Phil The Bigot And Haggerty The Provo Lover

[WadeWilson 4,670]

Nice to know you're upset.

Pure raging here, mate.

[jim beam 2,188]

Pretty good articles and agree with them although could have done without photos of the two ugly cunts.

[Bluefarm 1,055]

Pure raging here, mate.

I gathered that.

[DavieMacRFC 850]

Its over, go home !!!

[AllyDawson72 213]

I think some of the citizens of Ulster who are Rangers supporters would possibly disagree with that.

Displaying the Red Hand Of Ulster salute is symbolic of an allegiance to some of the principles that those citizens believe in, however the right of freedom to use this form of expression has been undermined by the underhand and subversive propaganda spouted from certain sections of the media who have consistently implied that the Red Hand display is some form of fascist salute therefore suggesting that sections of the Rangers support are bunch of Nazi hooligans.

Unfortunately it now looks as if the purpose behind this propaganda has succeeded when some of our own support, who, with good intentions, now advocate that the liberty to use this form of freedom of expression should be discontinued because of the of the possible adverse publicity by the false association created by these people.

Why are folk from paisley , Ayrshire etc doing it then? It looks horrible and I cringe seeing bears do it.

The 2nd article is pointless although I hate that cow with a passion. We can't take any moral high ground while we still sing about paramilitary groups. We can dress it up any way we want saying its UVF that fought in WW1 but that's not how many see it. The shank hill butchers, UVF , UDA etc were equally as disgusting as any Provo terrorists. I hate that Northern Ireland and its history is still so prominent in our songbook. It's as inspiring as a bag of shite. The day we are all just singing Rangers songs the better. DW's excepted.

[Rfc#1. 1,877]

Why are folk from paisley , Ayrshire etc doing it then? It looks horrible and I cringe seeing bears do it.

The 2nd article is pointless although I hate that cow with a passion. We can't take any moral high ground while we still sing about paramilitary groups. We can dress it up any way we want saying its UVF that fought in WW1 but that's not how many see it. The shank hill butchers, UVF , UDA etc were equally as disgusting as any Provo terrorists. I hate that Northern Ireland and its history is still so prominent in our songbook. It's as inspiring as a bag of shite. The day we are all just singing Rangers songs the better. DW's excepted.

A text book example of an appeaser.

[allcinaye 336]

Of course ignorance is an excuse in this instance. It's completely understandable that that gesture would be recognised by people looking from outwith as a Nazi salute. We can't reasonably expect people from outwith the UK to know that much about our heritage (we're just not that important) whereas we can reasonably expect them to be familiar with Nazi salutes.

People will see things for what they look like. It'll affect us, so we should stop it. We can't force the world to educate themselves on the Red Hand. We can act with a bit of common sense ourselves. That gesture has baggage, like it or not. It's tainted for all of history. If another gesture can be confused with it, you'd have to be insane to want to do that gesture, or not that bothered about being associated with Naziism.

I'm fuckign bothered about Rangers being mistaken associated with Naziism, even if mistakenly so.

So you consider the truth as being irrelevant, if so, I can only assume that you would regard any trial by jury as being a waste of time due to the fact that any judgement reached would be a foregoing conclusion depending on the preconceived opinion of the jurors whether those conclusions were right or wrong.

You imply that we as a support are just not important enough, well that again is just a matter of opinion but surely you must agree that anyone who was really interested would at least have the intelligence to consider all the facts before coming to any conclusion.

[ianferguson 2,619]

All things celtic Wish to censure all things Rangers while carrying on with gloryfying terrorist's who killed so many innocents .That they put so much energy into getting the satirical famine song banned under the false banner of racism while getting an IRA supporting song to Number one in the online charts tells you plenty about all things celtic, and none of it noble or good. In life it's perfectly acceptable to hold strong views on various subjects and it's everyone's right to stand up for their rights but once your views become so strong that you cannot see sense the next step is that you become bitter and irrelevant, step forward Angela and Phil.

[Carsons Dog 9,878]

Should have learned to fish

[Inigo 32,676]

So you consider the truth as being irrelevant, if so, I can only assume that you would regard any trial by jury as being a waste of time due to the fact that any judgement reached would be a foregoing conclusion depending on the preconceived opinion of the jurors whether those conclusions were right or wrong.

