'World Class' Rangers Players...

[Frankie 505]

frankie what do you mean by world class, if thats being able to turn it on in any league in the world then we have players who could have done that, gazza at his best , goram great keeper, laudrup, and baxter could have played with the best in the world. it depends how you define world class .

I don't mean anything by it mate - that's the point. of the thread. I'm asking people to give their own definition.

[Danny 9]

Not for me. It's a term I've never bandied about as if it means very little. So much so that I'd give the accolade to only a few who played for Rangers.

Those being?

It's wrong. Many of us are capable of brilliant play on occasion, every professional in the world certainly is. The really great players do it as a matter of course. Malcolm's passing is good but there are hundreds of pro footballers who are just as good. World class should be used to describe the very best of the best.

Surely if you take it literally, it means class on the world stage? I mean, the way I am taking the term is that you are showing ability on an international stage - you don't have to be the best of the best, just comfortable at the top levels of competition.

Well I don't consider either world class but your logic is a bit schoolboyish in any case. Gascoigne did little for Rangers in Europe but we all know he was capable of doing the business against anyone, and at any level.

And yet he did not, for us, in Europe, as you say. If a player is world class by your definition, shouldn't they be capable of showing it on said world stage every time? If they don't, are you saying we should just dismiss that as one of these things?

[Frankie 505]

Many of us are capable of brilliant play on occasion, every professional in the world certainly is. The really great players do it as a matter of course. Malcolm's passing is good but there are hundreds of pro footballers who are just as good. World class should be used to describe the very best of the best.

Correct.

Malcolm's passing is fine but it isn't world class. Danny is entitled to his opinion but if he (and Kyrgiakos) did have such traits they would be much more high profile than they have been (or currently are). Yes, it can be argued that the likes of McCoist or Laudrup are world class because they did do the business every week at SPL level but Malcolm and Soti didn't even do that.

Kyrgiakos was another reasonable defender. Decent in the air and dangerous offensively. However, his positioning and discipline was woeful and that's why he hasn't really succeeded other than the odd good spell. To compare the likes of the Greek to Butcher or Gough and the really outstanding players such as Cannavaro or even Terry is not really accurate IMO.

[Danny 9]

Correct.

I would loosely agree, in the sense that a commentator will describe an 'act' as world class very easily.

Malcolm's passing is fine but it isn't world class. Danny is entitled to his opinion but if he (and Kyrgiakos) did have such traits they would be much more high profile than they have been (or currently are). Yes, it can be argued that the likes of McCoist or Laudrup are world class because they did do the business every week at SPL level but Malcolm and Soti didn't even do that.

In his first half season, Soti did though. He was extremely good, and the following season was exceptional for us in the CL. It was domestically where he lost his appetite for the SPL and this became stark. And, while you and I disagree on it, I believe Boab did too. Ok, so he wasn't quite Pirlo, but I was impressed by his performances in midfield, mainly his passing and vision.

Kyrgiakos was another reasonable defender. Decent in the air and dangerous offensively. However, his positioning and discipline was woeful and that's why he hasn't really succeeded other than the odd good spell. To compare the likes of the Greek to Butcher or Gough and the really outstanding players such as Cannavaro or even Terry is not really accurate IMO.

This is where subjectivity really kicks in. I do not consider Terry as really outstanding at all. In fact, I don't even consider him the best defender at Chelsea, never mind one of the best in the world.

Cannavaro, yes - top 3 in the world, but Terry is miles off it imo.

[Frankie 505]

I would loosely agree, in the sense that a commentator will describe an 'act' as world class very easily.

In his first half season, Soti did though. He was extremely good, and the following season was exceptional for us in the CL. It was domestically where he lost his appetite for the SPL and this became stark. And, while you and I disagree on it, I believe Boab did too. Ok, so he wasn't quite Pirlo, but I was impressed by his performances in midfield, mainly his passing and vision.

This is where subjectivity really kicks in. I do not consider Terry as really outstanding at all. In fact, I don't even consider him the best defender at Chelsea, never mind one of the best in the world.

1. And, IMO, the commentator would be wrong also.

2. For a player to be considered world class they have to be able to play well at every level on a consistent basis. The likes of Cannavaro (and Terry subjective opinion or not) can do that. That's why they are playing for Real Madrid and Chelsea. Malcolm and Soti will never do that. That doesn't mean they still can't be considered top quality players but they haven't shown anywhere near enough to even be in the 'worth consideration' category.

3. Usually, a player's overall career can determine their status amongst the elite. Occassionally, a player such as Larsson or Laudrup may go against the general rule of thumb with their high standard in lower leagues but even then these guys contributed to Euro finals to help their case.

