SDM and the Presidents Role

[minstral 5,375]

Minstral, people like you believe the tabloids when they say that he nearly put us out of business...who is gullible one here....

So has Walter also been telling lies along with the tabloids, he has spoken out a couple of times telling us how bad things were.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Did Walter ever say we were nearly out of business, their is only one person lying here.....

[MrSifter 181]

Minstral, people like you believe the tabloids when they say that he nearly put us out of business...who is gullible one here....

So has Walter also been telling lies along with the tabloids, he has spoken out a couple of times telling us how bad things were.

Minstral, you're trying to converse with someone that lacks the mental capability to know when to use "their" or "there".

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Thought you would be in a better mood this morning after last night ?

[minstral 5,375]

Did Walter ever say we were nearly out of business, their is only one person lying here.....

The way he was speaking yes, but its good to know everything is fine and we have plenty of money ans all this debt was only an illusion.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Who said that ? you need to watch that lying.....

[minstral 5,375]

Who said that ? you need to watch that lying.....

General you really have to make your mind up, has Murray left us in trouble or not. And by the way i dont tell lies as this is the biggest financal mess our club has ever been in, and yet you still defend Murray.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

You said the club nearly went out of business, we didn't.

Let’s deal in facts instead of the lies you have read in the tabloids and repeat verbatim on here.

Out of interest after Kaunas knocked us out of Europe, what would you have done, struggled on with the squad we had and in all likelihood handed Celtic five in a row and no champions league money for two years or strengthened the squad and won two in a row and got two years champions league money?

[MrSifter 181]

Who said that ? you need to watch that lying.....

General you really have to make your mind up, has Murray left us in trouble or not. And by the way i dont tell lies as this is the biggest financal mess our club has ever been in, and yet you still defend Murray.

The Genital doesn't know a Rangers pre Graeme Souness so we have to forgive him his ignorance.

[minstral 5,375]

You said the club nearly went out of business, we didn't.

Let’s deal in facts instead of the lies you have read in the tabloids and repeat verbatim on here.

Out of interest after Kaunas knocked us out of Europe, what would you have done, struggled on with the squad we had and in all likelihood handed Celtic five in a row and no champions league money for two years or strengthened the squad and won two in a row and got two years champions league money?

Why did we not buy players before we got knocked out of Europe by a pub team. i will tell you why, because we were in that much debt which Murray was not being truthful about and he never thought for one minute that we would get knocked out. But the defeat was down to Walter and the players getting beat by a team that our reserves should have been able to beat.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

Sifter I was at ibrox when you were probably celebrating a win at love street on the last game of the season when hearts blew the league title, was that not pre souness ?

In fact i was even there the season before that. I am not an old bastard like you though so unless you want me there in dipers i couldn't have went long before that.....

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

You said the club nearly went out of business, we didn't.

Let’s deal in facts instead of the lies you have read in the tabloids and repeat verbatim on here.

Out of interest after Kaunas knocked us out of Europe, what would you have done, struggled on with the squad we had and in all likelihood handed Celtic five in a row and no champions league money for two years or strengthened the squad and won two in a row and got two years champions league money?

Why did we not buy players before we got knocked out of Europe by a pub team. i will tell you why, because we were in that much debt which Murray was not being truthful about and he never thought for one minute that we would get knocked out. But the defeat was down to Walter and the players getting beat by a team that our reserves should have been able to beat.

Exactly, we already had the squad to beat them and we were holding off spending to see how far we got in europe but that group of players blew it. Yet you woyuld have kept them and let celtic have five in a row i presume ?

Why not answer the question properly ?

[MrSifter 181]

I was at ibrox when you were probably celebrating a win at love street on the last game of the season when hearts blew the league title, was that not pre souness ?

In fact i was even there the season before that. I am not an old bastard like you though so unless you want me there in dipers i couldn't have went long before that.....

Souness was our manager when Hearts blew it on the last day so once more you demonstrate your breathtaking ignorance of our history. Genital Cartman Lee and intelligence are like oil and water.

[caseyjones 3,009]

You said the club nearly went out of business, we didn't.

Let’s deal in facts instead of the lies you have read in the tabloids and repeat verbatim on here.