You imply that we as a support are just not important enough, well that again is just a matter of opinion but surely you must agree that anyone who was really interested would at least have the intelligence to consider all the facts before coming to any conclusion.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the truth. It's about pragmatism and perception. The truth misses the point.

Think of it from a foreigner's perspective. You look. You see a salute. It looks like a Nazi salute. It IS a Nazi salute to you. You have no idea that it could be anything else. Why would you go and educate yourself about something you don't know exists? Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Justice has nothing to do with it. That IS just muddying the waters with irrelevancies. Even if people did have the onus to educate themselves in some weirdly illogical reality, they don't do so, so it damages the club. The bottom line is, it damages the club in either case because it drips the idea that we are associated with fascism, which certain people are more than happy to reinforce. You play into the hands of ill-Phil and the Hag. Logically, you stop doing it. Otherwise it's completely selfish and careless of the club.

Even people that know it's a Nazi salute would probably, and justifiably, think you're a bit of a dick and an idiot to want to do something that even approximates a salute associated with a vulgar organisation and the death of tens of millions. And to think some of our fans thought it appropriate to do that in Israel!

You know the above is the case. If you care about the club you would not do it. All you are doing is satisfying yourself. It is completely self-indulgent and selfish.

You have flags and songs. Satisfy yourself with that. Stop being stubborn at the club's expense.

[sandyinroyalblue 16,478]

Excellent a thread about those two halfwits turns into a thread with Rangers supporters slagging off other Rangers supporters,and by the way nobody will love that more than those halfwits which the thread was originally about.

[AllyDawson72 213]

A text book example of an appeaser.

Who am I appeasing? I don't like the red hand salute its ugly and to the outside world looks exactly like a nazi salute.

I honestly could not give a fuck about NI or religion I only care about my club. There is no one to appease but myself

[tannerall 25,935]

Surprised posters on here allow bitter, twisted obsessive trolling Rangers haters so much exposure and attention on here.

Ignore them, they are wasting their own time as much as ours.

[Rfc#1. 1,877]

Who am I appeasing? I don't like the red hand salute its ugly and to the outside world looks exactly like a nazi salute.

I honestly could not give a fuck about NI or religion I only care about my club. There is no one to appease but myself

Appeasing yourself is great but you want others to stop because theres folk who misinterpret songs as glorifying terrorism which you know they aren't.

Whether you give a fuck about religion or NI is no reason for others to feel the same.

I fear you'll die of old age before the songs that offend others are eradicated from our songbook.

[gmcf 34,649]

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the truth. It's about pragmatism and perception. The truth misses the point.

Think of it from a foreigner's perspective. You look. You see a salute. It looks like a Nazi salute. It IS a Nazi salute to you. You have no idea that it could be anything else. Why would you go and educate yourself about something you don't know exists? Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Justice has nothing to do with it. That IS just muddying the waters with irrelevancies. Even if people did have the onus to educate themselves in some weirdly illogical reality, they don't do so, so it damages the club. The bottom line is, it damages the club in either case because it drips the idea that we are associated with fascism, which certain people are more than happy to reinforce. You play into the hands of ill-Phil and the Hag. Logically, you stop doing it. Otherwise it's completely selfish and careless of the club.

Even people that know it's a Nazi salute would probably, and justifiably, think you're a bit of a dick and an idiot to want to do something that even approximates a salute associated with a vulgar organisation and the death of tens of millions. And to think some of our fans thought it appropriate to do that in Israel!

You know the above is the case. If you care about the club you would not do it. All you are doing is satisfying yourself. It is completely self-indulgent and selfish.

You have flags and songs. Satisfy yourself with that. Stop being stubborn at the club's expense.

I think the problem here Inigo , is everybody knows what it is - it is the Red Hand of Ulster , not a nazi salute. You know it , I know it , even every tarrier in a Scotland knows it. This was never an issue 30 years ago when it was a lot more prominent than it is today , but all of a sudden it becomes one .

Why ? Because the ' easily offended ' want to find something else to minimise our historical links , another wee bit of Rangers eroded away . I don't do the Red Hand salute , but I sure as hell hate the way it gets twisted to suit our enemies agenda , along with TBB , to water down our history.