[Gaffbear 4,101]

Baxter,Souness,Davie Cooper(when he could be arsed(,Gazza,Butcher and Goram

[Danny 9]

1. And, IMO, the commentator would be wrong also.

Well then this begs the question; if a 'world class' player carries out a world class piece of play, why is it NOT a world class piece of play when a 'lesser' player does the same thing?

2. For a player to be considered world class they have to be able to play well at every level on a consistent basis. The likes of Cannavaro (and Terry subjective opinion or not) can do that. That's why they are playing for Real Madrid and Chelsea. Malcolm and Soti will never do that. That doesn't mean they still can't be considered top quality players but they haven't shown anywhere near enough to even be in the 'worth consideration' category.

So, what you are saying is that one good season in which the above are achieved is not enough - and the players must be able to do it every season? In which case, it casts doubt on players like Shevchenko, who has been simply unspeakably good for Milan, then suddenly atrocious at Chelsea. Same with Ballack - many argue he is one of the greatest midfielders around (I disagreed with this before he moved), and quite clearly he has been abysmal for Chelsea.

These examples show how meaningless terms like world class are becoming.

3. Usually, a player's overall career can determine their status amongst the elite. Occassionally, a player such as Larsson or Laudrup may go against the general rule of thumb with their high standard in lower leagues but even then these guys contributed to Euro finals to help their case.

Indeed, but Laudrup failed in Italy and England. Larsson didn't fail in England. And yet we attach the same term to both.

There is no consistency in anyones' argument, imo, including my own, simply because there are infinite factors to take into account.

[Briton 394]

Those being?

I've already said Baxter and Gascoigne.

Surely if you take it literally, it means class on the world stage? I mean, the way I am taking the term is that you are showing ability on an international stage - you don't have to be the best of the best, just comfortable at the top levels of competition.

You could define it that way but that amounts to literally hundreds of current players (if you equate playing in top club football), historically thousands. I don't see the point in that.

And yet he did not, for us, in Europe, as you say. If a player is world class by your definition, shouldn't they be capable of showing it on said world stage every time? If they don't, are you saying we should just dismiss that as one of these things?

No. Gascoigne has turned it on at the very top (as has Laudrup and McCoist for that matter) I think it's silly to say they are not at a certain level because they failed to do it for a particular team, in a particular competition.

[Ace 3,556]

I agree that to use the term "world Class" would mean a player who plays at the highest level, who plays with conviction, passion & most of all, who has a consistently high level of permformance i.e. Makes an impact on almost every game he plays.

For me, there was only ever one world class player at Ibrox and that was Goram. As i recall he was well under 6 foot tall but could reach almost any ball played at him & his shot stopping skills were certainly on a par with Schmichael (if not better).

Should Goram plied his trade at a more fashionable club of the day then he would now be regarded in legendary terms ... an icon for all other aspiring keepers to attain.

[minstral 5,375]

I agree that to use the term "world Class" would mean a player who plays at the highest level, who plays with conviction, passion & most of all, who has a consistently high level of permformance i.e. Makes an impact on almost every game he plays.

For me, there was only ever one world class player at Ibrox and that was Goram. As i recall he was well under 6 foot tall but could reach almost any ball played at him & his shot stopping skills were certainly on a par with Schmichael (if not better).

Should Goram plied his trade at a more fashionable club of the day then he would now be regarded in legendary terms ... an icon for all other aspiring keepers to attain.

strange thing to say im sure you must have seen baxter play, and if you dont think baxter was world class then you surprise me, as everyone i know thinks baxter was world class, just ask any england players who played at the same time as baxter.

[Stuart_RFC 41]

Laudrup was world class IMO

[*Manticore* 1,893]

As I say, CL for us - he was voted by SSN as the defender of the group stages, and was one of the major reasons we progressed to the last 16.

He was also impeccable in the Confederations Cup (not the WC I admit) in 2005 I think it was, taming arguably one of the best strikers around in Adriano. Admittedly the rest of his Greek side wasn't quite so impressive, and they lost 3-0

Whether he can still be judged, by my criteria, as WC given he's with a backwater German side now who play in the Uefa Cup is open to question. Probably not, but who knows. As I say though, it's flexible.

That all said, playing for your national side at the highest levels (Euros, WC) might not be as big a barometer though for being world class, given Giggs never has and is judged world class.

Well to describe him as world class on the strength of a handful of games devalues the language imo.

I suppose Eintracht Frankfurt are a 'backwater' these days, but having put 12 past us over two legs it makes me shudder.

[polar bear 0]

We are not all guilty of that.

