Rangers first

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

I liked the idea of RF when it first came out. I said, right at the beginning, that there would be lots of questions (due to other fans groups and their modus operandi) and that they should expect that. It was accepted that they would bend over backwards (or so they said) to make this totally democratic, completely transparent and, to quote TLT, leave the baggage at the door.

So far, none of that has happened.

Add that to the fact that anyone dares raise questions is to go away and "have a transplant" or "stop bleating" (your very words) is not conclusive to raising an all encompassing fans group like it was supposed to be. Like I said, you are more in danger of putting people off with your attitude than anyone else.

I am still for a model similar to RF. However, it needs to be more democratic (the way it is being done (IMO) is not) and far, far more open to the fans.

If, by asking questions, or question the operation, you think we should leave it alone then fair enough but please, make that the policy of RF so we are all crystal clear that only those that fit in your clique are welcome.

For what it's worth I am happy for you to ask questions - though on here you only get individuals opinions on what the answers are.

I think it's unfair to say that anyone who raises questions is shouted down and even then they are certainly not shouted down by RF. On their forum or on twitter RF are always decent at answering things that they can. Plenty ask questions day in and day out - as they should.

More democratic than one member one vote? Can you expand on that? Any RF member can put themselves up for election btw.

RF is about acquiring a collective shareholding in the club and is focused solely on that.

GM

[NamibianBear 1,851]

For what it's worth I am happy for you to ask questions - though on here you only get individuals opinions on what the answers are.

I think it's unfair to say that anyone who raises questions is shouted down and even then they are certainly not shouted down by RF. On their forum or on twitter RF are always decent at answering things that they can. Plenty ask questions day in and day out - as they should.

More democratic than one member one vote? Can you expand on that? Any RF member can put themselves up for election btw.

RF is about acquiring a collective shareholding in the club and is focused solely on that.

GM

Thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, on here, it seems that if it is a difficult question, or one questioning the policy of RF, then one is pretty much told to get lost. Read the post by pcbear. If you want to ask questions, this is a typical response:

may I politely suggest they leave us Rangers first subscribers to it, and take their bleating elsewhere

Now I am aware that RM is a forum and is highly opinionated but to me, that is openly stating that its "my clique and you are not welcome". Add that to other, quite frankly disgusting comments that have been sent to people that dare to question what goes on and it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

For me, the jury is still out on RF. I want to see fair elections and sensible people elected to the positions. I also have suggested that any person, who has sat on any other fans board, should not be eligible but seems that was not to be the case.

The question on democracy will be done to death. Free and fair elections need to happen. Unfortunately, it appears (note the word please) that the candidates are being selected and shown as the only available candidate because that's what the role is. It's not really a democratic way of selecting candidates (IMO). You and I both know that a person sat on a seat, even a temporary one, is more likely to get elected than any other candidate simply because they have their bum on the seat already. All elections are like that no matter what the group.

There are serious misgivings about all fans groups, the questions are not meant for fighting, they are meant for clarifying. I have no wish to go onto any other forum or website hence why I ask the questions here.

One question that remains unanswered (although I think I have a partial answer) to me was (and this is my understanding so far):

If I gift RF the necessary minimum amount (I think that is 500 pounds?), I get life membership and can vote always.

If I direct debit any amount, then I stop the DD, regardless of the amount of money I have put in, I lose my vote.

If my monthly DD is 5, 18.72, 20, 100, 1000, 1,000,000 I get the same amount of votes - 1

So, to my understanding, I could pay a million a month for a year, stop the DD and have no vote where as, if I paid in 500 I would have a vote for life.

I know this may seem trivial but I think it's a fairly major point that needs to be addressed before I join. Of course, if my opinion is not wanted, tell me and I'll go bleat somewhere else.

[AMcK 92]

I liked the idea of RF when it first came out. I said, right at the beginning, that there would be lots of questions (due to other fans groups and their modus operandi) and that they should expect that. It was accepted that they would bend over backwards (or so they said) to make this totally democratic, completely transparent and, to quote TLT, leave the baggage at the door.

So far, none of that has happened.

Add that to the fact that anyone dares raise questions is to go away and "have a transplant" or "stop bleating" (your very words) is not conclusive to raising an all encompassing fans group like it was supposed to be. Like I said, you are more in danger of putting people off with your attitude than anyone else.

I am still for a model similar to RF. However, it needs to be more democratic (the way it is being done (IMO) is not) and far, far more open to the fans.

If, by asking questions, or question the operation, you think we should leave it alone then fair enough but please, make that the policy of RF so we are all crystal clear that only those that fit in your clique are welcome.

