Rangers first

[Ace 3,556]

I'm with Gogzy on this. Just wait until some members force a vote on whether or not Rangers First should vote on forcing Ally out and call an EGM to try to get this. We will end up having more EGM's than league fixtures.

What makes you think that a majority of the membership (I believe +1500 members at the moment) would choose that?

However, that's what a democracy is about ... one member one vote means that 'first past the post' will decide every vote and no 'clique' (which I think is your fear) can ever drive anything through.

A motion would always stand or fall on it's merits but knowing that those voting are RFC fans should always give you comfort.

[govanblue 16,847]

What makes you think that a majority of the membership (I believe +1500 members at the moment) would choose that?

However, that's what a democracy is about ... one member one vote means that 'first past the post' will decide every vote and no 'clique' (which I think is your fear) can ever drive anything through.

A motion would always stand or fall on it's merits but knowing that those voting are RFC fans should always give you comfort.

a 51%-49% split is most definitely not a clear majority nor is it a workable majority in practice.

a 51%-49% majority means that virtually HALF of the members oppose the decision.

And most people agree that FPTP is one of the worst forms of democracy known to man as more than half the votes are usually not counted.

I worry that maybe some people have a naive and overly-simplified notion of how this kind of voting should best be employed to ensure a happy electorate.

And I'm still unconvinced that one member one vote is in any way a fair method of voting when one member has paid thousands of pounds over the years and another has paid a fiver only last month. Where's my incentive to donate any more than the minimum at the last minute?

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

ACE. I was using this purely as an example. Too many of our support are only concerned with the minutiae. Can any proposal be declared incompetent and, if so, by whom?

[broomloan blue nose 91]

For any Rangers fans moaning that we don't have a voice, then moan no more get involved and before you know it a voice we will have.

your right mate. The more people who take this up the better. That figure could go up rapidly.here's hoping.

[rab wilson 3,250]

Bears, im putting my tin hat on, please dont shoot it straight away.

after a coue of years of board and ally bashing, of which ive had well and truly a gut full, somebody posted about RF last night, and for once I was sold, mainly because its not forced on me by pressure groups within our support.

I got myself thinking about sandy, davie cooper , jock wallace and bobby shearer, and I started thi ki g to myself? What would these true blues want, because they are me and I am them.the conclusion I came to is vastly different to probably all but a few.

if you truly love your club, its not about overthrowing the regime, but my view of RF would be to help Rangers, and for once every fucker to pull together, stop fuckin moanin and do what mr shearer and mr jardine would do. Say we reach 10000 members at £10 each a month, please bear with me.

Murray Park expenses to protect our youth and maybe pay for a decent scout..RF..paid for. Pitch needs relaying...RF...paid for.much needed maintenance around our palace...RF ..paid for. Supporters buses? Legal fees for banned supporters under stasi scottish law? Paid for.

a wee plaque above the entrance dedicated to RF is all I want, a monthly meeting with a board member to see how we can help? What a fuckin chance boys, a real fuckin chance to say we and the club are one.

I have felt so positive today, and I know my ideal will stick in the throat of most, but there are a few youth coaches on here as well, decent ones who could do a job with the young kids at MP, paid for.

lets stop fighting boys, lets do it together, the best and most ferocious support in the world, lets get it right for once....united as one.pipedream but I for one want to fuckin believe it.its our club.shoot at will.

No Surrender

Rab

[broomloan blue nose 91]

If I was buying shares monthly it wouldn't be benefiting Rangers either.

This isn't about what's best for me or my money it's about what I can do to improve my club and the fans getting a voice in the boardroom will improve it.

your right mate.buying your own makes it easier to decide to sell them,paying into this scheme means you really cant get shares back, or sell them and that will keep money for club.

[billtjw 20]

Bears, im putting my tin hat on, please dont shoot it straight away.

after a coue of years of board and ally bashing, of which ive had well and truly a gut full, somebody posted about RF last night, and for once I was sold, mainly because its not forced on me by pressure groups within our support.

I got myself thinking about sandy, davie cooper , jock wallace and bobby shearer, and I started thi ki g to myself? What would these true blues want, because they are me and I am them.the conclusion I came to is vastly different to probably all but a few.

if you truly love your club, its not about overthrowing the regime, but my view of RF would be to help Rangers, and for once every fucker to pull together, stop fuckin moanin and do what mr shearer and mr jardine would do. Say we reach 10000 members at £10 each a month, please bear with me.

Murray Park expenses to protect our youth and maybe pay for a decent scout..RF..paid for. Pitch needs relaying...RF...paid for.much needed maintenance around our palace...RF ..paid for. Supporters buses? Legal fees for banned supporters under stasi scottish law? Paid for.

a wee plaque above the entrance dedicated to RF is all I want, a monthly meeting with a board member to see how we can help? What a fuckin chance boys, a real fuckin chance to say we and the club are one.

