Rangers first

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

aye davie, I buy a ticket for every home game even though I only manage to get up about 10 times a season due to working 6 and 7 rotas, got whole pile of tickets ive no been to in my shoebox, and all my mates kids are getting fucked off with all the gear they get from the rangers shop ha ha.this was my way of not being able to watch the love of my life every week , but doing my best as the next bloke to putting money in every week.but joining RF, regardless of those who criticize me or it, has seen me feel like im joining something that could bring all us bears together, maybe it wont, but fuck me mate, its worth a try, if it doesnt, we can try something else, feeling good the day.

No Surrender

Rab

Oh for more of you mate.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

ACT can still be achieved if people proxy their shares to you instead of donating them TLT yes?

It could be done - undoubtedly - but proving you have the proxy for so many different people is currently problematic. RF have pledges of Proxies from a good number of people. I was disappointed to see that RF couldn't be given the rights to purchase their excess shares allocation at the issue the other day but as It was undersubscribed hopefully RF has been given all the shares they applied for.

Maybe at the next GM, RF can ask for there to be a standard form created to make the admin of such proxying less obtrusive.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Ah, so the company are able to just change UK Financial Law as they choose then? Get a grip.

What has 7 days got to do with anything? The AGM is in December, and even by then your numbers won't yet be close enough to your goal to allow any RF voting action to matter, so it will be at least the 2015 AGM before you can consider any action. So until then you are simply stockpiling money, and don't even need proxies yet. Therefore you would have all the time in the world to work out an equitable ownership scheme whereby everyone holds (either literally or notionally) shares commensurate with their investment and can withdraw from the scheme if they don't agree with its aims, and take their shares with them.

Oh and in answer to TLT earlier - In no way do I think anyone is making money out of RF, or getting involved in it for anything other than the right reasons. I'm opposing it because I think there's a much better way...

1. Fan contacts RF wanting to help

2. RF ask fan which bank he/she uses

3. RF send fan the online sharedealing application form for the relevant bank, pre-filled with everything except fan's personal details.

4. Fan completes form and gives to bank.

5. Bank set up account and set up a DD to buy £x of RFC shares every month for the fan

6. Fan gets paperwork from sharedealing account detailing share ownership, AGM details, Proxy form etc.

7. RF advise fan on how to fill out proxy form and send to RF

8. RF keep track of all fans/shareholdings and chase them up for proxies if necessary.

9. Fan keeps track of RF to ensure they are still in line with fan's desires, and withdraws proxy if not satisfied with RF performance

Also did I hear that RF is going to be one shareholder one vote?

So if I donated £100 a month which at current prices is 6000 shares a year, I would have the same voting powers and ownership percentage as someone who pays £5 a month, which is 300 shares, even though I paid for 20 times as many shares? That can't be right either.

Even worse if I pay my £100 a month for two years, then someone comes along the day before the AGM, pays one fiver and then has the same entitlement as me? That sucks too.

And another point I've heard several times is that people are not buying these shares as an investment opportunity...

Of course not, and at the levels we're talking here (£10, £100, £1000) there are no significant sums to be either won or lost, and the trading admin charge is likely to be higher than any potential profit.

But just because we shouldn't see it as an investment, doesn't mean we should just give the money away as a donation.

Imagine if it were stadium seats that RF was buying. Would you be happy for them to own them all, or would you want the deeds for the one you paid for so that you could pass it on to your son?

RF is one member one vote. That way all Rangers Supporters are the same regardless of how much they can afford to put in. That's actually something that appeals to me rather than discourages.

Re: day before agm. There will be a minimum term that you need to be in RF that will be put to the membership to vote on at RFs GM I believe.

The thing is that if/when RF gets to the stage it is purchasing assets for the Rangers Community then I am happy for it to be held in RFs name as there is nothing they can do to sell it (due to the asset lock feature ). It will always be there for Rangers Supporters to use.

Every pound that does into RF is to be used to the benefit of Rangers and The Rangers Support. If you don't want to join then fair enough.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

If I buy a million shares and then give them to RF but don't set up the direct debit, does that mean I would not have a vote within RF?

700 IPO shares donated entitles you to a life membership.

So you would have a vote.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Ach that's normal human behaviour for all of us. We all tend to say and do regrettable things when we're passionately caught up in things, ya cunt.

It's harder work to set up than a simple "give us your money and trust us" * - but ultimately a far better solution I think.

If RF put some thought into this point of view, I'm sure they could come up with an additional option which addresses some of these concerns.

* - I'm aware of the irony since that's what I do with the Fund - but the fund has proven itself fully trustworthy over two years, so I can!

Re: the trust aspect.

RF legally can do nothing other than benefit the Rangers community. It is a legal safeguard that is a result of being a CIC. There is a specific regulator who will look into the conduct of RF and monitor that they are doing what they should.

