When actions speak louder than words

[Ozblue 4,331]

2 hours ago, eejay the dj said:

Excellant post Oz .I was not aware of all that shit 

Thanks for the compliment,eejay, but the sad part is that it is all true. He snitched on our fans at Berwick in February 2013...

"RANGERS’ Head of Security David Martin has urged supporters to be ambassadors for the Club at all games this season and beyond.

A small but vocal section of supporters engaged in inappropriate singing during Saturday’s game at Berwick Rangers, which resulted in two arrests and caused embarrassment for Rangers. David Martin commented: “The Rangers supporters have been magnificent at Ibrox and on our travels this season and it was extremely disappointing that a small number of fans chose to engage in inappropriate singing at Berwick on Saturday.

He snitched on our fans in February 2012 at the game against Killie at Ibrox when it was reported on the Official Club site;

David Martin, Head of Safety and Security at Rangers Football Club said: “We are disappointed the Club is now the subject of an investigation by the SPL regarding the behaviour of some fans at the match against Kilmarnock on Saturday.

“Our fans have made tremendous progress in eradicating offensive singing over the last few seasons and this has been widely acknowledged by members of the Joint Action Group set up by the Scottish Government last year, politicians and the police, to name a few.

In that particular match at Ibrox a female friend of mine got warned as to her conduct, which was fucking ridiculous considering she wouldn't say boo to a Goose; doesn't swear or cause trouble.

There will be no peace at Ibrox when cunts like him are on the payroll.

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

24 minutes ago, D'Artagnan said:

Well heres the problem CLB - if its not random then is it the general default position for every bear arrested in connection with events that day ?

I really don't know!  Do you?  Does anyone?  It could be that certain individuals have been arrested, other evidence has been presented that's made Rangers go "ah, right then", but nobody really knows do they (other than the board).

I've asked similar questions since the first post from KAI the other day.  There's too little evidence around to form a definitive appraisal of what's actually happened/happening here.  I've seen many so called reasons for the actions, including (and variations thereof) that "the board are scummy bastards", "deliberately ripping the fans off", "turning their back on fans just protecting their own", "using it to bargain for positions on SPFL boards"...amongst many others.  

I've dipped in and out of this thread so I may have missed stuff, but from what I've read nobody knows how many fans we're talking about or the particular circumstances that have resulted in the letters to affected individuals.  I've offered up opinion contrary to the populist anti-board stuff because of that (i.e. people really don't know) but as usual if you're not in agreement there's usual finger jabbing.  The only mitigation I've seen for one of the individuals saying "it wasn't me".  Fair enough, but it would be difficult to bring charges without evidence of some sort.

To summarise, there's a lot of speculation and finger pointing without any of us being in possession of the full facts, and Rangers haven't helped themselves by being reactionary in the first place and too blunt in the letters.  But I'll hold my more moderate views until I know more of the facts.

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

10 minutes ago, Ozblue said:

Thanks for the compliment,eejay, but the sad part is that it is all true. He snitched on our fans at Berwick in February 2013...

"RANGERS’ Head of Security David Martin has urged supporters to be ambassadors for the Club at all games this season and beyond.

A small but vocal section of supporters engaged in inappropriate singing during Saturday’s game at Berwick Rangers, which resulted in two arrests and caused embarrassment for Rangers. David Martin commented: “The Rangers supporters have been magnificent at Ibrox and on our travels this season and it was extremely disappointing that a small number of fans chose to engage in inappropriate singing at Berwick on Saturday.

He snitched on our fans in February 2012 at the game against Killie at Ibrox when it was reported on the Official Club site;

David Martin, Head of Safety and Security at Rangers Football Club said: “We are disappointed the Club is now the subject of an investigation by the SPL regarding the behaviour of some fans at the match against Kilmarnock on Saturday.

“Our fans have made tremendous progress in eradicating offensive singing over the last few seasons and this has been widely acknowledged by members of the Joint Action Group set up by the Scottish Government last year, politicians and the police, to name a few.

In that particular match at Ibrox a female friend of mine got warned as to her conduct, which was fucking ridiculous considering she wouldn't say boo to a Goose; doesn't swear or cause trouble.

There will be no peace at Ibrox when cunts like him are on the payroll.

Sorry, but that looks like 2+2=5.  I can't read anywhere that suggests Martin is running about reporting people.  And anyway, if it's the club's stated desire to eradicate the "sectarian" singing/chanting that has previously seen the club censured at home and abroad I'm not sure what you want the head of security to be doing, I certainly wouldn't want them to be making policy decisions like that then hiding from them!  Especially when there's been arrests or SPL investigations as a result!