I have felt so positive today, and I know my ideal will stick in the throat of most, but there are a few youth coaches on here as well, decent ones who could do a job with the young kids at MP, paid for.

lets stop fighting boys, lets do it together, the best and most ferocious support in the world, lets get it right for once....united as one.pipedream but I for one want to fuckin believe it.its our club.shoot at will.

No Surrender

Rab

Well said Rab, we need to be united as one as far as our support goes. Anyway i am of to join Rangers First.

[Fan Ownership 101]

a 51%-49% split is most definitely not a clear majority nor is it a workable majority in practice.

a 51%-49% majority means that virtually HALF of the members oppose the decision.

And most people agree that FPTP is one of the worst forms of democracy known to man as more than half the votes are usually not counted.

I worry that maybe some people have a naive and overly-simplified notion of how this kind of voting should best be employed to ensure a happy electorate.

And I'm still unconvinced that one member one vote is in any way a fair method of voting when one member has paid thousands of pounds over the years and another has paid a fiver only last month. Where's my incentive to donate any more than the minimum at the last minute?

Perhaps you missed my post earlier in the thread?

None of this stuff is set in stone. Members can decide that shares are voted proprtionally should they choose. It's a member's organisation, they choose how it operates.

As for your continued comments on proxies - I'll say again, long term proxies are not an option.

Your reply of it being against "UK Financial Law" didn't really negate that point. Shareholders are allowed to appoint proxies, but they're only guaranteed that right for one meeting at a time.

That means you can't gather proxies until everyone gets their AGM notice in the post, you then have to get them to post the proxy form to you and hope they've filled it out correctly.

Perhaps once we gain enough of an influence to change this long term proxy situation the outlook on this may change, but for now it doesn't give the necessary influence.

The fan group essentially has authority for 7 days in the lead up to an AGM, with no time to propose motions and no influence at all throughout the rest of the year. A toothless organisation.

I'd wager that even if fans individually owned 25%+1 of the shares, if the board petitioned shareholders for consent to sell off all our assets, despite fans having the influence to block it by themselves - we wouldn't exert the influence.

The power of the collective is stronger than the power of many individuals in this sense.

[RFC55 110,230]

After Rabs excellent post I was thinking.

10 or 20,000 bears paying a tenner a month could see us raise over 2million quid a year.

Come on tae fuck its a chance here. A chance to have the fans a big voice. A chance for Rangers boards to start having to take the fans seriously. For all it would cost. A price of one takeaway a month could see us play a part in our club.

We stood by and watched one shyster bastard rip us to pieces, for the price of a chicken curry, fried rice and chips we could help make sure that never ever happens again

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

Why should the board take the opinions of the fans seriously? For every D'Art there are 10 BB's & CC's. Buying shares does not make you a financial or business expert.

[AMcK 92]

Why should the board take the opinions of the fans seriously? For every D'Art there are 10 BB's & CC's. Buying shares does not make you a financial or business expert.

Fans won't be running the club even if RF achieves a significant shareholding. It's about protecting the interests of the fans and therefore the club and helping to avoid the calamities we've witnessed in recent years. Ownership can achieve that.

Qualified individuals will be appointed to the board of RF I'm sure and they'll have the knowledge and experience required when it comes to dealing with the business aspect of things.

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

"Appointed" to the board. What happened to democracy? Does this now mean that only "qualified" members can stand for election? If so, who decides who is "qualified"?

[Fan Ownership 101]

"Appointed" to the board. What happened to democracy? Does this now mean that only "qualified" members can stand for election? If so, who decides who is "qualified"?

Appointed by the members, yes. And being qualified is a bad thing now?

You don't have to be an elected director to contribute. There will continue to be large working groups with people all helping how they can. The working group meetings will be far more frequent than actual Board meetings, because the working groups will be performing most of the tasks - the qualified directors are there to oversee it and make sure everything is meeting regulatory standards.

You do have to have areas of expertise to be able to fulfil the roles required. No offence to anyone here, but if you work as a delivery driver are you going to be able to develop commercial strategy or be the treasurer?

Supporters Direct Scotland and Enabling Sport CIC will interview all prospective candidates with a view to making sure they fully grasp the legal responsibilities that becoming a Director of a CIC involves. ES will also act as returning officer and scrutiniser and will help with an induction programme for successful candidates.

[Fan Ownership 101]

DOUBLE POST

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

So it is NOT democratic in that not any member can be elected. Sounds like Red China to me. You can vote for anyone we say you can vote for. Directors freely elected subject to veto of the appointed ones.

[NamibianBear 1,851]

Appointed by the members, yes. And being qualified is a bad thing now?

You don't have to be an elected director to contribute. There will continue to be large working groups with people all helping how they can. The working group meetings will be far more frequent than actual Board meetings, because the working groups will be performing most of the tasks - the qualified directors are there to oversee it and make sure everything is meeting regulatory standards.

You do have to have areas of expertise to be able to fulfil the roles required. No offence to anyone here, but if you work as a delivery driver are you going to be able to develop commercial strategy or be the treasurer?