Out of interest after Kaunas knocked us out of Europe, what would you have done, struggled on with the squad we had and in all likelihood handed Celtic five in a row and no champions league money for two years or strengthened the squad and won two in a row and got two years champions league money?

Why did we not buy players before we got knocked out of Europe by a pub team. i will tell you why, because we were in that much debt which Murray was not being truthful about and he never thought for one minute that we would get knocked out. But the defeat was down to Walter and the players getting beat by a team that our reserves should have been able to beat.

Exactly, we already had the squad to beat them and we were holding off spending to see how far we got in europe but that group of players blew it. Yet you woyuld have kept them and let celtic have five in a row i presume ?

Why not answer the question properly ?

We had the squad to qualify for the CL, but not one to be able to win the SPL.

Is that what you are saying here?

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

By a couple of weeks, sorry my memory isn't what it was when recalling things that happened when i was 7....

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

You said the club nearly went out of business, we didn't.

Let’s deal in facts instead of the lies you have read in the tabloids and repeat verbatim on here.

Out of interest after Kaunas knocked us out of Europe, what would you have done, struggled on with the squad we had and in all likelihood handed Celtic five in a row and no champions league money for two years or strengthened the squad and won two in a row and got two years champions league money?

Why did we not buy players before we got knocked out of Europe by a pub team. i will tell you why, because we were in that much debt which Murray was not being truthful about and he never thought for one minute that we would get knocked out. But the defeat was down to Walter and the players getting beat by a team that our reserves should have been able to beat.

Exactly, we already had the squad to beat them and we were holding off spending to see how far we got in europe but that group of players blew it. Yet you woyuld have kept them and let celtic have five in a row i presume ?

Why not answer the question properly ?

We had the squad to qualify for the CL, but not one to be able to win the SPL.

Is that what you are saying here?

We had a squad to beat kaunus but a squad that wouldn't have beaten celtic over a season is exactly what i am saying. We beat them on the last day of the season after strengthening the squad significantly, it's hardly a big leap.

[Briton 394]

No he should not. He brought the club to it's knees and in no way warrants this great honour.

[caseyjones 3,009]

You said the club nearly went out of business, we didn't.

Let’s deal in facts instead of the lies you have read in the tabloids and repeat verbatim on here.

Out of interest after Kaunas knocked us out of Europe, what would you have done, struggled on with the squad we had and in all likelihood handed Celtic five in a row and no champions league money for two years or strengthened the squad and won two in a row and got two years champions league money?

Why did we not buy players before we got knocked out of Europe by a pub team. i will tell you why, because we were in that much debt which Murray was not being truthful about and he never thought for one minute that we would get knocked out. But the defeat was down to Walter and the players getting beat by a team that our reserves should have been able to beat.

Exactly, we already had the squad to beat them and we were holding off spending to see how far we got in europe but that group of players blew it. Yet you woyuld have kept them and let celtic have five in a row i presume ?

Why not answer the question properly ?

We had the squad to qualify for the CL, but not one to be able to win the SPL.

Is that what you are saying here?

We had a squad to beat kaunus but a squad that wouldn't have beaten celtic over a season is exactly what i am saying. We beat them on the last day of the season after strengthening the squad significantly, it's hardly a big leap.

Ok, just trying to get things clear.

So the squad wasn't good enough to win the league and it would need to be strengthened. If that was the case, why would Murray and Smith take the chance of not strengthening it before the Kaunas ties. I just can't see any logic behind that argument.

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

The squad was still far better than Kaunas and I would imagine they wanted guaranteed European money before spending, winning those games would have given them that. When lost we sold cuellar and spent money...I presume this was plan B

Hardly an outrageous strategy

[Bakbear 3,586]

Good God....

Some arguments just wont quit.....

David Murray came in to Rangers, continued the revolution that had been kicked off when Souness was brought in and provided the leadership that wound up with 9 in a row. He might not have personally paid for it but he took a hand in it that you, me and any other Rangers supporter would liked to have done, if we were lucky enough to have the means....

He had never been a football man and he was never a Rangers man....

