A few points in response to The Chairman's response to 'We Deserve Better'

[gerbilly 7]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

David Edgar I assume?

I see you only a have a few posts on this board… call me cynical (and in your case I’m entitled to be) but why wait until now to come onto this board with your usual agenda-driven nonsense?

Could it be that you somehow need our patronage? And anyway, what‘s wrong with cozying up to the Murray haters on follow follow these days?

What a muppet coming out with this nonsense you seem to have a lot of hatred for Rangers supporters.

[fibbertenor 0]

David Edgar is nuthin' more than a trouble maker.

Murray has put alot into the club and because he's made mistakes Edgar and his cronies want him hung drawn and quartered - Well I say give the man some space to sort things out.

[fibbertenor 0]

Typical nonsense comment from the RST - They speak for the fans yet the opinions they rant are in no where near what the majority of the fans feel.

[*Manticore* 1,893]

David Edgar is nuthin' more than a trouble maker.

Murray has put alot into the club and because he's made mistakes Edgar and his cronies want him hung drawn and quartered - Well I say give the man some space to sort things out.

Hi David, or is it Martin?

[Youllneverwinaway 0]

David Edgar is nuthin' more than a trouble maker.

Murray has put alot into the club and because he's made mistakes Edgar and his cronies want him hung drawn and quartered - Well I say give the man some space to sort things out.

All right Nor.

[gerbilly 7]

David Edgar is nuthin' more than a trouble maker.

Murray has put alot into the club and because he's made mistakes Edgar and his cronies want him hung drawn and quartered - Well I say give the man some space to sort things out.

I say you attend school "nothing" is the correct spelling.

Murray inherited a well run club under David Holmes with our main competitors starting to crack up, within 8 years he nearly bankrupted us, since then they have dominated the last 8 years with signs showing things will get worse.

Yet you criticise David Edgar instead of Murray, unbelievable.

[cooperonthewing 0]

Typical nonsense comment from the RST - They speak for the fans yet the opinions they rant are in no where near what the majority of the fans feel.

So we don't deserve better then?

[*Manticore* 1,893]

Typical nonsense comment from the RST - They speak for the fans yet the opinions they rant are in no where near what the majority of the fans feel.

Bollocks - they speak for their members.

[bluesnaw 0]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

David Edgar I assume?

I see you only a have a few posts on this board… call me cynical (and in your case I’m entitled to be) but why wait until now to come onto this board with your usual agenda-driven nonsense?

Could it be that you somehow need our patronage? And anyway, what‘s wrong with cozying up to the Murray haters on follow follow these days?

What a muppet coming out with this nonsense you seem to have a lot of hatred for Rangers supporters.

So I’m cynical about David Edgar and I’m a muppet with a hatred for Rangers‘ supporters? You obviously don’t know the difference between shit and the brown, smelly stuff that comes out your arse!

It’s called having an opinion, and being able to think for myself . I’ve been on this planet long enough to sniff out the likes of Edgar and his ilk without having to think too hard. If you need somebody to point you in the right direction and tell you what to think… fine. Only leave those of us old enough, and long enough in the tooth to spot a chancer when we see one to our own opinions.

[1690 Posts 71]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

I can't believe it's not better!

The trust had mega resignations recently, if you can't run a football fan club successfully, what makes you think you're qualified to lecture on the running of a football club?

On the transfer front. The club will accept the first offer going for any player. Makes perfect sense to me if you are in need of money in the short term. You cannot decide who makes an offer for whom so you can either accept the first bid or gamble that there may be other bids for other players. Do you want your chairman gambling?

No. 3 He's right! :craphead2:

No 2. You offer what you believe to be practical solutions. If they were so practical and the answer to all our problems why on earth would Murray not implement them? Answers on a postage stamp please.

What experience of running a football club do you bring to the table in order for you to insist your suggestions are all practical?

No 1. He's probably looked at them and since he's a more qualified businessman and in possession of more facts than the entire membership of the RST and in fact the whole supporter base, thought they're not real solutions.

It's piss easy to sit and say 'this is shit and I know why' when you don't have the responsibility to put measures into effect and don't know the full situation you're commenting on.

No Rangers fan is happy at being in second place, we never have been. There's a financial aspect to our current problems that is relatively, in historical terms, new and I've no doubt Murray has made mistakes, the same as every chairman.

IMO, we're handing the opposition further sticks to beat us with and more material to laugh at.