So as an organisation they are trustworthy IMO. How the votes will be used will be down to members. The specifics of whether it will be just a majority or proportional representation will be discussed at the GM I believe too.

GM

[NamibianBear 1,851]

700 IPO shares donated entitles you to a life membership.

So you would have a vote.

GM

Thank you for the clear response. The way it was talked about sounded almost like any donation would get life membership.

What would happen to a person that does not donate but sends a DD for a while then cancels it. Would he/she lose the vote from that point onwards?

Thanks

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Thank you for the clear response. The way it was talked about sounded almost like any donation would get life membership.

What would happen to a person that does not donate but sends a DD for a while then cancels it. Would he/she lose the vote from that point onwards?

Thanks

The 700 IPO shares was voted on and passed - I believe it is a fair exchange for the majority of people like myself who just bought shares to try and help the club at a difficult time (pre Christmas). I donated 710 of my own shares to RF.

Yes - the donation (from £5 per month) entitles you to be a part of RF - if stop donating you aren't entitled to a vote.

Though its clear that the money is a donation and not an investment - you are giving the money to improve The Rangers Community. The advantage being that all money RF has can be used to acquire shares (and following ACT) invest in specifically selected projects.

If you want to have a vote in perpetuity then it has to be a life membership (they are heritable too) - which can be purchased for £500 as part of club £1872 or exchanged in return for 700 IPO shares.

GM

[ab4113 124]

Is there a committee that runs RF, and who is in it?

[govanblue 16,847]

Is there a committee that runs RF, and who is in it?

It's in here...

Rangers First - Frequently Asked Questions...

http://www.rangersfi...sked-questions/

[gogzy 31,195]

Because a block of x% entitles a shareholder to, for example, call an EGM. If it's in individual names this cannot be done.

Are you sure about this?

My understanding is the RF and all it's members would be considered a concert party, which would mean proxying your shares to RF would be just as effective as donating them, or outright giving them your money.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Are you sure about this?

My understanding is the RF and all it's members would be considered a concert party, which would mean proxying your shares to RF would be just as effective as donating them, or outright giving them your money.

RF can certainly take proxy votes - I'll ask the shareholder WP to see what they say regarding what they are planning to do for the upcoming GM for the club.

I believe the main issue RF have over the proxy voting is all the admin that is associated with collecting the proxies and holding them in a way that would allow them to be used at a GM IIRC.

GM

[gogzy 31,195]

RF can certainly take proxy votes - I'll ask the shareholder WP to see what they say regarding what they are planning to do for the upcoming GM for the club.

I believe the main issue RF have over the proxy voting is all the admin that is associated with collecting the proxies and holding them in a way that would allow them to be used at a GM IIRC.

GM

Surely something you guys are willing to do though?

Definitely something you should look into in some depth though IMO.

[RFCstuart 317]

Think I'll sign up tonight, only £5/month and I'll see about upping it to more in the future, if I can afford it. Nothing to lose!

When does the direct debit come off

[Rfc#1. 1,877]

1734 and counting atm all pulling together, subscriptions of approx 35k a month for the purchase of shares to gain a voice, a fiver gets you in bears.

Who would own these shares if I was to subscribe. Am I just buying them for someone else or do I retain ownership?

Edit. Answered earlier in thread(tu)

[Rfc#1. 1,877]

Are you sure about this?

My understanding is the RF and all it's members would be considered a concert party, which would mean proxying your shares to RF would be just as effective as donating them, or outright giving them your money.

This sounds a better option.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Surely something you guys are willing to do though?

Definitely something you should look into in some depth though IMO.

Yeah undoubtedly, and I think it is being looked at, particularly with the GM on the horizon.

What is discussed at the early meetings was that pledging to proxy your shares holds no legal value as it needs the documentation from the GM to be confirmed and there is lots of requirements (I vaguely recall that they need to be hand signed not scanned - though don't quote me on that)- but I'll ask tonight and see what is said. Currently share donations have been handled by pretty much one lad who has spent countless hours on it - and he's done a great job so far.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Think I'll sign up tonight, only £5/month and I'll see about upping it to more in the future, if I can afford it. Nothing to lose!

When does the direct debit come off

Think it is a few days after you sign up - though RF can change it for you - seen a few lads request specific dates on twitter.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

This sounds a better option.

Its only a better option if you ever want to sell the shares in the future imo - The way I see it is every month I donate £18.72 to making The Rangers Community a better place - I'm happy to do that and think there are tens of thousands who will be too - just need to get the word out, and bit by bit it is starting.

Again though I don't want to discourage any Rangers Supporter from buying shares - if its a choice of buying shares in a personal capacity vs doing nothing then I think the former is better and hopefully RF can show itself to be the democratic organisation that it is and plenty will join in.