He took the club on for reasons only he can communicate but probably won't because his detractors will only call him a liar anyway. As an independent, non football, non Rangers, business man he set about to tackle an element of our support that he felt needed tackled... his detractors will disagree.... he also maintained his business characteristics and made sure that a lot of the contracts being awarded by Rangers went to other group companies thus keeping the money "in-house" among his business empire... he has not asset stripped the club otherwise people wouldn't be looking to acquire it... by directing such contracts he was of course looking after his own interests, he was entitled to do so.

He was partially responsible for breaking down barriers by sanctioning the signing of Mo Johnston and he will have alienated an element of the support in so doing

He has been woeful at defending the club against character assassinations probably largely due to his belief that some of those attacks were somehow justified and partly due to him trying to observe some sort of dignified silence. He should have defended our rights to sing some songs and he should have challenged outright lies that were told.... However no-one can expect him to come out and defend "ftp's" and make any statements on terrorism in NI.

He is undoubtedly guilty of financial mis-management of the club but how any supporter can not sympathize with that is beyond me. He clearly believed that by speculating (with the clubs, money not his own) he could accumulate... the revolution he was party to along with Souness was fuelled by the English clubs being banned from European competition and being able to sign big English names.... then when the premiership was in its infancy he obviously believed he could continue to compete at that level and spent to try and keep up.... that the EPL left us in their dust was hugely unfortunate but given that we were one of the driving forces behind the Champion League format he perhaps clung to the hope that this would provide the vehicle to feed our hungry finances..... alas, it too, left us in its wake....

Rangers current plight is entirely down to Murray's reckless spending, but his reckless spending only appears reckless with hindsight.and who is not an expert with the benefit of hindsight. He took over in the "loadsamoney" years of excess in the late 80's.... his ego fuelled ambition continued it through the nineties and the last ten years have been consolidation....

My opinion, is that he has been disappointing as a chairmen on a number of levels and he has held the chair during some of our most successful years, as long people try to polarize his contribution into "he gave as 20 years of success" or "he has lead us to financial ruin" then this discussion will go round and round. It always seems to be the same on here, you are either a Murray Hater or a Murray lapdog, life is just not that black and white.

There have been many people who have contributed to our successes and to our failures.... the Managers who gratefully spent the big money, the managers who worked on a budget, the players who were paid the money and did little to justify it and the ones who shone, the country in which we are destined to compete and the man who was at the helm the whole time...

However what seems to have been overlooked, is that this Presidency talk was not started by the fans, nor by David Murray. Rather it was started by our potential new owner. Who has looked through the figures and has carried out in depth analysis of our finances and of our assets and of our commercial history. He seems to feel that Murray deserves to be honoured and surely that must say something about what he has found during the due diligence?

Murray has been an average chairman and owner, he is about to be an ex-owner and I personally see no benefit to anyone for him to be bestowed with any honorary title. Onward and Upwards

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

The squad was still far better than Kaunas and I would imagine they wanted guaranteed European money before spending, winning those games would have given them that. When lost we sold cuellar and spent money...I presume this was plan B

Hardly an outrageous strategy

Slur David Moonbeam is on record as saying that they (Rangers FC) budgeted for a season "without" European money/earnings being thrown into the equation......so why, after being knocked out of this tourney that he claimed not to need the funds from, did he (or Smith?) feel it necessary to flog Cuellar?

Something smells fishy in the state of Denmark.

[caseyjones 3,009]

The squad was still far better than Kaunas and I would imagine they wanted guaranteed European money before spending, winning those games would have given them that. When lost we sold cuellar and spent money...I presume this was plan B

Hardly an outrageous strategy

Cuellar was on his way no matter what had happened, hence his omission from the Kaunas ties. Nobody wants to pay top dollar for a cup-tied player.

I think Murray gambled, and Smith blew it again. His failure to win the league the previous season, no matter what obstacles were put in our way, led to us having to negotiate the qualifying rounds.

[Ace 3,556]

Good God....

Some arguments just wont quit.....

David Murray came in to Rangers, continued the revolution that had been kicked off when Souness was brought in and provided the leadership that wound up with 9 in a row. He might not have personally paid for it but he took a hand in it that you, me and any other Rangers supporter would liked to have done, if we were lucky enough to have the means....

