The league must be voided

[eskbankloyal 19,446]

1 minute ago, eejay the dj said:

What about our brave souls down Ibrox way 

What does your crystal ball say on that ?

No idea. But I wouldn’t hold out much hope personally.

As the Dude says, everybody is fairly agreed that the SPFL interpretation of the rulebook is correct 

[HuistraHairDo 12,499]

6 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Karren Brady was talking about the PL. Which uses a different set of rules. Her quote is as relevant as me quoting the Seattle Sounders manager.

Not really when we are all under UEFA  rules, Seattle is in America.

I would rather listen to someone at the top level of football that a part time journo on a football forum fwiw

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

11 minutes ago, The Dude said:

The Thistle/Queens one is the biggest one for me given the situation around the games/points.

I'm hopefully speaking to one of the four you mentioned this afternoon so will have a bit more of an idea where they are on this - although last week they seemed prepared to accept it.

I'd be stunned if UEFA dictate what happens simply because of the sheer amount of variance across all 55 members. Some nations think they'll be back playing soon, others could be September. They'll give domestic associations a deadline at best imo.

That is exactly why they should get involved.

They are the governing body of the lot of them, so they should be putting a plan in place to ensure consistency across the board.

It will be a farce if in one country, a team is 1 point ahead, and they are granted the title.

In another country a team are 20 points ahead and are refused the title.

It makes a mockery of the sport and someone has to step in and provide a consistent approach for all members to adhere to.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 minute ago, HuistraHairDo said:

Not really when we are all under UEFA  rules, Seattle is in America.

I would rather listen to someone at the top level of football that a part time journo on a football forum fwiw

There are no UEFA rules. 

I'd rather listen to representatives of clubs who are on the SPFL board (who are making the decision) rather than random punters on a forum. And I have. 

Also, I'm full time. 

[MurrayWilson 3,433]

20 minutes ago, HuistraHairDo said:

Karen Brady says your talking shite @The Dude

No way can you hand a title to anyone or relegate anyone when a competition fails to complete 

Doesn't surprise me that you are pushing the tarrier agenda tho, your podcast pals will be so proud of you

What does she know though? Shes only been running football clubs at the top level for 20 years for fuck sake.

[Howsitgoing 4,281]

1 hour ago, The Dude said:

Can you quote Hearts' lawyer? All that Heart have said is that a legal challenge isn't off the table.

C38 makes no mention of the number of games. Only who has most points at the end of the Season. The number of games are moot if the Season is determined to have ended.

C13 rule  say that one season must have 38 games played, rules A3 does allow this to be breached but that doesn’t mean that it’s irrelevant. 

The season consist of 38 games, A3 determines that C38 is unenforceable because of that. No one  can win the league. 

[writingranger 1,423]

8 minutes ago, The Dude said:

Karren Brady was talking about the PL. Which uses a different set of rules. Her quote is as relevant as me quoting the Seattle Sounders manager.

Unless spfl follow the PL's lead.

Clearly the rules are different and it would be a travesty for liverpool as they had all but won.

I think the feeling on here would be even stronger if we'd played and won at ibrox and much weaker if we'd not.

As I said the last time. It's a title celtic would likely have won, instead they'll be "awarded " it and they can't win the the treble which, in the end they'll feel aggrieved about. Good.

Probably time to move on. There are lots of implications for us and other teams financially,  in terms of contracts, transfers and so on. Not to mention the ongoing health crisis

[SIRB_72 4,003]

If the league didn't resume as normal I have no doubt celtic would be awarded the title.

We're talking about the dirtiest club in the world who have covered up paedophilia for decades. This is a club who we all know put everything into putting us as far away from them as possible. If it suits celtic it will happen, it happened in 08, it happened in 2012 and unfortunately it will happen here.

They've been wanting titles on paper for as long as they've existed because they believe it's their somehow their clubs right and they're finally going to literally have a title awarded on paper. They basically did it in 2012 to the detriment of Scottish football and they all lapped it up and they will again. 

People talking about lost revenue for clubs, I have no doubt this will again be found and probably by that same dirty club for their backing. Again this is the same club that dodged tax through certain dodgy investments with a film company.

It kills me to say it but this horrible club has so much influence financially, politically and on the admin side in Scottish football that I can only see this going one way. Call me paranoid or whatever but deep down we all know it's the case.

 

[The Dude 20,026]

2 minutes ago, mitre_mouldmaster said:

That is exactly why they should get involved.

They are the governing body of the lot of them, so they should be putting a plan in place to ensure consistency across the board.

It will be a farce if in one country, a team is 1 point ahead, and they are granted the title.

In another country a team are 20 points ahead and are refused the title.

It makes a mockery of the sport and someone has to step in and provide a consistent approach for all members to adhere to.

Doesn't it make a mockery of the sport that the team in sixth can have fewer points than the one in seventh? 

Or that teams can play someone away three times while their title contenders play the same team three times at home? 

