Reply from the Chancellor RE: Tax Tribunal

[CHAMPS4LIFE 86]

first letter is the letter my MP sent to him

second 2 are the reply pay more attention to the last part of fob off'ness

so they wont answer to leaks in HMRC then ? bawbags

[Redwhiteandblue 3,330]

Cannae read it. Too wee.

[fuckthespl 2,511]

They are saying the leaks are only speculation....

[govanblue 16,847]

That first page of the reply is just the standard response which is on the e-petition page...

It is now in the public domain that HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is seeking leave to appeal the First Tier Tribunal decision that found in favour of Rangers FC.

In relation to Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs) more generally, HMRC has increasingly seen EBTs being used as a way of avoiding Pay as You Earn (PAYE) tax and National Insurance contributions (NICs). HMRC will form a view based on the facts of the case. Where HMRC believes a company has used an EBT as a way of trying to avoid obligations to account for PAYE and NICs, HMRC will challenge the arrangement and seek to recover the unpaid PAYE and NICs.

In cases where a company does not accept HMRC’s view that the EBT scheme does not work and PAYE and NICs are due, then it for the company to appeal HMRC’s decision within the appropriate time limit, and effectively choose to progress matters to litigation.

HMRC is disappointed to have lost the First Tier Tribunal stage of the court process and, as stated, will seek permission to appeal the Tribunal decision. The decision was not unanimous and the diligence of HMRC investigators was acknowledged by the whole tribunal. HMRC is committed to tackling avoidance and it is right that HMRC challenges the type of avoidance seen in this case to prevent the loss of substantial amounts of tax and NICs.

We do not comment on speculation about breaches of confidentiality

Very disappointing.

[bouncybear 43]

Good on your MP for pursuing the issue.

Sadly the standardised response ignoring the concerns about leaks is all too predictable.

It would appear that HMRC cannot be held accountable to those of us that pay their wages. That's scandalous and with luck an MP like the OP's may see fit to follow up and ask how the public can have confidence in HMRC if leaks are not investigated.

[Blueshoff 11,996]

Good on your MP for pursuing the issue.

Sadly the standardised response ignoring the concerns about leaks is all too predictable.

It would appear that HMRC cannot be held accountable to those of us that pay their wages. That's scandalous and with luck an MP like the OP's may see fit to follow up and ask how the public can have confidence in HMRC if leaks are not investigated.

Much like all government departments to be fair. The civil servive doesn't do accountability.

[We Will Follow Rangers 13,021]

Hopefully murray will have some joy with his complaint to the crown office, the thought that HMRC themselves leaked details to sway public opinion is gaining credance when you read lines like "We do not comment on speculation about breaches of confidentiality"

seems they dont fucking investigate or prosecute either.

[We Will Follow Rangers 13,021]

Hopefully murray will have some joy with his complaint to the crown office, the thought that HMRC themselves leaked details to sway public opinion is gaining credance when you read lines like "We do not comment on speculation about breaches of confidentiality"

seems they dont fucking investigate or prosecute either.

[blackpool blue 13]

it says at the bottom of the middle letter of the o.p. that in the summer of 2011 hmrc wrote to 2700 employers that were using ebt.id like to know why the fuck we were the guinea pigs.

[Jocky Broon 207]

I managed to get Sir Menzies Campbell to take it up on my behalf and the reply he got and passed on to me is almost exactly word for word as the reply from Osborne's aid.Mine was signed though by Anthony Inglese a Solicitor acting on behalf of HMRC.Looks like there is a united front of deny and deflect or better still not answer the relevant questions by hiding behind the we dont comment on individual cases etc.Leads me to believe that even if we get 100,000 signatures on the e-petition it will similarly be swept under the carpet.

[dummiesoot 16,118]

it says at the bottom of the middle letter of the o.p. that in the summer of 2011 hmrc wrote to 2700 employers that were using ebt.id like to know why the fuck we were the guinea pigs.

cough cough dr john reid cough cough

[JCDBigBear 10,865]

Champs4Life.

Well done for trying mate. The more letters which are written the more chance something will be done. I've been doing the same and am now awaiting responses from various parties.