Have you contacted Rangers First directly to make the points you raise? For what it is worth I agree that, as well as having specific board positions, there should be a few non-specific roles for 'ordinary' members. This would allow fans to stand for election and allow democracy to take it course. I think members have to vote on the board composition / election process anyway before it proceeds so its perhaps worth voicing any concerns directly. More people may share the same view and the necessary amendments can be made.

[govanblue 16,847]

Okay, we get that you don't like Rangers First.

That's a flawed assumption. I have questions, concerns and reservations - that's not the same thing.

I thought you were one to champion the wee guy, to encourage giving people a voice that can be heard. RF does exactly that.

I'm one to champion anything and everything that I believe in wholeheartedly. If RF make me believe in them, I'll gladly champion them too.

Being rigorously challenged on here is a great opportunity for RF to answer those questions that I'm sure others have too.

[govanblue 16,847]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=273881

The Rangers Report Podcast sat down with Richard Atkinson of Supporters Direct Scotland to discuss the prospects of Rangers First.

Give it a listen as you decide whether or not you plan on investing in the fan ownership plan.

You can listen on Podbeanor iTunes.

Plus we'd love to hear some feedback on the pod as we incorporate more guests going forward.

WATP

[govanblue 16,847]

Juat came across this old post on the RFFF thread, and thought that maybe it was relevant here too...

The police need to be called in.

They do, all us contributors share some of the blame for not making sure that the governance of the scheme was robust enough before donating but like many I was inclined to donate first and ask questions later.

I'll not be making that mistake again.

Now I'm not saying RF has anything in common with RFFF except that they are both schemes (using the neutral definition of the word scheme) but I am saying that we should always try to learn from the past.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, on here, it seems that if it is a difficult question, or one questioning the policy of RF, then one is pretty much told to get lost. Read the post by pcbear. If you want to ask questions, this is a typical response:

may I politely suggest they leave us Rangers first subscribers to it, and take their bleating elsewhere

Now I am aware that RM is a forum and is highly opinionated but to me, that is openly stating that its "my clique and you are not welcome". Add that to other, quite frankly disgusting comments that have been sent to people that dare to question what goes on and it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

For me, the jury is still out on RF. I want to see fair elections and sensible people elected to the positions. I also have suggested that any person, who has sat on any other fans board, should not be eligible but seems that was not to be the case.

The question on democracy will be done to death. Free and fair elections need to happen. Unfortunately, it appears (note the word please) that the candidates are being selected and shown as the only available candidate because that's what the role is. It's not really a democratic way of selecting candidates (IMO). You and I both know that a person sat on a seat, even a temporary one, is more likely to get elected than any other candidate simply because they have their bum on the seat already. All elections are like that no matter what the group.

There are serious misgivings about all fans groups, the questions are not meant for fighting, they are meant for clarifying. I have no wish to go onto any other forum or website hence why I ask the questions here.

One question that remains unanswered (although I think I have a partial answer) to me was (and this is my understanding so far):

If I gift RF the necessary minimum amount (I think that is 500 pounds?), I get life membership and can vote always.

If I direct debit any amount, then I stop the DD, regardless of the amount of money I have put in, I lose my vote.

If my monthly DD is 5, 18.72, 20, 100, 1000, 1,000,000 I get the same amount of votes - 1

So, to my understanding, I could pay a million a month for a year, stop the DD and have no vote where as, if I paid in 500 I would have a vote for life.

I know this may seem trivial but I think it's a fairly major point that needs to be addressed before I join. Of course, if my opinion is not wanted, tell me and I'll go bleat somewhere else.

Thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, on here, it seems that if it is a difficult question, or one questioning the policy of RF, then one is pretty much told to get lost. Read the post by pcbear. If you want to ask questions, this is a typical response:

may I politely suggest they leave us Rangers first subscribers to it, and take their bleating elsewhere

Now I am aware that RM is a forum and is highly opinionated but to me, that is openly stating that its "my clique and you are not welcome". Add that to other, quite frankly disgusting comments that have been sent to people that dare to question what goes on and it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

Firstly, myself and others have spent a fair amount of time answering questions on here and I have never told anyone to go away because they are asking questions. I would like to think that any legitimate questions have attempted to have been answered by members like myself, but at the end of the day you are asking individual members for their opinion, nothing more.

Some on here fundamentally do not believe in Fan ownership/involvement that’s fine, I entirely disagree and believe that should RF be successful in its aims that it would make a large positive contribution to the Rangers Community and help the club.

For me, the jury is still out on RF. I want to see fair elections and sensible people elected to the positions. I also have suggested that any person, who has sat on any other fans board, should not be eligible but seems that was not to be the case.

The question on democracy will be done to death. Free and fair elections need to happen. Unfortunately, it appears (note the word please) that the candidates are being selected and shown as the only available candidate because that's what the role is. It's not really a democratic way of selecting candidates (IMO). You and I both know that a person sat on a seat, even a temporary one, is more likely to get elected than any other candidate simply because they have their bum on the seat already. All elections are like that no matter what the group.

