Scotland.  What you see and hear in the media may not always be reflective of the work that is ongoing within Police Scotland, sometimes due to legal constraints and sometimes due to media outlets / social media highlighting some aspects while not highlighting others.  Over the past few years I've been accused by fans from both sides of the Old Firm of unfairly targeting them while allowing the 'other side' to offend with impunity and I would argue that both are wrong in that interpretation as my team has always simply looked at the behaviour, not the club supported, and if we believe the behaviour to be criminal, we will take action.    

In relation to use of the word 'H**' this has been discussed with some Rangers FC supporter representatives (Fans Working Group) and at their request I contacted Crown Office for guidance.  Our current guidance is that in the absence of other aggravating behaviour, use of this word on its own would not support criminal charges". 

So I think its quite clear that the tune is not banned (from the Police`s perspective) and its just a case of changing the lyrics to something non offensive or threatening. It may then be tested in court but I would suggest it wouldn`t get that far as it would be a very weak case. I`d also like add that the officer who answered my enquiries was very helpul, they answered all questions possible, then referred me to the Crown Office who`s response was dissapointing as they never actually provided any answer.

[ianb1547 3,767]

This is what UEFA published themselves at the time.

Published: Wednesday 12 April 2006, 2.42CET Rangers FC have been fined following incidents in their tie with Villarreal CF.

Scottish club Rangers FC have been fined €13,000 for incidents at their UEFA Champions League first knockout round tie against Spanish outfit Villarreal CF last month.

Crowd disturbances: UEFA's Control and Disciplinary Body imposed the fine on Rangers following the improper conduct of some of their supporters, notably the smashing of a window of the Villarreal team bus at the second-leg match in Spain on 7 March.

Discriminatory chants: The body declared the Rangers fans not guilty of alleged discriminatory chants at both legs of the tie, which Villarreal won on the away-goals rule after the two sides had finished 3-3 on aggregate. This decision can be appealed against within three days of receiving the written grounds for the verdict, in which the reasonings will be explained. . ©UEFA.com 1998-2015. All rights reserved

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Brian Fantana 28,894]

wonder what police scotland would do if we had a banner which simply had "We Are The Billy Boys" on it.

[Thermopylae 15,286]

The whole thing stinks European football is full of songs about blood and guts (French national anthem for example)  why should we have been singled out?

[chepooka 126]

Marchons, marchons!
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons!

Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Soak our fields!

 

Which is nice

[Sweetheart 8,458]

10 hours ago, One Jock Wallace said:

  Ultimately the test of what is criminal is a decision for the Court and as the full range of alternative lyrics have not been tested through the Courts

Imho, This is why it needs to go to court, The judge may rule it an historical song and words may not have to be change. If words do need to be change then the court can officially legalise the lyrics

[Guest]

Something something Kenny Millers neighbours read it

[siddiqi_drinker 14,635]

How about C1872 contact the SFA to ascertain their position on songs which may be banned, ask for a list.  As for UEFA, let's cross that bridge when we're back in Europe.  

[Thewhitesettler 2,711]

I may be wrong, however, I don't think that UEFA has the authority to ban songs. 

They may say that songs, deemed sectarian, sung at football matches, will result in the club being fined, or some other disciplinary sanction.

The offending line, if removed from TBB, may not make it alright to sing, as the song may well be deemed sectarian.

[Chineseboy 1,563]

Stupid laws are made to be broken, and should always be contested. People who simply think accepting that the song is banned are the type who will never stand up against oppression. Changing " fenian" to " celtic" is fine , many clubs do it with their own version , but we are banned. Christ, folk accepting this law would probably still accept apartheid .....was that a good set of laws, no, of course not, hence it was contested. So if you think we should carry on just accepting it, then you are an idiot. This is a basic freedom of speech being narrowed down to one particular group of people...Rangers fans, which is, basically , bigotry. Accept it and move on, yeh right, that just gives them Carte Blanche to do whatever they want. No surrender !

[macranger 296]

I've said this on umpteen threads about the Billy Boys. Instead of the "we're up to our knees in f**nian blood, surrender or you'll die", we should sing, "We'll sing the sash & Derrys walls, surrender or you'll die". It takes the offending words out, but still gives us that wee bit of a dig. 

[Thermopylae 15,286]

On 8/25/2016 at 7:22 AM, pollok-bear said:

 

 

On 8/25/2016 at 8:09 AM, Sweetheart said:

The courts can agree to a change of words so that the song becomes legal. Then when it is sung there's no come backs for the club or fans being arrested.

The fenians are not a religion so how can it be sectarian?

[Thermopylae 15,286]

7 hours ago, Chineseboy said:

Stupid laws are made to be broken, and should always be contested. People who simply think accepting that the song is banned are the type who will never stand up against oppression. Changing " fenian" to " celtic" is fine , many clubs do it with their own version , but we are banned. Christ, folk accepting this law would probably still accept apartheid .....was that a good set of laws, no, of course not, hence it was contested. So if you think we should carry on just accepting it, then you are an idiot. This is a basic freedom of speech being narrowed down to one particular group of people...Rangers fans, which is, basically , bigotry. Accept it and move on, yeh right, that just gives them Carte Blanche to do whatever they want. No surrender !

I think Protestants are inherently law abiding ... suffice it to say if the boot was on the other foot the great unwashed would never accept a ban on one of their songs least of all their favourite one

[Thermopylae 15,286]

23 hours ago, chepooka said:

Marchons, marchons!
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons!

Let's march, let's march!
Let an impure blood
Soak our fields!

 

Which is nice

Exactly writing things in blood to make a point is as old as the human race