Stadium cards

[trublusince1982 768]

At the Allianz Stadium they do not accept cash for any purchases but anyone who wants to buy something has to put money into a stadium card. You need this to even buy a cheeseburger! All money you have left on the card gets cleared if you do not claim it in cash by two hours after the match.

Its estimated they have earned around £1.99m in season 2009/10 alone just by fans not collecting the change they have left.They give 10 euros on the arena cards when you open one

My first question is the obvious would you be interested in this scheme at Ibrox and would you be happy to leave your change to go to the club?

My second question is will our club ever lead the way with innovative money raising ideas and start utilising one of the best supports in the world to its fullest or will we always be following in the footsteps of teams like bayern?

The cheapest ST at Bayern is around £115 but you cannot give your ticket to anyone when you cant go to games as tickets are checked against owner each game. And is all part of their closer relations with fans policy. When we came out of administration the feeling around the club was one of togetherness and opertunity, should the club be doing more to bring us all together under one banner, as simply Rangers supporters?

[BEE 4,880]

No.

[trublusince1982 768]

seems a good way to raise easy cash which the germans hand back to fans with cheapest tickets around plus also gave them free tickets for their game against Arsenal all because the club has a very close relationship with its fans and can call on them to raise money when it is needed. if we ever want to qualify for europe and be more than whipping boys then we have to do something to raise more cash on a more constant stream or we will never see better managers and a youth system to be proud of..

[laudrupno1 3,932]

Nope

[SoldierBlue1 499]

Is this an open meeting or by invitation only ?

[trublusince1982 768]

Is this an open meeting or by invitation only ?

open to all feel free to say no too!

[SoldierBlue1 499]

open to all feel free to say no too!

thanks. I'll be there to hear what's on offer and to look these guys in the eye. In a manly way even if it's valentines day. WATP

[THE_Ibrox_Preacher 2,812]

.

[ForeverBlue_Since91 2,895]

Yes but, our club hasn't a fucking clue and are not interested.

[elephants stoned 2,994]

Spare some change please mate? seriously its quite a good idea in principal but would it work for us in practice?

[TunnyLoyal 1,136]

I was at Schalke away with Chelsea a few months ago and it was the same there, it is a total con.

It would make me not buy anything from Ibrox if this was the case.

[trublusince1982 768]

Should have added that this scheme was the idea of Bayern fans not the clubs idea. Many more stay after the game to use up their credit instead of claiming it back which still obviously gives the club extra income.

They obviously invested in infrastructure that attracts fan participation.

In my thinking if there were more club bars and restaurants I would happily stick money on the card and use it before and after the game and no doubt more often than not I would leave a couple of quid on the card happy in the knowledge that it will make the club stronger and be barely noticed by me.

[RockwellGers 14,910]

This would effectively make Rangers a jakey

[1st_Jan_1994 4,868]

Sounds a con to me

I'm all for supporting the club but there's a line between that and ripping fans off

[showtime69 514]

had to use one of these at the Hertha Berlin game on sunday

complete pain in the arse.

went to the kiosk and ordered a coke and a hot chocolate fur the missus, shouldve been 7 euro according to the pricelist, give the woman a 10 euro note and she says have to pay by card, find one of the people topping up the cards and put the 10 euro on that

go back to the kiosk and give the card over, burd says our order comes to 11 euro and we only have 8 on the card

they charge 2 euro for the card and 2 euro for a plastic cup! went to put the other 3 on the card only to be told minimum top up is 5 euro!

so the 15 euro we put on the card got us a coke and a hot chocolate and we only had 2 euro left on the card

wasnt happy haha, noticed though if you handed in the cups you got the 2 euros back for them and was told we could get the original 2 euro back for taking the card if we went round to a certain info point within a certain time

complete pain in the hole and a rip off

although handing the 2 cups back put us up to 6 euro and we got a crepe wi nutella each which was fucking tremendous

edit: sorry for rambling on a bit haha, but i think they are more hassle than they are worth

[WilliamFyfe 1,438]

I remember my school done something like this with cards. Today nightmare so it was

[neilstonloyal 186]

For me the way forward looks a little something like the following;

• Spend not one penny more on coaches or playing staff to get promoted to the SPFL (Unless it's to relieve ourselves of Ally and his staff).
  