[Bears r us 30,810]

21 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

I'd hope that's more an unfortunate coincidence than a concious decision.

I hope you are correct, but it shows that the whole episode has been dealt with in a manner that our fans were treated badly. 

This is going a bit off topic but I cannot understand why there has not been at least 20 Hivs fans arrested to every Rangers 1 considering the numbers on the day. All very strange IMO.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

My point.  It was a mistake because it was said in the heat of the moment...often not the best time to speak!  Painted themselves into a corner leaving themselves with nowhere to go.  It was obvious (in my mind anyway) that as soon as our fans entered the pitch there would be questions asked and likely consequences for some too.  

Youre ignoring the fact that the Club didnt have to ban anyone.

They have no legal obligation to do so (I feel like a broken record here)

If the courts ban them theyre not going to be there anyway, and a court ban is a much stricter ban than a Club ban

If the court doesnt ban them then the Club should also see no reason to

If they do see a reason to then the reason should be better than "you were accused of commiting an offence" because if thats a good enough reason then literally anyone could walk up to the plod and accuse another fan of something and by precedent that person should be banned.

Once again, the Club has NO legal obligation to ban any supporters, this is a choice that the board made for God knows what reason.

Who are they trying to impress? What is their logic here? They knew if this got out it would cause controversy, I was going to say division but the only division i see is from trolls on here, almost everyone Ive spoke to personally thinks this is boggin. They should have known this would turn people against THEM and not each other, so why have they cut off their own nose to spite their face?

They know from experience that this support can remove a board if need be. But to be honest I think they believe theyve done a good enough job of convincing people that they are the saviours that they could literally set Ibrox ablaze and some Bears would dance round the fire chanting Kings name. Depending on the reaction from C1872 and the other groups its yet to be seen if thats the case but it wouldnt surprise me.

One again. They didnt need to do this, no one forced them to, they made a choice. Dont know why, but it had better be a good enough reason or I hope the majority of the support will be angry as I am over this. Its one thing to say "fuck them" when its some Bear youve never seen or heard of getting banned, but what happens when its your mate who youve went to games with for years? Or what if one day its you? You can get banned for being accused of singing a sectarian song at a game, thats exactly what happened to me. The courts are handing out bans left right an centre the last thing we need is the Board (was going to say Club but these morons dont represent the Club for me) jumping on the bandwagon of banning people before theyre convicted of a single thing.

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

17 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

I really don't know!  Do you?  Does anyone?  It could be that certain individuals have been arrested, other evidence has been presented that's made Rangers go "ah, right then", but nobody really knows do they (other than the board).

I've asked similar questions since the first post from KAI the other day.  There's too little evidence around to form a definitive appraisal of what's actually happened/happening here.  I've seen many so called reasons for the actions, including (and variations thereof) that "the board are scummy bastards", "deliberately ripping the fans off", "turning their back on fans just protecting their own", "using it to bargain for positions on SPFL boards"...amongst many others.  

I've dipped in and out of this thread so I may have missed stuff, but from what I've read nobody knows how many fans we're talking about or the particular circumstances that have resulted in the letters to affected individuals.  I've offered up opinion contrary to the populist anti-board stuff because of that (i.e. people really don't know) but as usual if you're not in agreement there's usual finger jabbing.  The only mitigation I've seen for one of the individuals saying "it wasn't me".  Fair enough, but it would be difficult to bring charges without evidence of some sort.

To summarise, there's a lot of speculation and finger pointing without any of us being in possession of the full facts, and Rangers haven't helped themselves by being reactionary in the first place and too blunt in the letters.  But I'll hold my more moderate views until I know more of the facts.

They could take all the guess work out of any of this and just leave it to the courts before doing anything. 

[Guest]

"However, this does not mean we will be passive. We will take all steps to protect our Club and supporters if either is damaged by journalists, their newspapers, or broadcasters.

The recent story that appeared in the Daily Record after the Scottish Cup final lacked balance and quite ridiculously stated that Rangers fans prevented the police from getting into Hampden to control the crowd disorder started by Hibernian’s fans."

 

Thats from DKs deeply insightful response to our questions a few weeks back, you'll remember how enlightening they were. Load of pish, he must have known while writing this what their plan of action was.

[Ozblue 4,331]

7 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

Sorry, but that looks like 2+2=5.  I can't read anywhere that suggests Martin is running about reporting people.  And anyway, if it's the club's stated desire to eradicate the "sectarian" singing/chanting that has previously seen the club censured at home and abroad I'm not sure what you want the head of security to be doing, I certainly wouldn't want them to be making policy decisions like that then hiding from them!  Especially when there's been arrests or SPL investigations as a result!