This is not a case of being stubborn , but to stand up to those , that you and I both know , are twisting things just to score a point. Surely it would be more honest to stand up for what the truth is instead of appeasing those who would like it to mean something different.

[allcinaye 336]

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the truth. It's about pragmatism and perception. The truth misses the point.

Think of it from a foreigner's perspective. You look. You see a salute. It looks like a Nazi salute. It IS a Nazi salute to you. You have no idea that it could be anything else. Why would you go and educate yourself about something you don't know exists? Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Justice has nothing to do with it. That IS just muddying the waters with irrelevancies. Even if people did have the onus to educate themselves in some weirdly illogical reality, they don't do so, so it damages the club. The bottom line is, it damages the club in either case because it drips the idea that we are associated with fascism, which certain people are more than happy to reinforce. You play into the hands of ill-Phil and the Hag. Logically, you stop doing it. Otherwise it's completely selfish and careless of the club.

Even people that know it's a Nazi salute would probably, and justifiably, think you're a bit of a dick and an idiot to want to do something that even approximates a salute associated with a vulgar organisation and the death of tens of millions. And to think some of our fans thought it appropriate to do that in Israel!

You know the above is the case. If you care about the club you would not do it. All you are doing is satisfying yourself. It is completely self-indulgent and selfish.

You have flags and songs. Satisfy yourself with that. Stop being stubborn at the club's expense.

Ok, let us all be practical then and turn a blind eye to the truth.

Let us all be manipulated by lies and deceit and surrender as an act of appeasment to the people who would destroy our liberty.

Let us all submit to the yolk of their tyranny.

As a matter of fact is there any other sector of the Rangers support that could be considered as being detrimental to the image of the Club.

Let's have a clearout,let's get rid of them all no matter what they think.

Maybe we should all turn up wearing the same type of clothes and only sing songs that have been approved by certain authorities

Now surely this is beginning to to smack of a dictatorship is it not..

Whether the people that display the Red Hand sign would consider themselves to be a dick, I don't know, you would have to ask them that yourself but what is more important is their right to do so.

Je suis Charlie!

[Murtaugh 47]

Stop posting articles about them you morons

[Inigo 32,676]

I think the problem here Inigo , is everybody knows what it is - it is the Red Hand of Ulster , not a nazi salute. You know it , I know it , even every tarrier in a Scotland knows it. This was never an issue 30 years ago when it was a lot more prominent than it is today , but all of a sudden it becomes one .

Why ? Because the ' easily offended ' want to find something else to minimise our historical links , another wee bit of Rangers eroded away . I don't do the Red Hand salute , but I sure as hell hate the way it gets twisted to suit our enemies agenda , along with TBB , to water down our history.

This is not a case of being stubborn , but to stand up to those , that you and I both know , are twisting things just to score a point. Surely it would be more honest to stand up for what the truth is instead of appeasing those who would like it to mean something different.

There's two issues. Firstly, some people who know what it is want to make it out to be something it is not. Secondly, people that do not know what it is will jump to an understandable and unpalatable conclusion, without the help of any agenda driven bigot here.

I think in most instances what you say is the correct response. In this instance it isn't. Because, regardless of the likes of ill-phil, the gesture is tainted by history.

We must choose our battles. We must be more savvy than we currently are. Using a salute that closely approximates a Nazi salute is anything but savvy.

That's quite apart from the fact that we don't need a salute. We have flags and songs that will not be automatically seen as something repulsive by others. If people automatically see things as repulsive, you're fighting a losing battle from the start. We will not be able to educate the world as to what the Red Hand salute means. People WILL always see it as a Nazi salute. We will have our reputation tainted. Even if we did manage to educate the world, I do not think a straight handed salute is in any way appropriate nowadays.

From a purely pragmatic point of view it's simple. We all know what it will be perceived as. Nothing to do with the easily offended. Except that they'll take the opportunity to play it further.

It's a simple choice. The reputation of the club, or an unwinnable, point-of-principle crusade that sacrifices that reputation...

Ok, let us all be practical then and turn a blind eye to the truth.

Let us all be manipulated by lies and deceit and surrender as an act of appeasment to the people who would destroy our liberty.

Let us all submit to the yolk of their tyranny.

As a matter of fact is there any other sector of the Rangers support that could be considered as being detrimental to the image of the Club.