• Offload the dead wood ASAP in whatever manner will be cheapest in the long run i.e. pay them off at a % of their remaining contract, to leave with immediate effect.
  
• In order to bring in a new player one must leave. If this requirement is met his "replacement" should be a free and on a deal reflective of sell on value and experience.
  
• Install a "grow our own" philosophy where we do bring into the fold several youth each season and play them, for argument sake a minimum of 2 players each season and they must play 50% of available game time each, this % of playing time can be reduced if more "youngsters" are played, i.e. 4 a season with 25% game time each over the course of a season.
  
• All new deals given to playing staff and players - Have a wage cap relevant to the league we are playing in with added bonuses for good performances/results, i.e. cleen-sheet, assist, goal, winning streaks, winning away from home against them, winning the league, winning the cups, winning a European game, Qualifying for the Champions league etc, etc. The bonuses should be where our players make their money not basic pay in this league set-up. There is a team in germany who pay their players only bonuses based upon performance. My view is that the best Scottish kids should crawl to this club knowing they have a good chance at a shot of playing for us and earning a pay-move elsewhere after earning good bonuses and winning/qualifying-for competitions for us. If they don't think they can achieve the bonuses for us then they shouldn't be here. The bonuses can/should be relevent to the players/managers/coaches position. The benchmark for success/pay should be altered over time based upon previous attainment/data collected i.e. If a striker for us averages 25 goals in the SPL over 5 years then the bonus for that milestone and those beneath it should be lowered with the money saved being offered for 30 goals scored etc. Testimonial games should perhaps replace the friendlies at the start of a season and be given for loyalty i.e. every 5 years spent at the club with all profits from such a game given to the player involved.
  
• Any player that wants a new deal outwidth the pay structure of the club can go to Wigan if he pleases, contract negotiations over. No player in our league is worth Premiership/Championship money nor are they bigger than the club. They can and will be replaced eventually like every man before him. If you want to be a Rangers player you sign a fair deal in line with our wage/contract policy. If you are only here for the money you shouldn't be here at all.
  
• If a player refuses a new contract which is a fair improvement on his terms he should be transfer listed with immediate effect as it's better to sell for something and save the wages than have him for an extra year and lose him for nothing.
  
• The club should max out it's outward loans allowance every season.
  
• The club should aim to make up a % of our first team squad with inward loans whose basic wage is paid for by their club, our club should only pay bonuses if anything at all. The idea being is they should be better than our youth while working out cheaper. This shouldn't replace our youth though and should perhaps be set at 2 per season.
  
• If aiming for qualification or have-qualified in Europe we allow ourselves to sign max-3-players whom will make a difference to our teams chances of qualifying/'winning and whom have a sell on value, ideally free agents when we sign them but can be signed for a "high" fee if deemed appropriate. These players should be signed on a deal which rewards them massively for European performance but in league and domestic cups only pays for specific contribution i.e. Striker doesn't get and individual win bonus, he would get a goal bonus and a winning-run/champions bonus. He should only be used in domestic fixtures which we consider "big" games and should not be featuring against the ilk of Dundee. The idea being he should cost you as little as possible in games that should be a forgone conclusion but is rewarded well for success in those which are not. He should be sold at the first available window when the European run has ended and if he remains there going into the next European run, he counts as 1 player of the max-3-Euro-player allowance.
  
• Outside of "Euro" signings this club should only be spending money on a player if it's generally agreed he can be sold for profit, if there is disagreement among the coaches on this then he will not be signed. Players signed on transfer fee's whom leave at a loss results in a "docking" on future transfer budgets.
  
• The Club should arrange the biggest sit-down in Scottish footballing history to define the new league structure and rules designed for the long-term prosperity of our leagues and clubs & national-level-game. i.e. Every club must agree (even if it has to be an unwritten rule for legal reasons) things like, each club must have a minimum of Scots on the field at any given time, Each club must have a minimum percentage of Scots in their squad at any given time, each club has to invest a set percentage of income towards youth development, every club must run at a profit, every club must have a percentage-of-income OR max-league wage cap for staff and players. A club that fails to have a set number of supporters is docked in some way to encourage smaller teams to merge and to discourage Gretna type-clubs from emerging. The Old Firm should be able to retain their religious and cultural identities publicly as a matter of importance to the long term security of Scottish football sale-ability. ( I have a host more idea's on this front and perhaps better than I've stated ). One such idea is Summer football to increase qualification in Europe chances for domestic winners on reduced budgets, the improved weather should see months of passing football on the deck or at least no excuse of "it was windy and the ground was cut up" being trotted out.
  