The problem with this world class thing is that it has never been defined what it means. Some seem to mean a player who can hold his own in one of the top leagues and throw the term around willy nilly. We have had many of those.

You seem to be more like me and reserve the term for the very best. Certainly Baxter and Gascoigne would be world class.

Not to sure about Gascoigne,but Slim Jim absolutely,and also Laudrup for sure.

[polar bear 0]

Aye, any older bear that I speak with always rates Baxter as their favorite. It is interesting that John Greig (despite being voted Best Ever Ranger) doesn't excite these guys as much. Possibly, to do with his less glamorous style of play I suppose...

I think that's one of the hardest things of being a Rangers fan right now. Most of us can cope with not winning all the time. We have no devine right to success and we should accept that. However, we have no players right now that can really excite the support.

Yes, Burke, Buffel and Ferguson can sometimes show that something special but nowhere near enough to match the tricks and arrogance of the Laudrup's, Coopers and Baxters of this world. Even during the drak days of the early 80s the fans still had Cooper to make it worth going to games. We don't even have that.

It's looking unlikely as if that may change for next season either.

Greig and Baxter,two totally different types of players Frankie,(who really complimented each other)Greig being all business, while Slim Jim was just a genius,who could win a game all on his own.

[polar bear 0]

Let's not forget King Kai,he and Baxter were both selected for a world select back in the late 60's (against England I think) and I think Willie Henderson was

once selected also.

[lancedeangers1 287]

Firstly, before some get their knickers in a twist, I think we're all guilty of of being overly fulsome in our praise of some Rangers players (new and old). We all have our favorites but what really determines players of the highest level?

For me the term 'world class' is used far too often by fans and media pundits alike when it comes to describing any football player. Yes, there are many players (more than XI anyway) would be considered good enough to get into a world squad. Moreover, judging a player's ability is always subjective when it comes differing opinions - arguably no-one is ever truly right.

Thus, it's interesting to try and consider what Rangers players over the years could truly be considered world class. We obviously have the Hall of Fame which picks out the greatest players to have worn the jersey. For me, this is already too big in some ways but at least the fans are consulted as to who actually enters this unique group.

Guys like the founding fathers are there for their contribution to starting the club but as we go on through the years and eras more and more players are picked for their ability and contribution as opposed to what they actually did for the club off the field as a whole. No matter their service, no-one can doubt (for the most part anyway) the qualities of the players in our hall of fame. Players like Morton, Meiklejohn and McPhail through to Greig, Gough and Goram are all players of the highest quality but are they genuinely 'world class' per se?

Can they really match the Pele's, Beckenbauer's, Best's, Cruyff's, Maldini's and Schmeichal's? Because that's the level we're talking about there. What current players generally fit into this category? Are Gerrard, Beckham, Henry, Gattuso, Cavanarro, Torres et al comparable to these undeniable greats?

For me, 'world class' is a player who is truly of a different pedigree. Not just at one aspect of the game but a player who has the overall package to still have enough talent to nullify any weaknesses he may have. Can we really say McCoist, Laudrup, Gascoigne and Baxter attained that level? Or are we being too proud and emotional to criticise objectively?

Now, obviously, I find it hard to judge the older players already mentioned. I've only seen glimpses of their play so it would be unfair of me to say either way if they were good enough. Moreover, it wasn't until the mid-20th century that football truly became international and it wasn't until even later we had countries full of different nationalities playing against each other every week.

Ergo, I'll make my judgement on the bears I have seen. Depressingly, I feel we have to go further back to find our first. The recent/current team doesn't have any truly world class players. Barry Ferguson is a fine player but lacks the pace and directness to be in the highest category IMO. Ronald de Boer may have been considered one but did he really have the complete game to be considered as good as a Eusabio or di Stefano? It's more probable that his twin brother Frank could be considered a world class standard despite beig at the tail-end of his career when he joined us. Certainly these players are as good as it gets when it comes to recent years. Even the Prso's of this world were far too injury-prone and inconsistent to be labelled anything other than honest pros.

Before our downsizing we had more excellent players. Guys like Amoruso, Numan, Albertz, Gascoigne, Goram, Hatelely, McCoist, Gough and Laudrup were all staples of our club's success. But did any of them contribute enough to the wider game to be 'world class'? Brian Laudrup is one of the most talented player to wear the jersey but if he was that good why was he in Scotland plying his trade? Same goes for the other names there. Were other parts of their game (passing, work-rate and discipline) too poor to compliment their outstanding traits? As such, can they be described as 'world class'?

What I'm trying to show here is how difficult it is to truly judge a player. Indeed, one could say it's almost impossible. Some would laugh at me being overly criticial and harsh towards our legends. Others would have even the slimmest of Rangers contributors tagged as world class players.