It in no way is 2+2=5. That particular post was in answer to a comment by minstral confirming the banning letter was indeed sent by the same person who snitched on our fans at Berwick and at Ibrox.

If you think David Martin isn't in cahoots with Police Scotland then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

5 minutes ago, Ozblue said:

It in no way is 2+2=5. That particular post was in answer to a comment by minstral confirming the banning letter was indeed sent by the same person who snitched on our fans at Berwick and at Ibrox.

If you think David Martin isn't in cahoots with Police Scotland then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Once a copper always a copper, anyone who thinks he isn't on the side of the police's view of the cup final is nuts. 

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

1 minute ago, Willis said:

Youre ignoring the fact that the Club didnt have to ban anyone.

They have no legal obligation to (I feel like a broken record here) They don't need one!!!!

If the courts ban them theyre not going to be there anyway, and a court ban is a much stricter ban than a Club ban

If the court doesnt ban them then the Club should also see no reason to Why not?  It's like being banned from the pub for being a prick.  You don't need to go to court for that.

If they do see a reason to then the reason should be better than "you were accused of commiting an offence" because if thats a good enough reason then literally anyone could walk up to the plod and accuse another fan of something and by precedent that person should be banned.  That's true...but my contention has always been that no-one knows the reasons do we?  We can speculate and offer counter speculation but the bottom line is we don't know unless the board tell us.

Once again, the Club has NO legal obligation to ban any supporters, this is a choice that the board made for God knows what reason.  They don't need one!  

Who are they trying to impress? What is their logic here? They knew if this got out it would cause controversy, I was going to say division but the only division i see is from trolls on here, almost everyone Ive spoke to personally thinks this is boggin. They should have known this would turn people against THEM and not each other, so why have they cut off their own nose to spite their face?  Well, you can look at from different angles.  Trolls is a bit unfair, there are some of us prepared to give benefit of the doubt until facts are known.  I'd be surprised if Rangers simply, randomly, banned people because they were arrested without knowing the circumstances of the arrest (charges and evidence) considering the statement they foolishly issued in the immediate aftermath.

They know from experience that this support can remove a board if need be. But to be honest I think they believe theyve done a good enough job of convincing people that they are the saviours that they could literally set Ibrox ablaze and some Bears would dance round the fire chanting Kings name. Depending on the reaction from C1872 and the other groups its yet to be seen if thats the case but it wouldnt surprise me.  This board have done far more good than bad in my mind.  This particular issue though has been handled rather clumsily and needs a little more clarity if nothing else to at least explain the rational.

One again. They didnt need to do this, no one forced them to, they made a choice. Dont know why, but it had better be a good enough reason or I hope the majority of the support will be angry as I am over this. Its one thing to say "fuck them" when its some Bear youve never seen or heard of getting banned, but what happens when its your mate who youve went to games with for years? Or what if one day its you? You can get banned for being accused of singing a sectarian song at a game, thats exactly what happened to me. The courts are handing out bans left right an centre the last thing we need is the Board (was going to say Club but these morons dont represent the Club for me) jumping on the bandwagon of banning people before theyre convicted of a single thing.

I'm not angry with the board, but I do think they need to be more open with their thinking behind this.  They've brought more positives to the club in the last 18 months than we've had in years and it's lifted massive weights from most of us.  Not everyone will be happy with everything, some will be disappointed with elements of the work.  Like I said, I'm happy with most of the work being done, but on this issue, given the potential "division", clarity needs to be forthcoming.

 

[minstral 5,375]

18 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

Sorry, but that looks like 2+2=5.  I can't read anywhere that suggests Martin is running about reporting people.  And anyway, if it's the club's stated desire to eradicate the "sectarian" singing/chanting that has previously seen the club censured at home and abroad I'm not sure what you want the head of security to be doing, I certainly wouldn't want them to be making policy decisions like that then hiding from them!  Especially when there's been arrests or SPL investigations as a result!

Every head of security at Ibrox over the years have all been clunts. They should remember that our fans are the club, and without them, there would be no club.

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

9 minutes ago, Ozblue said:

It in no way is 2+2=5. That particular post was in answer to a comment by minstral confirming the banning letter was indeed sent by the same person who snitched on our fans at Berwick and at Ibrox.