Candidates aren’t being selected – roles that are required to move RF forward as a credible organisation have been. It’s a simple fact that having the best candidates for rolls required would be best and I as an individual would vote for the most credible candidates that I believe would benefit RF. There will be no uncontested elections.

There are serious misgivings about all fans groups, the questions are not meant for fighting, they are meant for clarifying. I have no wish to go onto any other forum or website hence why I ask the questions here.

One question that remains unanswered (although I think I have a partial answer) to me was (and this is my understanding so far):

If I gift RF the necessary minimum amount (I think that is 500 pounds?), I get life membership and can vote always.

If I direct debit any amount, then I stop the DD, regardless of the amount of money I have put in, I lose my vote.

If my monthly DD is 5, 18.72, 20, 100, 1000, 1,000,000 I get the same amount of votes - 1

So, to my understanding, I could pay a million a month for a year, stop the DD and have no vote where as, if I paid in 500 I would have a vote for life.

I know this may seem trivial but I think it's a fairly major point that needs to be addressed before I join. Of course, if my opinion is not wanted, tell me and I'll go bleat somewhere else.

I don’t understand your confusion tbh – If you have £500 or greater to put into RF then put it into a life membership then donate the rest monthly. I am a life member that donates £18.72 a month.

One member one vote is a central tenet of RF – I believe that we as the Rangers Support all deserve a say no matter how much we can afford to put in.

Also I feel it is worth repeating the security of RF being a CIC - All money MUST be spent of improving The Rangers Community and the only agreed method allowed to RF at this moment in time is the acquirement of shares.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Juat came across this old post on the RFFF thread, and thought that maybe it was relevant here too...

Now I'm not saying RF has anything in common with RFFF except that they are both schemes (using the neutral definition of the word scheme) but I am saying that we should always try to learn from the past.

RFFF is not comparable with RF in anyway that I am aware of - barring that Rangers fans put money into it.

RFFF is ran by committee, and it is down to them to make decisions on what the money is spent on.

RF is a democratic, one member one vote organisation that has outside regulation and legally all money can only be spent on improving The Rangers Community.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Also RF doubled their shareholding at the last share issue.

Good news.

GM

[govanblue 16,847]

RFFF is not comparable with RF in anyway that I am aware of - barring that Rangers fans put money into it.

RFFF is ran by committee, and it is down to them to make decisions on what the money is spent on.

RF is a democratic, one member one vote organisation that has outside regulation and legally all money can only be spent on improving The Rangers Community.

GM

You're missing the point of my post. I am not comparing them. Please read the post I quoted again...

They do, all us contributors share some of the blame for not making sure that the governance of the scheme was robust enough before donating but like many I was inclined to donate first and ask questions later.

I'll not be making that mistake again.

[pcbear 10,924]

1757 now, I wonder if NamibianBear is one of the latest recruits?

[govanblue 16,847]

1757 now, I wonder if NamibianBear is one of the latest recruits?

Nope.

He and I are setting up our own scheme...

Association of Rangers Shareholders Each Holding Only Limited Equity Stock

(ARSEHOLES for short )

[Carsons Army 4,146]

Also RF doubled their shareholding at the last share issue.

Good news.

GM

as did I

[govanblue 16,847]

as did I

me too

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

You're missing the point of my post. I am not comparing them. Please read the post I quoted again...

I didn't miss the point IMO - I listed why it is a different circumstance and ways in which RF can be trusted.

Being a CIC is something that people can put some faith in.

As a man you runs a charitable enterprise

I'm sure you can empathise with regulation and the trust that it should bring

GM

[govanblue 16,847]

I didn't miss the point IMO - I listed why it is a different circumstance and ways in which RF can be trusted.

Being a CIC is something that people can put some faith in.

As a man you runs a charitable enterprise

I'm sure you can empathise with regulation and the trust that it should bring

GM

Of course. I have no doubts on the regulatory/trust side of things.

My (rhetorical) questions are more along the lines of:

1. Do RF really know what they want?

2. Is what they want really the right thing to want?

3. Is putting any form of control in the hands of fuckwits like us a good idea?

And the one that I'm currently testing out...

4. Can the representatives of RF keep a calm head, and remain professional and courteous at all times, even in the face of hostile opinions?

[govanblue 16,847]

...I listed why it is a different circumstance and ways in which RF can be trusted.

It may well be a completely different set of circumstances, and RF may well be completely trustworthy (weren't RFFF also trusted at the time though?), but I'm sure you'll agree that the quote is still a sensible one, and only a fool would ignore it, no matter what the scheme.