UEFA AREN'T the governing body of the relevant domestic leagues. In Scotland that's the SPFL. 

How do you put a consistent approach in place when no set of circumstances are the same? How does Scotland and Ireland deal with the same outcome when one plays a summer season and one a winter season? 

[The Dude 20,026]

2 minutes ago, Howsitgoing said:

C13 rule  say that one season must have 38 games played, rules A3 does allow this to be breached but that doesn’t mean that it’s irrelevant. 

The season consist of 38 games, A3 determines that C38 is unenforceable because of that. No one  can win the league. 

C38 makes no mention of games . Only that the Season is over. The Season will be over.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 minute ago, writingranger said:

Unless spfl follow the PL's lead.

Clearly the rules are different and it would be a travesty for liverpool as they had all but won.

I think the feeling on here would be even stronger if we'd played and won at ibrox and much weaker if we'd not.

As I said the last time. It's a title celtic would likely have won, instead they'll be "awarded " it and they can't win the the treble which, in the end they'll feel aggrieved about. Good.

Probably time to move on. There are lots of implications for us and other teams financially,  in terms of contracts, transfers and so on. Not to mention the ongoing health crisis

Why would they follow another leagues rule book when they have their own? That's an even more dangerous path than going by your own rules.

[The Dude 20,026]

4 minutes ago, MurrayWilson said:

What does she know though? Shes only been running football clubs at the top level for 20 years for fuck sake.

In a different country under different rules.

Does she know more about the SPFL rules than a member of the SPFL board?

[weejoseph 2,773]

Out of curiosity what do you think should happen James? 

[pcbear 10,924]

It just shows you that when a curve ball is thrown, nobody has a fucking clue what to do.

It is a mad situation and the world we lived in a week ago bears no resemblance to the world we live in today, football is way down the list and the knock on of this in all walks of life will be massive.

I was hoping  and still do that it is a mega over reaction by the media, but as time goes by its becoming harder to see this drama just slipping away as quickly as it arrived here.

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, weejoseph said:

Out of curiosity what do you think should happen James? 

They enforce their rulebook.

I think ending the season now and keeping the standing is better for more clubs than voiding it completely and would leave far less likelihood of legal challenges and clubs going to the wall.

There's no ideal solution though. Voiding it fucks people over, keeping it fucks people over.

The very least I'd expect the league to do in the first instance would be to enforce their rules and wee where it ends up.

[MurrayWilson 3,433]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Why would they follow another leagues rule book when they have their own? That's an even more dangerous path than going by your own rules.

Im gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that what youre doing is simply giving us youre take on what happens based on youre interpretation of the rules even if you seem a little too smug in the way you are conveying it. Leave aside the matter of making a team champions who haven't actually won it, do you think its morally acceptable to relegate a team who could still stay up? disregard the rule book for a moment and answer me that. After that im out of this.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 minute ago, pcbear said:

It just shows you that when a curve ball is thrown, nobody has a fucking clue what to do.

It is a mad situation and the world we lived in a week ago bears no resemblance to the world we live in today, football is way down the list and the knock on if this in all walks of life will be massive.

I was hoping  and still do that it is a mega over reaction by the media, but as time goes by its becoming harder to see this drama just slipping away as quickly as it arrived here.

I asked a club director what contingencies they had in place for closed-doord games or a shutdown and got a shrug of the shoulders. Nobody is prepared for anything like this.

[Howsitgoing 4,281]

5 minutes ago, The Dude said:

C38 makes no mention of games . Only that the Season is over. The Season will be over.

Throughout the rule book the determination of the season finishing is the completion of a set number of games. 33 brings it up to the split etc. 
To use A3 to breach what is a fundamental issue in regarding the definition of the season will bankrupt Scottish football and I hope Rangers are leading by the front to achieve this. 

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Doesn't it make a mockery of the sport that the team in sixth can have fewer points than the one in seventh? 

Or that teams can play someone away three times while their title contenders play the same team three times at home? 

UEFA AREN'T the governing body of the relevant domestic leagues. In Scotland that's the SPFL. 

How do you put a consistent approach in place when no set of circumstances are the same? How does Scotland and Ireland deal with the same outcome when one plays a summer season and one a winter season? 

Pretty easily to be honest.

You set some bench marks that can be applied. I will have a go at some that take me about 1 minute to create.

1. Leagues are voided and declared null if less than 50% of matches have been played.

2. No champions are declared in leagues where over 50% of matches and under 80% of matches have been completed, but final league positions are held for administrative purposes.

3. In cases where over 80% of matches have been completed league positions will be held as final and champions will be crowned. 

4. In cases where the current league leader has completed between 50% and 80% of their matches, and holds a lead of more than 50% of the theoretical points up for grabs, then they would be declared champion. 

5. In cases where teams in the respective leagues have played a different number of games, results will be rolled back to when each team was level on games, or each team who holds a game in hand will be assumed to have won and been granted 3 points (This would mean 6 points in some games).