• The club should have a membership scheme where there is a subscription cost every season, this cost could be split over the corse of a years, this cost should be reduced for season ticket holders and the membership should also discount Rangers tickets/merchandise. This scheme will crucially allow each support-member to vote on things with regards to the running of our club every year, manager performance, cashing, players, business etc etc. the exact details of which is anyone's guess but essentially, you're not a supporter/fan if you don't "member-up" and you get "your say" in our clubs running + benefits in return. This is both to appease fans and generate cash. not every fan can attend/afford the games but a pay monthly membership to be a part of us is attainable. Season ticket holders might be miffed but if the cost of their member ship is offset in reductions to tickets/merchandise then they should be ok with it. Overall our support has a genuine voice which cannot be drowned out be individual agenda's in supporters clubs.
  
• Club merchandise should come with a quality rating and Jerseys can be sold in several quality ratings with an attached price. It should also be for the wearer to decide is he/she wants the sponsored version. The idea being is that maybe a shirt that the sponsor comes off in the wash can be sold for X to those that can't/don't-wish a premium version as where those that want a shirt that you can wash pay Y and if you want an un-sponsored shirt you pay a price appropriate to lost sponsorship cash i.e. you pay £20 more (figure pulled out my arse but can be agreed between club and sponsor). Ideally for me craps shirts and tat-merchandise wouldn't be sold at all by us but the fact remains not everyone can afford the more expensive stuff and the club should be open to everyone not just those that can pay.
  
• Season ticket prices should be lowered to reflect what we are getting in return in terms of quality and success i.e. if the measures I've suggested are implemented combined with the fact we're not in the EPL or La Liga our prices should be significantly lower than what we expect to be charged on our return to the SPFL. Price of a season ticket should go up above inflation based on success the previous season, ticket prices going down on failure to win the previous season, European tickets should be the most expensive tickets of a season and should be our pay-day qualifier or champs league. Tickets V them should be priced individually from season tickets and near champs league prices. Low level cup games domestically should see kids pay a nominal fee (say £1) and adults pay £3 to ensure a packed house, encourage new blood, and to reward the loyal supporter who has been bleed elsewhere. An individual league match ticket in the SPFL should not cost more than a cinema ticket if our club is to retain the support and interest it currently has and has had in the past.
  
• Paid Board members should see their pay increased on club business success assuming the club is successful on the park, should the club fail on the park then any business success bonus is reduced by 50% and should the club fail as a business and on the park, the member should see a pay cut and/or dismissal.
  
• European signings should be made from nations with the highest potential for tv deals, shirt sales, increase stature in emerging markets, i.e. India and China are like the new Russia and US, the best player from each signed for the Champions league group stage followed by our club negotiating a tv deal in that country, an advertising campaign, club shops etc.
  
• All pro youth players at ibrox must learn a foreign language and they must be able to pass fluency tests in order to progress, the idea being that we might sell more players to countries outside of England if any of them could say more than "Ola" in a 2nd language. To develop this each youth player must play a season on loan before appearing in the Rangers first team squad in the country of the language they have learned.
  
• Rangers should look to have a dedicated live UK broadcast of our games online, perhaps on tv. Only Rangers will know if that deal is viable over that of BT/SKY but i fail to see how any tv company can sell our games to our support at a profit at a level we cannot exceed. I know such a thing is complex as the League would take issue and it may reduce our worldwide audience but the money we are getting from TV isn't worth it in the same way it is for Arsenal or Man Utd, we should look again at this issue.
  
• Jobs for the boys should purely be for ambassador roles, i.e. we could have the Rangers legends team do a world tour every year in the countries those players are from, they take a percentage of the profits each. Players turned pundits could be paid to mention their time at us to stealthily increase our exposure outside of our own support.
  
• We should look at the US system of owning a players image rights for several years after that player has left the club, this would be of tremendous benefit in getting the most from producing and selling our youth. If this is out of the question youth-graduates should pay a percentage of career earnings to Rangers for bringing them into the game and architecting their big money moves. All deals should have performance and sell-on clauses regarding youth and if we are doing it often (like we should) then we shouldn't ask for fee's which make sales unattractive to the snobs down south whom believe their pub players are actually better than our best kids.
  