As a shareholder in RFC 2012 Plc I've officially complained about Duff & Phelps. I've written to BDO (the liquidators) asking numerous questions and demanding they undertake a full forensic financial analysis of the accounts in the period being run by Whyte. I've lodged a formal complaint with Mazars regarding the conduct of Pritchard Stockbrokers. Mazars are the liquidators of Pritchard Stockbrokers who never forwarded the money from the sale of the Arsenal shares to RFC. That money was not in a client account and Whyte was Pritchard's company secretary. I've lodged an official complaint with the Serious Fraud Office regarding Whyte's tenure in some detail. I've written to Danny Alexander at the Treasury about HMRC. I've lodged an official complaint against HMRC on two specific issues. I've written to the Crown Office regarding the lack of progress into the enquiry they announced would happen. I've written to the Takeover & Mergers Panel demanding an investigation into the takeover. Most of these are two pages long with details of information, accusations and allegations. I don't think there have been illegalities in the financial shenanigans involving RFC, I know there have been.

What is required is for people to be pushed to investigate the entire fiasco properly. It isn't nuclear physics, it's simply a case of following the money trails and understanding the legal implications of what you find.

The more branches you shake on a tree, the more likely the apples will fall.

[hugh_capet 341]

Good stuff for trying pal. Questions must be answered over this mess

[bluechip 359]

Champs4Life.

Well done for trying mate. The more letters which are written the more chance something will be done. I've been doing the same and am now awaiting responses from various parties.

As a shareholder in RFC 2012 Plc I've officially complained about Duff & Phelps. I've written to BDO (the liquidators) asking numerous questions and demanding they undertake a full forensic financial analysis of the accounts in the period being run by Whyte. I've lodged a formal complaint with Mazars regarding the conduct of Pritchard Stockbrokers. Mazars are the liquidators of Pritchard Stockbrokers who never forwarded the money from the sale of the Arsenal shares to RFC. That money was not in a client account and Whyte was Pritchard's company secretary. I've lodged an official complaint with the Serious Fraud Office regarding Whyte's tenure in some detail. I've written to Danny Alexander at the Treasury about HMRC. I've lodged an official complaint against HMRC on two specific issues. I've written to the Crown Office regarding the lack of progress into the enquiry they announced would happen. I've written to the Takeover & Mergers Panel demanding an investigation into the takeover. Most of these are two pages long with details of information, accusations and allegations. I don't think there have been illegalities in the financial shenanigans involving RFC, I know there have been.

What is required is for people to be pushed to investigate the entire fiasco properly. It isn't nuclear physics, it's simply a case of following the money trails and understanding the legal implications of what you find.

The more branches you shake on a tree, the more likely the apples will fall.

Well done Champ keep up the good work.

[ritchieshearercaldow 22,242]

The cunt's aren't slow when someone leaks government information to the press.

The comment about "not speculating about breaches of confidentiality"

WHIT?

There was no speculation involved....breaches of confidentiality happened and that's fact

[Blumhoilann 6,712]

Well done JCD,I bet someone has taken notice.If only we had a fair minded media to put the pressure on. Aye,like that would happen.

[BLUEDIGNITY 33,716]

Aye a valiant try and as has been said if we had a fair press they would be pushing for answers but I think there's mere chance o' findin Lord Lucan boady ! Well done keep fighting the good fight !

[Douglas Cameron 179]

Champs4Life.

Well done for trying mate. The more letters which are written the more chance something will be done. I've been doing the same and am now awaiting responses from various parties.

As a shareholder in RFC 2012 Plc I've officially complained about Duff & Phelps. I've written to BDO (the liquidators) asking numerous questions and demanding they undertake a full forensic financial analysis of the accounts in the period being run by Whyte. I've lodged a formal complaint with Mazars regarding the conduct of Pritchard Stockbrokers. Mazars are the liquidators of Pritchard Stockbrokers who never forwarded the money from the sale of the Arsenal shares to RFC. That money was not in a client account and Whyte was Pritchard's company secretary. I've lodged an official complaint with the Serious Fraud Office regarding Whyte's tenure in some detail. I've written to Danny Alexander at the Treasury about HMRC. I've lodged an official complaint against HMRC on two specific issues. I've written to the Crown Office regarding the lack of progress into the enquiry they announced would happen. I've written to the Takeover & Mergers Panel demanding an investigation into the takeover. Most of these are two pages long with details of information, accusations and allegations. I don't think there have been illegalities in the financial shenanigans involving RFC, I know there have been.

What is required is for people to be pushed to investigate the entire fiasco properly. It isn't nuclear physics, it's simply a case of following the money trails and understanding the legal implications of what you find.

The more branches you shake on a tree, the more likely the apples will fall.

Well done mate. It may take years but I think he truth will out.