Let's have a clearout,let's get rid of them all no matter what they think.

Maybe we should all turn up wearing the same type of clothes and only sing songs that have been approved by certain authorities

Now surely this is beginning to to smack of a dictatorship is it not..

Whether the people that display the Red Hand sign would consider themselves to be a dick, I don't know, you would have to ask them that yourself but what is more important is their right to do so.

Je suis Charlie!

Your view on the Red Hand salute is way too focussed on their view on it. Their view on it is irrelevant.

It's far more simple. Is it right or wrong to do a salute that approximates a Nazi one. It's wrong. It has baggage. People elsewhere will see it as Nazi for reasons explained.

We're not stopping it because we're oppressed. We're stopping it because we know it's the right thing to do for our own good. It's not them winning, it's us protecting our own reputation. If the mhanks said absolutely nothing about it, many abroad would still be repulsed by the sight of the gesture. It's got fuck all to do with Rangers haters.

Je suis charlie? Misses the point as well. I'm not challenging the right to do it, I'm asking whether it's right for us. We mustn't let the mhanks dominate our approach to this. In a roundabout way, falling into a trap of doing something unpalatable, because we think we're standing up to easily offended bigots. We are letting them play us like a fiddle if we keep ding it, not if we stop. They'd love nothing more than us continuing to do a Nazi-like salute!

[Siam69 27,326]

It's got absolutely nothing to do with the truth. It's about pragmatism and perception. The truth misses the point.

Think of it from a foreigner's perspective. You look. You see a salute. It looks like a Nazi salute. It IS a Nazi salute to you. You have no idea that it could be anything else. Why would you go and educate yourself about something you don't know exists? Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing. Justice has nothing to do with it. That IS just muddying the waters with irrelevancies. Even if people did have the onus to educate themselves in some weirdly illogical reality, they don't do so, so it damages the club. The bottom line is, it damages the club in either case because it drips the idea that we are associated with fascism, which certain people are more than happy to reinforce. You play into the hands of ill-Phil and the Hag. Logically, you stop doing it. Otherwise it's completely selfish and careless of the club.

Even people that know it's a Nazi salute would probably, and justifiably, think you're a bit of a dick and an idiot to want to do something that even approximates a salute associated with a vulgar organisation and the death of tens of millions. And to think some of our fans thought it appropriate to do that in Israel!

You know the above is the case. If you care about the club you would not do it. All you are doing is satisfying yourself. It is completely self-indulgent and selfish.

You have flags and songs. Satisfy yourself with that. Stop being stubborn at the club's expense.

Spot on.

It damages the Club, but if people are selfish enough to keep doing it, then that's up to them, but they can't say the are ignorant of the fact that it damages the Club, because it does, they know it does, but choose to put themselves first and continue to do it. Dress it up anyway you like, but that's the reality.

Though, 2 great articles exposing the hypocrisy.

[ForeverBlue1872 463]

These 'things, are nobodies. People should just ignore 'them. They're irrelevant people, but when people 'bite' it gives them the exposure they crave.

[gmcf 34,649]

There's two issues. Firstly, some people who know what it is want to make it out to be something it is not. Secondly, people that do not know what it is will jump to an understandable and unpalatable conclusion, without the help of any agenda driven bigot here.

I think in most instances what you say is the correct response. In this instance it isn't. Because, regardless of the likes of ill-phil, the gesture is tainted by history.

We must choose our battles. We must be more savvy than we currently are. Using a salute that closely approximates a Nazi salute is anything but savvy.

That's quite apart from the fact that we don't need a salute. We have flags and songs that will not be automatically seen as something repulsive by others. If people automatically see things as repulsive, you're fighting a losing battle from the start. We will not be able to educate the world as to what the Red Hand salute means. People WILL always see it as a Nazi salute. We will have our reputation tainted. Even if we did manage to educate the world, I do not think a straight handed salute is in any way appropriate nowadays.

From a purely pragmatic point of view it's simple. We all know what it will be perceived as. Nothing to do with the easily offended. Except that they'll take the opportunity to play it further.

It's a simple choice. The reputation of the club, or an unwinnable, point-of-principle crusade that sacrifices that reputation...