These are rules I have thrown together in a couple of minutes, so no doubt people could pick holes in them, but im sure with a vast legal team, someone else could come up with something more robust that follows the same type of method.

 

 

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, MurrayWilson said:

Im gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that what youre doing is simply giving us youre take on what happens based on youre interpretation of the rules even if you seem a little too smug in the way you are conveying it. Leave aside the matter of making a team champions who haven't actually won it, do you think its morally acceptable to relegate a team who could still stay up? disregard the rule book for a moment and answer me that. After that im out of this.

If the season is ended early, they couldn't catch them. that's the point. I think, morally, its more acceptable to retain what has happened and is in the history books than pretending the last eight months simply never existed.

If the season is shortened to the last completed round of fixtures, then Hearts deserve to go down. Its not ideal but its the best of a lot of very bad options.

[weejoseph 2,773]

Just now, The Dude said:

They enforce their rulebook.

I think ending the season now and keeping the standing is better for more clubs than voiding it completely and would leave far less likelihood of legal challenges and clubs going to the wall.

There's no ideal solution though. Voiding it fucks people over, keeping it fucks people over.

The very least I'd expect the league to do in the first instance would be to enforce their rules and wee where it ends up.

I just cannot get my head round why any Rangers supporter would ever accept or in your case, champion the idea of keeping the standings!? 

To top it off you use “clubs” as a reason for justification!? Where the fuck were the other clubs 8 years ago?

What right minded Rangers supporter thinks like this because I certainly don’t know any who would just lay their and grunt like you do. 

 

[The Dude 20,026]

Just now, mitre_mouldmaster said:

Pretty easily to be honest.

You set some bench marks that can be applied. I will have a go at some that take me about 1 minute to create.

1. Leagues are voided and declared null if less than 50% of matches have been played.

2. No champions are declared in leagues where over 50% of matches and under 80% of matches have been completed, but final league positions are held for administrative purposes.

3. In cases where over 80% of matches have been completed league positions will be held as final and champions will be crowned. 

4. In cases where the current league leader has completed between 50% and 80% of their matches, and holds a lead of more than 50% of the theoretical points up for grabs, then they would be declared champion. 

5. In cases where teams in the respective leagues have played a different number of games, results will be rolled back to when each team was level on games, or each team who holds a game in hand will be assumed to have won and been granted 3 points (This would mean 6 points in some games).

These are rules I have thrown together in a couple of minutes, so no doubt people could pick holes in them, but im sure with a vast legal team, someone else could come up with something more robust that follows the same type of method.

 

 

Why 80% as the threshold to declare champions?

What if leagues wth under 50% games played are confident they can finish their season within the usual timescale? Why should their season be voided and the club denied the income? Hardly fair on them. League of Ireland has played five games so far and have only postponed games until April so far. If they feel they can get their season ended on time why shouldn't they?

An easier solution would be

1. Domestic leagues apply their existing rulebooks.

 

[mitre_mouldmaster 21,509]

3 minutes ago, The Dude said:

They enforce their rulebook.

I think ending the season now and keeping the standing is better for more clubs than voiding it completely and would leave far less likelihood of legal challenges and clubs going to the wall.

There's no ideal solution though. Voiding it fucks people over, keeping it fucks people over.

The very least I'd expect the league to do in the first instance would be to enforce their rules and wee where it ends up.

The problem I have is that they are enforcing the rulebook on a situation the rulebook is not designed or equipped to handle.

They have looked at the situation, decided what course of action is going to save them the most money and cause them the least hassle and then fit the rules around it.

I just dont buy that the rulebook is saying what they claim it is. Yes I agree they can void the 38 game rule if you follow the rulebook. What I cannot see is how they can cancel the playoffs, which are clearly defined in the rulebook, and could be held in the period they are discussing running the Scottish Cup.

They are picking and choosing how to apply the rules, which makes a mockery of the rules. They should not be up for picking and choosing, they should either be deemed not suitable for the current situation, or followed to the letter.

Picking and choosing rules to help some and fuck over others is not right with me.

[The Dude 20,026]

1 minute ago, weejoseph said:

I just cannot get my head round why any Rangers supporter would ever accept or in your case, champion the idea of keeping the standings!? 

To top it off you use “clubs” as a reason for justification!? Where the fuck were the other clubs 8 years ago?

What right minded Rangers supporter thinks like this because I certainly don’t know any who would just lay their and grunt like you do. 

 

I've accepted it because having spoken to an independent lawyer and a number of clubs, I don't see any way in which the standings wont be kept.

[HuistraHairDo 12,499]

18 minutes ago, The Dude said:

There are no UEFA rules. 

I'd rather listen to representatives of clubs who are on the SPFL board (who are making the decision) rather than random punters on a forum. And I have. 

Also, I'm full time. 

I'll just wait til tmora when they have the meeting with UEFA  than listen to the same representatives of clubs that voted to give the Fenians the last eight titles.