I would hope that a representative of any scheme would say "yes gb, that is very good advice, and you should heed it."

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

Of course. I have no doubts on the regulatory/trust side of things.

My (rhetorical) questions are more along the lines of:

1. Do RF really know what they want?

2. Is what they want really the right thing to want?

3. Is putting any form of control in the hands of fuckwits like us a good idea?

And the one that I'm currently testing out...

4. Can the representatives of RF keep a calm head, and remain professional and courteous at all times, even in the face of hostile opinions?

1. RF want ACT. They want to get that though owning a significant percentage of the club. the initial target is 5%.

2. I think ACT would result in improved relationships between the club and the support and help us all move forward.

3. I assume you mean the Rangers Support. I think it needs to be reaffirmed that supporters would not be running the club under what is proposed from RF. Professional people who are answerable to the fans would be doing that. The support would have a forum to voice their concerns and a vehicle for real engagement with the club. I believe that to be an extremely desirable thing.

4. There are no representatives of RF on this forum. RF have not appointed anyone or granted them authority to speak on their behalf. It's pretty well known that I'm on a working party but all my opinions on this forum are my own based on my own understanding of RF - if i get anything wrong I will do my best to correct myself

Personally i always try and avoid hostilities in my interactions with our own - I feel it doesn't further the debate and only entrenches divides.

GM

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

It may well be a completely different set of circumstances, and RF may well be completely trustworthy (weren't RFFF also trusted at the time though?), but I'm sure you'll agree that the quote is still a sensible one, and only a fool would ignore it, no matter what the scheme.

I would hope that a representative of any scheme would say "yes gb, that is very good advice, and you should heed it."

Again - not a representative

But I also feel I am putting a point across to show that such concerns have been considered and safeguards put in place to placate the majority of such concerns. I can understand the premise that you are putting forward but think that every case should be judged on it's own merits.

RF can only do things that benefit the Rangers community of those things are currently only authorised by it's members to buy shares. Any deviations can only be decided democratically by it's members of which there are about 1700 (600 of which joined in the last week or so) - I trust that members are genuine Rangers Supporters who only want the best for the club and will use their one vote to do what they think most appropriate to benefit our team. That's good enough for me. GM

[NamibianBear 1,851]

Sorry TLT but YOU (your login at least) have made comments to some on here that were disgusting - along the lines of "go get a transplant" and many others have made comment also just because we dare raise questions.

Like GB, I want complete clarity - look to other fans groups why this is necessary.

I want a RF type model, I want it to work. I do not want it to end up being like RST, hence the questions.

If you are not happy to offer an opinion or answer to a question then it's fine but please do not get the wrong idea just because we dare question.

[govanblue 16,847]

Sorry TLT but YOU (your login at least) have made comments to some on here that were disgusting - along the lines of "go get a transplant" and many others

To be fair, I think he regrets that, and has learned from it, and as far as I can see, he has conducted himself with more than enough dignity and grace since then.

And TLT - yes, sorry, Representative is the wrong word. Proponent is probably a better word.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

To be fair, I think he regrets that, and has learned from it, and as far as I can see, he has conducted himself with more than enough dignity and grace since then.

And TLT - yes, sorry, Representative is the wrong word. Proponent is probably a better word.

The comments were made by my dad. He doesn't hide that - I would like to be clear that those comments were in no relation to Rangers First and were purely at the individual. Personally, I wouldn't make such comments in a public forum but my dad is his own man and has his reasons for animosity towards that individual.

GM

[govanblue 16,847]

The comments were made by my dad. He doesn't hide that - I would like to be clear that those comments were in no relation to Rangers First and were purely at the individual. Personally, I wouldn't make such comments in a public forum but my dad is his own man and has his reasons for animosity towards that individual.

GM

You should maybe revisit that enquiry about having an account each? I think it makes sense.

maybe 3 in fact. One for each of you and one for purely pub matters.

(Edit: We can worry later about how many additional Sponsors' Fund memberships you would require. )

[govanblue 16,847]

The comments were made by my dad. He doesn't hide that - I would like to be clear that those comments were in no relation to Rangers First and were purely at the individual. Personally, I wouldn't make such comments in a public forum but my dad is his own man and has his reasons for animosity towards that individual.

GM

Also, Yes, that would explain the difference I've noticed.

[The Louden Tavern 1,765]

You should maybe revisit that enquiry about having an account each? I think it makes sense.

maybe 3 in fact. One for each of you and one for purely pub matters.

(Edit: We can worry later about how many additional Sponsors' Fund memberships you would require. )

Admin requested that I add initials to the end of the post to differentiate and we have been

I'm GM - Greg Marshall.

If admin requests us to do it then I shall.

p.s. Once you join up to RF we can talk re: more sponsorship lol