Have you considered sending the correspondence to Private Eye. One of the few publications with no bias that loves this sort of stuff

[JCDBigBear 10,865]

Well done mate. It may take years but I think he truth will out.

Have you considered sending the correspondence to Private Eye. One of the few publications with no bias that loves this sort of stuff

Actually that isn't a bad idea. Ian Hislop always appears to be a decent guy. I'll contact him. I love HIGNFY.

I know that a few people probably think I'm mad but in the past I have achieved some results. It isn't about me anyway, it's only about the Rangers as far as I'm concerned.

[JCDBigBear 10,865]

Well done JCD,I bet someone has taken notice.If only we had a fair minded media to put the pressure on. Aye,like that would happen.

We have to keep trying my friend. When I think the cause is right, I'm like a dog with a bone.

We Rangers fans deserve justice. What is the charge against us? Propping up Scottish football for decades? In which case we are guilty. However, there were mitigating circumstances, we did it for the benefit of Scottish Football.

[boss 1,941]

JCDBigBear :praise:

[Reformation Bear 6,453]

It's good that pressure is heaped on HMRC and their bosses in the Treasury from all quarters and on a sustained basis. Via the petition - sign it today if you've not already signed it and spread the word so that as many people as possible sign it. Via requesting that MPs and MSPs raise questions about HMRC's decision to target Rangers and about its handling of the case and the delays and about how sensitive and confidential information found its way into unauthorised hands. Via direct communication to HMRC - write to Osborne and Cameron. Asking for disclosure of information under the Freedom of Information Act is another route.

As is always the case - without fail - the machinery of government will drag its feet, delay in responding, obfuscate matters, attempt to deflect the matter; respond with platitudes and so on. Their goal is to respond with a lot of words that say nothing of importance. To create the impression of responding appropriately to matters raised by the public but in doing so to make sure that nothing is said or inferred that would mean more work for them to do or which would have the effect of displeasing their Minister or senior Civil Servants. It's a huge game they play and they play it day in and day on all subjects that Government deals with. And they think they are good at it.

So when going into battle with them persistence is needed. Its a long game - just look how long it took to get some sort of justice for Hillsborough (and that still has a fair way to run). Engaging with them along a waterfront of approaches on a persistent basis is also needed so that they feel the heat and impacts of questions from a range of angles. Prizing out the inconsistencies in responses - analysing the gaps in responses - probling what is not said as much as what is said are all things that would need to be done systematically and persistently until the balance tips and full disclosure of all files and information about the case are revealed. They hope efforts to get to the truth will just fade away. We're football fans after all and concerned only about the next match and the match after that and so on and so they will assume that we will settle down to the normality of just being concerned about football matters than getting to the facts and truth of HMRCs role in the attack on Rangers. Well I hope they get found out - however long it takes I hope the truth and full disclosure of facts will be brought into the harsh light of analysis by Rangers and Bears.

In dealing with them, sometimes (but not always) less is best. By that I mean that questions or requests for information should be very specific. For example (and noting their trite response about not speculating on leaks). Has HMRC carried out an investigation to establish where leaks arose and who is responsible for them? If so, what was the result of the investigation? If no investigation has been initiated then why not? If an investigation is underway will HMRC commit to full and complete and prompt disclosure of the findings and if not why not and what information will be made available to the public? Have any breaches or alleged breaches of the Civil Service Code and / or the Official Secrets Act taken place anywhere inside Goverment Departments in respecft of the Rangers tax case? Have any staff in HMRC, HM Treasury or any other Department who was involved in the Rangers big tax case been charged with any disciplinary offences, or are any disicplinary cases being contemplated. Will the Minister responsible disclose all documents (redacted where necessary) that authorised the pursuit of a case against Rangers so that the public interest can be served by dislosing what considerations were made by the officials responsible for initiating the case and the rationale for targetting Rangers disclosed.

The other thing they will rely on is that of dividing and conquering. If the pressure is coming from disparate groups or individuals then they hope the pressure will remain uncoordinated and fragmented and that it will simply dissipate over time. Now if there was a focus for this, and a place where responses from Ministers, officials etc could be collected and analysed and the results used to keep momentum and pressure then that would be more likely to be successful. It's a pity Jim T was not point man on this as I reckon he'd be pretty effective at holding HMRC to account and he'd know how to frame the questions and - crucially - he presumably has the Rangers files.

[Drunk and disorderly. 14,689]

Cannae read it. Too wee.

Stand on a box then! The person/s leaking info were breaking the law. Since when are HMRC above the law?