I'd love to hear your thoughts. Who are your world class Rangers players? Do we have any and, if so, who are they and why?

A very interesting topic frank if we can be honest in our views. Its hard for me to rule out players that plyed there trade prior to the seventies due to my lack of knowledge in seeing them so my views are based from the 70's until today. Todays standard of truelly world class is measured against the likes of Henry, Kaka, Ronaldinho etc. We havent had any players of their elite calibre and reputation. I think we have had truelly elite european standard players such as- Laudrup, De boers, Goram, Hately, Numan, Caniggia, Gasgoigne, Souness, Wilkins, Woods, Steven and you would have to include a golden boot winner in M'coist. MY god what went wrong...

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

Its a hard one and we have had some outstanding players.

For me its got to be Goram - he could have walked into any team in the world and strengthened it.

[highlander05 53]

laudrup was definitly world class in his career, even pele could agree to that by puttin him on his list of the greatest living footballers in the world

[nvager 498]

Goram

Stevens

Butcher

Gough

Numan

Laudrup

Gascoigne

Souness

Steven

McCoist

Hately

Im 35 and for me that is the best Gers could have had out in my time - maybe not all world class individuals but most definately a world class team ! Fucking fantastic

Great players there and add

Many older ones from way back to before the Mortons, Gillicks and McPhails, Dawsons, Shaw, Cox, etc - the Youngs and Woodburn, etc, Baxter, Henderson, etc.

A whole lot more in the past than what you have listed. Shows our great history

[Danny 9]

Well to describe him as world class on the strength of a handful of games devalues the language imo.

Fair enough, you're entitled to that stance. I just don't think WC is as hard to attain as it used to be, and maybe doesn't mean what it once did.

I mean, does it define the best players in the world like Kaka, Ronaldo, Nesta and Ronaldinho? Or does it define the really really good ones like Ruud Van Nistelrooy, Beckham, Pirlo and Gerrard? Or is it more the next tier down like Ballack, Giggs etc.

It's incredibly tough to narrow down.

I suppose Eintracht Frankfurt are a 'backwater' these days, but having put 12 past us over two legs it makes me shudder.

I believe they finished 5th bottom in the Bundesliga last season. They're the Wigan of Germany these days.

[delparlane 5,752]

At the very least (from the time I've witnessed, and probably plenty before):

Jim Baxter

Sandy Jardine

Willie Henderson

Willie Johnstone

Colin Stein

John Greig

Graeme Souness

Davie Cooper

Andy Goram

Richard Gough

Mark Hately

Ally McCoist

Ian Durrant

Laudrup

Gazza

Artur Numan

Barry Ferguson

And I would be tempted to add Tam McLean and perhaps Wee Doddie MacDonald as well, both vastly under rated players.

[BLUE CYCLOPS 26]

I have always rated DeBoer above Larson,mainly because he did it with a great Holland team at the highest level.

He did it with a great Milan (?) Barca(?) team.he may have been past his best when he came to Gers, but he had proved his pedigree at world cup,cl, level as a key member of a number of top teams. Larson gets much more publicity,but he spent the bulk of his career in the SPL ffs, and no one was ever willing to lay out hard cash to get him.

The way Tic fans go on about Larson being the greatest living striker in world history and all he ever cost in his whole career was £600,000. Barca waited and got him as a squad player on a Bosman. ManU decided not to get him from Celtic but took him on loan 10 years later.

We never saw the best of DeBoer but imo he proved himself at a higher level for a longer period than Larson, and I considered him world class.

[Coopermania 1]

In my time I would say Goram, Butcher and Cooper - but as much as I hate to say it even Cooper maybe didn't turn it on enough to be truly world class.

I beleive that Durrant could have been if it hadn't been for a hooligan prick from Aberdeen

I would agree here Swagger about Davie Cooper, as much as I loved him as a player, brilliant on his day, was he world class ? Probably just falls short of it, I suspect because he didnt go abroad, but there again he didnt want to leave Scotland.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

I believe they finished 5th bottom in the Bundesliga last season. They're the Wigan of Germany these days.

Sad but true.

Participants in what was/ is thought by many to be the greatest football match ever.

As I said before put 12 past the Gers getting there.

And having a Stadium that hosted matches in 2 World Cup Finals.

I was there for Scotland-Yugoslavia in 1974.

[dummiesoot 16,111]

Goram,

Baxter,

Henderson - anyone that kept Jinky out of the Scotland team has to be world class.

Cooper, - Just ask Ruud Gullit

Gascoigne,

Laudrup,

Scott Nesbitt