He had never been a football man and he was never a Rangers man....

He took the club on for reasons only he can communicate but probably won't because his detractors will only call him a liar anyway. As an independent, non football, non Rangers, business man he set about to tackle an element of our support that he felt needed tackled... his detractors will disagree.... he also maintained his business characteristics and made sure that a lot of the contracts being awarded by Rangers went to other group companies thus keeping the money "in-house" among his business empire... he has not asset stripped the club otherwise people wouldn't be looking to acquire it... by directing such contracts he was of course looking after his own interests, he was entitled to do so.

He was partially responsible for breaking down barriers by sanctioning the signing of Mo Johnston and he will have alienated an element of the support in so doing

He has been woeful at defending the club against character assassinations probably largely due to his belief that some of those attacks were somehow justified and partly due to him trying to observe some sort of dignified silence. He should have defended our rights to sing some songs and he should have challenged outright lies that were told.... However no-one can expect him to come out and defend "ftp's" and make any statements on terrorism in NI.

He is undoubtedly guilty of financial mis-management of the club but how any supporter can not sympathize with that is beyond me. He clearly believed that by speculating (with the clubs, money not his own) he could accumulate... the revolution he was party to along with Souness was fuelled by the English clubs being banned from European competition and being able to sign big English names.... then when the premiership was in its infancy he obviously believed he could continue to compete at that level and spent to try and keep up.... that the EPL left us in their dust was hugely unfortunate but given that we were one of the driving forces behind the Champion League format he perhaps clung to the hope that this would provide the vehicle to feed our hungry finances..... alas, it too, left us in its wake....

Rangers current plight is entirely down to Murray's reckless spending, but his reckless spending only appears reckless with hindsight.and who is not an expert with the benefit of hindsight. He took over in the "loadsamoney" years of excess in the late 80's.... his ego fuelled ambition continued it through the nineties and the last ten years have been consolidation....

My opinion, is that he has been disappointing as a chairmen on a number of levels and he has held the chair during some of our most successful years, as long people try to polarize his contribution into "he gave as 20 years of success" or "he has lead us to financial ruin" then this discussion will go round and round. It always seems to be the same on here, you are either a Murray Hater or a Murray lapdog, life is just not that black and white.

There have been many people who have contributed to our successes and to our failures.... the Managers who gratefully spent the big money, the managers who worked on a budget, the players who were paid the money and did little to justify it and the ones who shone, the country in which we are destined to compete and the man who was at the helm the whole time...

However what seems to have been overlooked, is that this Presidency talk was not started by the fans, nor by David Murray. Rather it was started by our potential new owner. Who has looked through the figures and has carried out in depth analysis of our finances and of our assets and of our commercial history. He seems to feel that Murray deserves to be honoured and surely that must say something about what he has found during the due diligence?

Murray has been an average chairman and owner, he is about to be an ex-owner and I personally see no benefit to anyone for him to be bestowed with any honorary title. Onward and Upwards

A great overview of the issues that are continually debated.

I disagree with some points but, on the whole i agree with the vast majority of the statements made.

Now, if only others would agree that there have been good & bad tmes and accept Murray has provided us both.

Well Done Bakbear

[GeneralCartmanLee 313]

The squad was still far better than Kaunas and I would imagine they wanted guaranteed European money before spending, winning those games would have given them that. When lost we sold cuellar and spent money...I presume this was plan B

Hardly an outrageous strategy

Cuellar was on his way no matter what had happened, hence his omission from the Kaunas ties. Nobody wants to pay top dollar for a cup-tied player.

I think Murray gambled, and Smith blew it again. His failure to win the league the previous season, no matter what obstacles were put in our way, led to us having to negotiate the qualifying rounds.

Cuellar was injured for another four weeks after he joined Villa….

I wouldn't call anythign about the season before a failure but each to there own.

[CanadianBacon 2,088]

I agree with that last paragraph by Bakbear - Murray merits no such honour.

Anyway, why do I have this feeling that it would be something the Taigs would do, i.e., offering a Presidency to someone.

No, No and thrice 'No' to Taigery in any shape or form.