Supporters Direct Scotland and Enabling Sport CIC will interview all prospective candidates with a view to making sure they fully grasp the legal responsibilities that becoming a Director of a CIC involves. ES will also act as returning officer and scrutiniser and will help with an induction programme for successful candidates.

I am sure there are many that will say this but that is not a democratic election. Here is the best and only candidate (because we say he is) now vote for him is hardly democratic?

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

NamibianBear. Nail/head. Just like FIFA/Blatter.

[Young Conqueror 78]

I really hope that all the Bears who are raising concerns on here join RF and put forward their wonderful suggestions to make it a better organisation. For me it's simple sign up and lets here your voice. Me i'm lucky I stay so close to the Ibrox that

i'm just leaving the house with my daughter and I'm going to support my team and immerse myself hopefully in a wee sign song to lift me out of the stress i'm feeling about this separation vote.

[Fan Ownership 101]

I am sure there are many that will say this but that is not a democratic election. Here is the best and only candidate (because we say he is) now vote for him is hardly democratic?

That's not how it works though.

For example, if you have an accounting qualification, you can put yourself forward to take that position on the board. The hope is that 4 or 5 candidates put themselves forward and the winner of an election is elected to the board. That's completely democratic.

As has been said about 4,000,000 times on this thread, the members run the organisation. Directors are only there to meet the formal requirements, chances are they'll only meet 4 times/year. The Board serves no other purpose than to tick regulatory boxes, be legal signatories etc. The organisation is run by the members and the work is carried out by the working groups - which ANY member can be a part of should they wish.

There are already too many fan organisations with swollen boards full of people who, despite being well intentioned, have no ability to actually perform the task required of them. Half the time these board meetings become an excuse to get together, share rumours and be in the know. It's pointless and it's exactly why you end up with perceived cliques. You have to move away from that.

Members will vote on strategy, the organisation works to that strategy, the Board carries out regulatory function.

[pcbear 10,924]

Plenty doom and gloomers on here, may I politely suggest they leave us Rangers first subscribers to it, and take their bleating elsewhere, its my money and if it appeals to me i will spend it exactly the way I want, me and my other 1750 (and growing) fellow bears are quite happy with whats on offer thanks.

[NamibianBear 1,851]

Plenty doom and gloomers on here, may I politely suggest they leave us Rangers first subscribers to it, and take their bleating elsewhere, its my money and if it appeals to me i will spend it exactly the way I want, me and my other 1750 (and growing) fellow bears are quite happy with whats on offer thanks.

That attitude is exactly what will prevent people from joining RF.

We are trying to get clarity from a well meaning organisation and proper answers to proper questions. The fact that there are so many fans groups with baggage is exactly why these questions need to be raised and answered.

Of course, if you would rather not have any new members, continue the abuse and chase those skeptical away completely

[pcbear 10,924]

That attitude is exactly what will prevent people from joining RF.

We are trying to get clarity from a well meaning organisation and proper answers to proper questions. The fact that there are so many fans groups with baggage is exactly why these questions need to be raised and answered.

Of course, if you would rather not have any new members, continue the abuse and chase those skeptical away completely

Attitude and abuse? run that one past me, plenty like what is on offer you obviously don't but that is fine, I would doubt anything I posted would scare away potential subscribers,your posts however!

[NamibianBear 1,851]

Attitude and abuse? run that one past me, plenty like what is on offer you obviously don't but that is fine, I would doubt anything I posted would scare away potential subscribers,your posts however!

I liked the idea of RF when it first came out. I said, right at the beginning, that there would be lots of questions (due to other fans groups and their modus operandi) and that they should expect that. It was accepted that they would bend over backwards (or so they said) to make this totally democratic, completely transparent and, to quote TLT, leave the baggage at the door.

So far, none of that has happened.

Add that to the fact that anyone dares raise questions is to go away and "have a transplant" or "stop bleating" (your very words) is not conclusive to raising an all encompassing fans group like it was supposed to be. Like I said, you are more in danger of putting people off with your attitude than anyone else.

I am still for a model similar to RF. However, it needs to be more democratic (the way it is being done (IMO) is not) and far, far more open to the fans.

If, by asking questions, or question the operation, you think we should leave it alone then fair enough but please, make that the policy of RF so we are all crystal clear that only those that fit in your clique are welcome.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

So it is NOT democratic in that not any member can be elected. Sounds like Red China to me. You can vote for anyone we say you can vote for. Directors freely elected subject to veto of the appointed ones.

Any member of RF can seek election to the board. The positions stated need to be filled though. If the elected individuals do not fulfil all the roles then RF will find someone to fill the roles as the election WP feel they are important to the development of RF - at least that's my understanding GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

So it is NOT democratic in that not any member can be elected. Sounds like Red China to me. You can vote for anyone we say you can vote for. Directors freely elected subject to veto of the appointed ones.

Any member of RF can seek election to the board. The positions stated need to be filled though. If the elected individuals do not fulfil all the roles then RF will find someone to fill the roles as the election WP feel they are important to the development of RF - at least that's my understanding GM