Inigo ( sorry quote button didn't work ! )

We're obviously not going to agree .

Had it been a nazi salute , I would have .

It's not .

We have to stand up for ourselves and should we end up in front of UEFA then we tell the truth - it's a solidarity with our support in Ulster , that started way back when shipyard workers came over here at the turn of last century and carried on to building warships to fight the very nazis we're supposed to be saluting ! That's nothing to be ashamed of - but what is shameful , is erasing that link in our history with our support from Ulster just to appease those that we all know are twisting the truth for their own purposes .

Where does this all end ? Are we never to bring back the red and black socks , because the very same people are saying it represents us ' being up to our knees in fenian blood ' ? Another piece of our history gone ?

Just tell the truth , we have nothing to be ashamed in this .

[Inigo 32,676]

There's two issues. Firstly, some people who know what it is want to make it out to be something it is not. Secondly, people that do not know what it is will jump to an understandable and unpalatable conclusion, without the help of any agenda driven bigot here.

I think in most instances what you say is the correct response. In this instance it isn't. Because, regardless of the likes of ill-phil, the gesture is tainted by history.

We must choose our battles. We must be more savvy than we currently are. Using a salute that closely approximates a Nazi salute is anything but savvy.

That's quite apart from the fact that we don't need a salute. We have flags and songs that will not be automatically seen as something repulsive by others. If people automatically see things as repulsive, you're fighting a losing battle from the start. We will not be able to educate the world as to what the Red Hand salute means. People WILL always see it as a Nazi salute. We will have our reputation tainted. Even if we did manage to educate the world, I do not think a straight handed salute is in any way appropriate nowadays.

From a purely pragmatic point of view it's simple. We all know what it will be perceived as. Nothing to do with the easily offended. Except that they'll take the opportunity to play it further.

It's a simple choice. The reputation of the club, or an unwinnable, point-of-principle crusade that sacrifices that reputation...

Inigo ( sorry quote button didn't work ! )

We're obviously not going to agree .

Had it been a nazi salute , I would have .

It's not .

We have to stand up for ourselves and should we end up in front of UEFA then we tell the truth - it's a solidarity with our support in Ulster , that started way back when shipyard workers came over here at the turn of last century and carried on to building warships to fight the very nazis we're supposed to be saluting ! That's nothing to be ashamed of - but what is shameful , is erasing that link in our history with our support from Ulster just to appease those that we all know are twisting the truth for their own purposes .

Where does this all end ? Are we never to bring back the red and black socks , because the very same people are saying it represents us ' being up to our knees in fenian blood ' ? Another piece of our history gone ?

Just tell the truth , we have nothing to be ashamed in this .

I have no problem with solidarity with them or that association. Quite the opposite. I have no problem with flags or songs. That specific gesture is the problem. Removing one gesture has no effect on the association with Ulster when there's so many other things that can be used instead. And I'll say it again. It's not appeasement. It's got nothing to do with them. If they had not said a word about it I'd think the same.

The red and black socks are different, because when we're in the Champions League (I can dream) and Mr Japanese chap or Mr Brazilian chap sees red and black socks. They don't see anything else. When the same Mr Japanese chap and Mr Brazilian chap see the salute, they see a Nazi salute. Good luck in managing to get over to them the real meaning of the gesture.

In the future our brand image might matter. The choice is yours, my man. The choice is everybody's...

Self-defeating crusade, or pragmatic realism.

[UnionMen 411]

Imagine your life being completely consumed by hatred? Phil Mac3 names has lost everything, his wife, his name, his country, to his hatred for Rangers. Kinda sad story really.

[mrmojorisin 13,670]

I never have and never will do any "red hand salute". For a quintessentially British club who invite our armed forces to games its downright embarassing.

It dosnt matter what you call it ...it will always be perceived as a nazi salute

[allcinaye 336]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477639/SHAMEFUL-Fury-UK-soldiers-investigated-performing-Nazi-style-salute-Helmand.html

So this article contains an MOD spokesman, 2 DUP MPs and ex British Army commander saying that it is disrespectful to those who fought fascism.

I'd be interested to see if there's any evidence of this 'Red Hand salute' outside the football stadium.

Point taken, although I feel that the Daily Mail article is another example of where the media have manipulated the facts to have yet another dig at our Club.