• All profits of a club season should be banked in a high interest investment deal which when suitable/required we can dip into for stadium redevelopment, feeder club purchase, community schemes/investments etc, etc. Essentially profits are used to invest to earn more profits, safeguarding the future of our club AND to reinvest in the support/future modernisation of the club.
  
• Everything the club does should inspire the people of this country to back it with their money ultimately, while this has been touched upon in other points I stress it individually as if we the support don't buy into it, then neither will the foreigner who takes a shine to us, nor the one season glory hunter etc etc. The price of our refreshments is a joke, the ticket office doesnae know it's left arm from it's right half the time, our shirts being cheap and nasty and sold in the jumble sale warehouse does nothing to increase our stature, in fact it damages it.
  
• The Club should start other businesses, diversify in effect. I said the club should invest our profits earlier but I stress that this doesn't need to be in a bank or something which won't make money, it can be say buying a sign printing business that does all of Rangers signage (crap example) with the idea being you reinvest jobs into the community & discounted rates in that sector for rangers and it's supporters creating profits you further reinvest.
  
• Rangers sports science should be like that Brad Pitt baseball film & Ivan Drago's facilities/staff. The idea being is you get smart mathematical and programming geniuses to come up with and ever improve a program that tells you who the best players are for you, who are the worst, who are the best players everywhere else in the world, who is the best value signings etc etc. Perhaps it can be a League development all teams invest into and are rewarded (if the league buys into my suggestion earlier) but we should at least be doing this instead of sending Durrant out to Honduras to sign a defensive-mid/RB to play Right-wing of the bench. Our Sports science should indicate fatigued players, injuries, speed up recoveries (jockeys use a giant freezer to speed up heeling), the latest training methods and science should be collated and implemented on a constant basis, we should innovators where we lack finance to compete and we can sale the Mk1 versions to the world at large.
  
• Rangers should forge links with clubs that actively mean something to the supports and line our pockets, we should be playing Hamburg in friendlies, we should punt our shirts, scarfs etc to every team they face in Europe, Club icons moving to/from should see the new/former club talking about each other regularly in programmes, club websites, tv games. Club tie ups should see players change hand and play etc. fucking etc.
  
• The police and TV shouldn't be able to kill interest in our game when it costs us money, they are part privatised for policing our games as it is, an Old Firm game should not be on the telly at a time no fucker is going to watch it etc etc. Perhaps a game could be played a night to suit an American audience should a suitable deal be struck.
  
• Away European/Derby ties should be shown inside Ibrox for a fraction of a price of a ticket to the game.
  
• The club should create commercial tie-ups with brands for mutual profits, i.e. as a shit example Rangers should tie up with Irn Bru and Special edition Irn bru can be sold in Rangers Heartlands with a 10P mark-up of which we get a percentage of profits.
  
• Rangers should play in a country of support every season at least once as a reward to those supporters whom can't attend our games, i.e. Northern Ireland, Canada, US, NZ, Australia, England these can be spaced out in pre-season, league shutdowns, in periods of less fixtures. Even if we have to send a legends team or a youth team it should be done.
  
• At the immediate end of a domestic season the SPFL could arrange an All-Stars side to play and All-stars side from another nation, primarily the US. While I doubt there would be much demand for it here, it could be a home and away fixture televised at a quiet time to promote goods cross-borders bettering our economy and giving the clubs a little cash from players they are paying anyway. The shirt sponsor could be whiskey, visit Scotland could have an ad up, budweiser can get in on it you get the idea. the ticket price could be nominal to boost attendance. The whole thing revolves around 2 games shown in both countries on TV with sponsors for the tie. It can be put to the players as a chance to earn a bonus and to further show off their wears to potential clubs.
  
• The SPFL should look to build a US footballing system where college teams best get drafted. The current footballing system from grass roots up needs investment, modernisation and refinement. The US system is one which we could replicate with paper and will to begin with.
  