If you think David Martin isn't in cahoots with Police Scotland then you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Snitched?  Really?  How so?  Was he sitting beside the police officer at Berwick pointing at people and saying "him", "him" and "her"??  Or sitting at Rugby Park, heard something and phoned the SPFL and told them to investigate us??

The reason he's the guy sending out the letters is that it's his duty, as the Head of Safety and Security, to do so.  And like any such duty holder for any organisation, they'll be the first point of contact for police authorities when dealing with the club. 

[Ozblue 4,331]

6 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said:

Once a copper always a copper, anyone who thinks he isn't on the side of the police's view of the cup final is nuts. 

Exactly right,CB. I have a cousin who is extremely high up the ladder in Police Scotland and he is a copper 24/7. To make it worse, he is a staunch bead rattler and he doesn't hide the fact these Club security guys work hand in hand with their ex-employers.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

there are some of us prepared to give benefit of the doubt until facts are known

Well its a god damned pity that the board doesnt feel the same way.

You say give the benefit of the doubt until facts are known then want people banned before theyre convicted of any wrong doing. Disgraceful.

What the fuck has happened to our support folk like you make me sick. I bet you wouldnt stand at the game (if you were even at the game) while the hibs were assaulting our players saying "i hope the bears who react to this get banned" but youre happy to say it on here, gives me the absolute boak.

[minstral 5,375]

2 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

Snitched?  Really?  How so?  Was he sitting beside the police officer at Berwick pointing at people and saying "him", "him" and "her"??  Or sitting at Rugby Park, heard something and phoned the SPFL and told them to investigate us??

The reason he's the guy sending out the letters is that it's his duty, as the Head of Safety and Security, to do so.  And like any such duty holder for any organisation, they'll be the first point of contact for police authorities when dealing with the club. 

All the twat done was talk to the police during the game at Berwick. He ia a snake who should be removed from our club.

[Ozblue 4,331]

9 minutes ago, minstral said:

Every head of security at Ibrox over the years have all been clunts. They should remember that our fans are the club, and without them, there would be no club.

Yea minstral; before David Martin it was Kenny Scott at Ibrox and among other positions he held was match commander at the Tattydome. Actually Kenny Scott was head hunted by Moonbeams Murray back in 2007 (I think) to "clean up our supporters image in the game"

[D'Artagnan 13,319]

46 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

I really don't know!  Do you?  Does anyone?  It could be that certain individuals have been arrested, other evidence has been presented that's made Rangers go "ah, right then", but nobody really knows do they (other than the board).

I've asked similar questions since the first post from KAI the other day.  There's too little evidence around to form a definitive appraisal of what's actually happened/happening here.  I've seen many so called reasons for the actions, including (and variations thereof) that "the board are scummy bastards", "deliberately ripping the fans off", "turning their back on fans just protecting their own", "using it to bargain for positions on SPFL boards"...amongst many others.  

I've dipped in and out of this thread so I may have missed stuff, but from what I've read nobody knows how many fans we're talking about or the particular circumstances that have resulted in the letters to affected individuals.  I've offered up opinion contrary to the populist anti-board stuff because of that (i.e. people really don't know) but as usual if you're not in agreement there's usual finger jabbing.  The only mitigation I've seen for one of the individuals saying "it wasn't me".  Fair enough, but it would be difficult to bring charges without evidence of some sort.

To summarise, there's a lot of speculation and finger pointing without any of us being in possession of the full facts, and Rangers haven't helped themselves by being reactionary in the first place and too blunt in the letters.  But I'll hold my more moderate views until I know more of the facts.

Charges have been brought and bears are awaiting trial or sentencing depending on the pleas they have tendered.

What we do know is that at least 2 bears arrested in connection with the cup final have been banned indefinitely & been subject to their ST's being forfeited without financial recompense - prior to any decisions of the court.

Hence why I asked if this was general default position

[Ozblue 4,331]

7 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

Snitched?  Really?  How so?  Was he sitting beside the police officer at Berwick pointing at people and saying "him", "him" and "her"??  Or sitting at Rugby Park, heard something and phoned the SPFL and told them to investigate us??

The reason he's the guy sending out the letters is that it's his duty, as the Head of Safety and Security, to do so.  And like any such duty holder for any organisation, they'll be the first point of contact for police authorities when dealing with the club. 

I have it on good authority that he was both  in phone contact and personal contact with the Berwick plods during the game (which is understandable) so to me he's a fucking snitch.

And as for the underlined part, the game was at Ibrox, so if he was sitting at Rugby Park he must have good fucking hearing.

Now! let's cut to the chase here...Do you agree the club handled this correctly, or not?