GM

[gogzy 31,195]

Its only a better option if you ever want to sell the shares in the future imo - The way I see it is every month I donate £18.72 to making The Rangers Community a better place - I'm happy to do that and think there are tens of thousands who will be too - just need to get the word out, and bit by bit it is starting.

Again though I don't want to discourage any Rangers Supporter from buying shares - if its a choice of buying shares in a personal capacity vs doing nothing then I think the former is better and hopefully RF can show itself to be the democratic organisation that it is and plenty will join in.

GM

I am more looking at it from the position of, if you guys start going down a direction I am not happy with, I can remove my shareholding from your proxies, and vote the way I wish.

If we pay in, then the shares are yours and not mine, I can't get those shares back if you start taking a path i am not comfortable with.

I hope that makes sense?

[Rfc#1. 1,877]

Its only a better option if you ever want to sell the shares in the future imo - The way I see it is every month I donate £18.72 to making The Rangers Community a better place - I'm happy to do that and think there are tens of thousands who will be too - just need to get the word out, and bit by bit it is starting.

Again though I don't want to discourage any Rangers Supporter from buying shares - if its a choice of buying shares in a personal capacity vs doing nothing then I think the former is better and hopefully RF can show itself to be the democratic organisation that it is and plenty will join in.

GM

I agree with the sentiments of your post GM but no fan invests in Rangers to make money on their shares,its a bad plan for money making.

My problem is giving money away to a group who may or may not share my views on whats good for Rangers.

A quick read through the posts on RM shows we don't all agree whats best for our club.

Im going to try and set something up with the bank to get shares monthly,i wouldn't have a problem proxying the vote to RF unless i had differing views on how my vote would be used.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

I am more looking at it from the position of, if you guys start going down a direction I am not happy with, I can remove my shareholding from your proxies, and vote the way I wish.

If we pay in, then the shares are yours and not mine, I can't get those shares back if you start taking a path i am not comfortable with.

I hope that makes sense?

The shares aren't mine - I have one vote same as anyone else who is a member of RF - They belong to RF who's membership decide what is going on.

Can you elaborate on the direction thing? What could RF be doing that people disagree with - RF is apolitical and any major decisions are decided by one member one vote - so you would need to go against the majority to disagree with RF.

I tend to think that the majority of Rangers Supporters tend to vote the same way when given the same information as we all want the best for the club. I believe that through ACT we can get clear information to the support which should encourage the fans to get involved and remain engaged with the club. I don't worry about the membership voting against me and I would suspect if it was a particularly contentious issue then RF would consider proportional representation - that has been discussed in the past at least though that would be put to the members to decide.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

I agree with the sentiments of your post GM but no fan invests in Rangers to make money on their shares,its a bad plan for money making.

My problem is giving money away to a group who may or may not share my views on whats good for Rangers.

A quick read through the posts on RM shows we don't all agree whats best for our club.

Im going to try and set something up with the bank to get shares monthly,i wouldn't have a problem proxying the vote to RF unless i had differing views on how my vote would be used.

Thats your choice mate - if you are buying shares then at least you are doing something to try and help - I think all actions should be commended.

I will repeat that by joining RF you have the same decision making power as any other member - something that I think is important. Democracy is the only decision making process that I think is fair. Obviously I fully believe in RF's goals as I think that if we got ACT then the support would be more engaged and the club would be back moving in the right direction

GM

[gogzy 31,195]

The shares aren't mine - I have one vote same as anyone else who is a member of RF - They belong to RF who's membership decide what is going on.

Can you elaborate on the direction thing? What could RF be doing that people disagree with - RF is apolitical and any major decisions are decided by one member one vote - so you would need to go against the majority to disagree with RF.

I tend to think that the majority of Rangers Supporters tend to vote the same way when given the same information as we all want the best for the club. I believe that through ACT we can get clear information to the support which should encourage the fans to get involved and remain engaged with the club. I don't worry about the membership voting against me and I would suspect if it was a particularly contentious issue then RF would consider proportional representation - that has been discussed in the past at least though that would be put to the members to decide.

GM

by "yours" I meant Rangersfirsts, should have been more specific meant the royal "yours" lol.

By the direction comment I made, I mean if there were moves made to call EGMs get rid of board members, or even people being involved that I didnt want to be associated with. I could remove my proxy.

I am all for more fan power, but id like to be able to take any donated shares back if I start to lose faith in RF and its aims.

[pcbear 10,918]

Oh for more of you mate.

Theres not many Rabs in a dozen.

1740 subscribers

[Corky True Legend 2,682]

I'm with Gogzy on this. Just wait until some members force a vote on whether or not Rangers First should vote on forcing Ally out and call an EGM to try to get this. We will end up having more EGM's than league fixtures.