• Rangers should have a youth team in every continent which aims to see us become the best middle-man in the business. The idea being is the south american lad we've spotted wouldn't touch us with a ten foot barge-pole and he's unlikely to fit in here, so he gets a good education, professional training and facilities, on graduation he's sold to Spain, Portugal or whatever and we get that fee which rises upon future moves, appearences, goals OR just a percentage of career earnings/image rights. Those players who can fit here and who are willing take an extra year or two in our footballing apprenticeship to play here for a season and say somewhere like Spain in their final season with an aim to gain a player for a year and an increased fee. We not not be able to compete with Barcelona or Man City in terms of finance but our facilities around the world could make us the go to guys to buy from. Obviously this is all dependent on us knowing how to run a youth system.
  
• Rangers should continue their football skills schools around the globe using ex players from that nation to feature in the coaches, memories last a lifetime and kids remember meeting hero's. This in turn makes a soft spot in the heart for us even if we don't get a player out of it. Perhaps places can be won to play in our nearest continent Youth team.
  
• Rangers could in theory build a school which see's partial government funding, the idea here being is you give a first class education off the pitch as well as on it, a boarding school in effect that aims to install good lifestyle choices, mature minds, increase the attainment of our pro youth etc etc. The kids will have it entered into their contracts that they do not pay a penny for this, if however they make it as a player then they pay back our investment plus interest. If they don't make it as a player they pay a partial back without interest and these players should be employed by the club in area's they do excell, i.e. translating a foreign language. The whole point behind this is to have greater effect on potential when it counts, take the kids away from poor family life, bad neighbour hoods, bad lifestyles off the park etc. To give kids something which will be looked back upon as being a great experience and we'll be forever in their hearts. New supporters, better educated employee's for our country, better players, more professional and sensible people. You ask yourself is it worth it, I'd say that the more you put into people in the right ways, the bigger the return you'll see. Imagine a West of Scotland where after 40 years 10,000 people have graduated the Rangers boarding school with a better education and life-apprenticeship than everyone else. Some of the best players the world has ever seen you've not heard of fell by the way-side due to education, alcohol, drugs, poor family life, community mentality/social expectations, and poverty. Our school system could correct this while funding it's self by selling these players, taking the cost of schooling back over time from every individual, government funding, sponsorship deals with companies to provide them with well educated people/brand association.
  
• Remember the HSBC advert telling you about how world knowledge affects your success, i.e. Red is a lucky colour in Asia therefor it's wise to make things red when you sell it there. What's to stop us having a Red away strip and a Chinese international in the team promoting whiskey to his countrymen when we play St Mirren and on Chinese TV scoring the winner for us at the piggery with mobile club shops being in economic powerhouse area's of China next to huge promotional billboards, selling our lucky red shirt with the internationals name on the back? An orange third strip or a strip that recognises our loyal support from the north?
  
• Rangers/Scottish Football sits down with the Scottish press and sympathetic press from other countries. The idea being to strike a deal where press access is improved, perhaps special treatment is given in return for an end to sensationalist trouble-making, game-destroying stories. The press can get one on one interviews with internationals they can sell to news organisations of that players homeland. We don't need a press that puts our game down, that's what England's press is for and the sooner we establish the "you scratch our back, we'll scratch yours" the better.
  
• Football agents paid bonuses based on getting players to sign on the terms we want, perhaps percentages of profits from the future sale and clauses related to that player. Extortionate deals and pay days for players/agents on any given day, OVER, NO MORE.
  
• Periodically check in on former players/staff and enquire as to how they are doing, a recognised club figure will have to be maintained for this role, the sympathetic likable sort whome players and staff get to know while they are here. This persons job is to take notes and build up a relationship with every person. When a player/staff member falls on hards times they can be offered a "job for the boys" in certain ways, i.e. former international for Holland is releasing a book to raise funds, we pay him for each and every name drop within that book as long as it's positve. People based abroad even if not down on their luck can be informed that legends places are always open to them, that scouting finds earn rewards, that name drops on TV earn rewards, that speakings and acting positively for Rangers is an earner long after the career. The exact pay scale of which should be fair and nothing that will sink us. Think of it as a royalty scheme on a music track.
  
• Rangers should feature positive news stories about us from around the globe, translated on our club website and send the journalist & editor involved a token of appreciation i.e. a bottle of good single malt. In turn every 5 years the worlds press should have an all expenses paid trip to Ibrox hospitality for a conference on the future vision of Rangers. The pay off being that every 5 years each of the journalists prints his/her take on our vision and it increases our world visability. Each walk through of our vision should be tailored to suit the journalists country of origin i.e. we invite a chinese reporter whom we tell about our vision for a partnership with China and talk up their players and state our intention to forge a presence in such a powerful county blah blah, then actually doing what we say if we state an intention.
  