[Courtyard Bear 41,357]

13 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

Snitched?  Really?  How so?  Was he sitting beside the police officer at Berwick pointing at people and saying "him", "him" and "her"??  Or sitting at Rugby Park, heard something and phoned the SPFL and told them to investigate us??

The reason he's the guy sending out the letters is that it's his duty, as the Head of Safety and Security, to do so.  And like any such duty holder for any organisation, they'll be the first point of contact for police authorities when dealing with the club. 

Do you want to enlighten us what bit of singing a song effects safety or security. 

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

3 minutes ago, Willis said:

Well its a god damned pity that the board doesnt feel the same way.

You say give the benefit of the doubt until facts are known then want people banned before theyre convicted of any wrong doing. Disgraceful. Emmmm, where did I say that?  I've said I won't be jumping to conclusions until the board can explain the action.  I've offered up an opinion as to why the board may have acted in the way they have rather than react like a hysterical wean getting his favourite toy taken off him without knowing those facts. 

What the fuck has happened to our support folk like you make me sick. I bet you wouldnt stand at the game (if you were even at the game) while the hibs were assaulting our players saying "i hope the bears who react to this get banned" but youre happy to say it on here, gives me the absolute boak.  You're making things up.  I don't believe there's any one bear who would have said that at all, and I certainly haven't!!!  What I have said is that I don't know the facts, and neither do you.  

But what is an irrefutable fact is, if you're on the pitch, throwing punches (either in defence or attack) then you run the risk of being arrested and charged and everything that follows.  That's not taking sides...that's not blaming anyone...that's just a plain old fact!!  

I'll qualify that AGAIN.  We're all guessing!! You're guessing, I'm guessing.  We might have a grain of truth amongst us even, you or I may be totally wrong but none of us know all the facts.  Unless it turns out to be a blanket ban on all those arrested (another thing I don't yet know) then my opinion is there's more than meets the eye with the individuals being singled out. 

 

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

21 minutes ago, minstral said:

All the twat done was talk to the police during the game at Berwick. He ia a snake who should be removed from our club.

He's head of security.  It's his job to liaise with Police, particularly during matches.  It would be the same for the guy who replaces him.

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

11 minutes ago, Courtyard Bear said:

Do you want to enlighten us what bit of singing a song effects safety or security. 

None, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't agree with the law that made it illegal and would repeal it tomorrow so we can all blissfully insult each other 

But the club has to comply with the law and the rules of the governing body that runs the competitions we play in.

[minstral 5,375]

4 minutes ago, coopsleftboot said:

He's head of security.  It's his job to liaise with Police, particularly during matches.  It would be the same for the guy who replaces him.

Can you not mind the other security man Hood who tried to get Jock Wallace thrown out of Ibrox many years ago.  They are all power mad who think they are bigger than our club.

[coopsleftboot 5,512]

Just now, minstral said:

Can you not mind the other security man Hood who tried to get Jock Wallace thrown out of Ibrox many years ago.  They are all power mad who think they are bigger than our club.

Goes with the territory, a necessary evil for most organisations or enterprises.  

Unfortunately for us, there's some pishy laws and regulations we have to be seen to comply with and it'll be his job is to ensure we do.

[Smile 26,610]

1 hour ago, coopsleftboot said:

I really don't know!  Do you?  Does anyone?  It could be that certain individuals have been arrested, other evidence has been presented that's made Rangers go "ah, right then", but nobody really knows do they (other than the board).

I've asked similar questions since the first post from KAI the other day.  There's too little evidence around to form a definitive appraisal of what's actually happened/happening here.  I've seen many so called reasons for the actions, including (and variations thereof) that "the board are scummy bastards", "deliberately ripping the fans off", "turning their back on fans just protecting their own", "using it to bargain for positions on SPFL boards"...amongst many others.  

I've dipped in and out of this thread so I may have missed stuff, but from what I've read nobody knows how many fans we're talking about or the particular circumstances that have resulted in the letters to affected individuals.  I've offered up opinion contrary to the populist anti-board stuff because of that (i.e. people really don't know) but as usual if you're not in agreement there's usual finger jabbing.  The only mitigation I've seen for one of the individuals saying "it wasn't me".  Fair enough, but it would be difficult to bring charges without evidence of some sort.

To summarise, there's a lot of speculation and finger pointing without any of us being in possession of the full facts, and Rangers haven't helped themselves by being reactionary in the first place and too blunt in the letters.  But I'll hold my more moderate views until I know more of the facts.

 

2

I think you will find there are many not happy with this who also support the board 100%. it's an attack on the ordinary supporter.