• Rangers could use the money saved from not paying foreign journeymen and agents whopping sums to actually fund staff and resources to make in-house media, good. We could headhunt experienced individuals to run the operation and bring in new graduates from Digital Media/Journalism to do the bulk of the work in an apprenticeship scheme with us. The end result should be our players books are somewhat published by us, our DVDS should be watchable by kids. Of course a Rangers man will be there to ensure clever things and proper things are done with regards to our name and our history/values. It doesn't even need to be a media wing, it could be merchandise manufacturing or a travel company for Northern Irish supporters etc. etc. The whole concept is build an arm which increases you stature and capabilities while creating jobs. We could pay button for a successful first team and be a giant off it if we work it right.
  

Some of these idea's need strong purposeful leadership, intricate planning, financial backing and all 3 of these over a period of decades but assuming we are running at a profit why can't we do these things? They are investments for our future security and success. If Govan can have a company that's industry is Space exploration then why can't Rangers have a youth team in Peru or a School system like the jungles? 4 lads had a dream and the future success of this country's and this clubs football is to dream again. An enlightenment period for Rangers/Scotland you could say.

In answer to the OP, I don't like the idea as it's essentially stealing peoples money by making it a hassle to pay/get change. This club should have something worth buying in every sense, this club should make you proud in every sense. Anything else will ultimately fail and be seen for what it is and put-off fans/supporters from backing/trusting the club again.

Clearly, in conclusion I've thought about this too much, but it's a shite sight more than we've had from the boardS and Neil Fucking Doncaster.

A stopped reading after reading all pro youth players must learn a foreign language

[offminorthreat 1,467]

Waste of time - we will all be using this Pay Pass / NFC stuff on our mobiles in the next few years anyway. Physical cash is dead.

[pcbear 10,924]

had to use one of these at the Hertha Berlin game on sunday

complete pain in the arse.

went to the kiosk and ordered a coke and a hot chocolate fur the missus, shouldve been 7 euro according to the pricelist, give the woman a 10 euro note and she says have to pay by card, find one of the people topping up the cards and put the 10 euro on that

go back to the kiosk and give the card over, burd says our order comes to 11 euro and we only have 8 on the card

they charge 2 euro for the card and 2 euro for a plastic cup! went to put the other 3 on the card only to be told minimum top up is 5 euro!

so the 15 euro we put on the card got us a coke and a hot chocolate and we only had 2 euro left on the card

wasnt happy haha, noticed though if you handed in the cups you got the 2 euros back for them and was told we could get the original 2 euro back for taking the card if we went round to a certain info point within a certain time

complete pain in the hole and a rip off

although handing the 2 cups back put us up to 6 euro and we got a crepe wi nutella each which was fucking tremendous

edit: sorry for rambling on a bit haha, but i think they are more hassle than they are worth

Fuck that for a drama

[1st_Jan_1994 4,868]

If you Cannae go 90 mins without a pie or juice anyway your a walloper

[wullyRFC 5,230]

If you Cannae go 90 mins without a pie or juice anyway your a walloper

You can't go 2 hours without a drink after 5/6 pints you end up with a hangover at HT

[1st_Jan_1994 4,868]

You can't go 2 hours without a drink after 5/6 pints you end up with a hangover at HT

Aye that's beer that's different

In fact it should be law for men to drink beer at football matches or spend time on the nonces wing at a jail somewhere

Edit - you mean you need juice after drinking?

[wullyRFC 5,230]

Aye that's beer that's different

In fact it should be law for men to drink beer at football matches or spend time on the nonces wing at a jail somewhere

Edit - you mean you need juice after drinking?

Well I agree we should be allowed to drink beer at the games but we need to settle for draft coke to keep us hydrated so we don't end up droofed.

Or you can always head the pubat HT

[RockwellGers 14,910]

If you Cannae go 90 mins without a pie or juice anyway your a walloper

I do enjoy a hotdog as I watch the game though. Cheap & cheerful. Well not so cheap. Or cheerful. But still

[HuistraHairDo 12,514]

would never work in Scotland, too many moany bastards, last time I went to a game with my dad (66) all he done all day was moan about the price of everything and I mean everything. If somebody nicked his change anaw he would kick right off lol.