[Youllneverwinaway 0]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

The trust had mega resignations recently, if you can't run a football fan club successfully, what makes you think you're qualified to lecture on the running of a football club?

:biggrin:

[minstral 5,375]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

David Edgar I assume?

I see you only a have a few posts on this board… call me cynical (and in your case I’m entitled to be) but why wait until now to come onto this board with your usual agenda-driven nonsense?

Could it be that you somehow need our patronage? And anyway, what‘s wrong with cozying up to the Murray haters on follow follow these days?

What a muppet coming out with this nonsense you seem to have a lot of hatred for Rangers supporters.

So I’m cynical about David Edgar and I’m a muppet with a hatred for Rangers‘ supporters? You obviously don’t know the difference between shit and the brown, smelly stuff that comes out your arse!

It’s called having an opinion, and being able to think for myself . I’ve been on this planet long enough to sniff out the likes of Edgar and his ilk without having to think too hard. If you need somebody to point you in the right direction and tell you what to think… fine. Only leave those of us old enough, and long enough in the tooth to spot a chancer when we see one to our own opinions.

the only chancer is murray.

[Friedmarsbar 1]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

David Edgar I assume?

I see you only a have a few posts on this board… call me cynical (and in your case I’m entitled to be) but why wait until now to come onto this board with your usual agenda-driven nonsense?

Could it be that you somehow need our patronage? And anyway, what‘s wrong with cozying up to the Murray haters on follow follow these days?

What a muppet coming out with this nonsense you seem to have a lot of hatred for Rangers supporters.

So I’m cynical about David Edgar and I’m a muppet with a hatred for Rangers‘ supporters? You obviously don’t know the difference between shit and the brown, smelly stuff that comes out your arse!

It’s called having an opinion, and being able to think for myself . I’ve been on this planet long enough to sniff out the likes of Edgar and his ilk without having to think too hard. If you need somebody to point you in the right direction and tell you what to think… fine. Only leave those of us old enough, and long enough in the tooth to spot a chancer when we see one to our own opinions.

I address this to you, Mr Edgar

For you, as a supporter, as a representative of the Trust, to call David Murray a charlatan on national radio was a disgrace.

You really need to have a look at yourself and your ever increasing rants speaking to a national audience.

You confirm to me that the recent change in the Trust Executive constitutes an alarming shift to the right and does nothing for the image of Rangers.

[bluesnaw 0]

the only chancer is murray.

Why am I not surprised by that response?

[gerbilly 7]

I address this to you, Mr Edgar

For you, as a supporter, as a representative of the Trust, to call David Murray a charlatan on national radio was a disgrace.

You really need to have a look at yourself and your ever increasing rants speaking to a national audience.

You confirm to me that the recent change in the Trust Executive constitutes an alarming shift to the right and does nothing for the image of Rangers.

How about Liar, Megalomaniac, egotist, despot, tyrant as well as charlatan in my opinion he is all of them too, The Trust hasnt went far enough they should attack Murray and campaign for him to go as soon as.

Dont try and come over all uber fan mate I have been attending games since 1972.

[1690 Posts 71]

David, I have a mixed views on the we deserve better campaign, however the one i feel most strongly about is the lack of support and backing from the higharcy of the club i.e the TFS and TBB saga. It seems everywhere there is someone having a pop at rangers or its fans, may it be TV or radio and not a lot is getting said in our defence.

On the football side i agree that poor signings have been made and money has been wasted, however at a time where every industry is suffering from the current economic climate, i think being safe money wise is a sensible move. If we can go on a good run in the next month or so then I am confident of a championship win as celtic are in no great shape.

I really want us to be safe with our money. I just believe that the Chairman (Or CE) should make every penny a prisoner.

Non-football staff should never question a decision by the football people with regards to WHICH player they should sign, but they should always question WHY.

So for example, when Walter asked to sign three strikers in the summer when we already had six, the CE should step in and say 'no, you have six, until you move one or two on, you can't have another three.'

I hate to say it, but it's the Fergus McCann model. And it works.

Do you have information that this did not happen? Perhaps it was a case of strike while the iron is hot. Maybe other clubs were hovering. Maybe we believed we were about to sell one, two or three of our own strikers. Without all the relevant information, I'm sure you'll agree, comments and statements like that for example can look uninformed.

Yeah, ultimately Rangers can be criticised for having 9 strikers on their books all at one time but, and it's a big butt ( a bit like my own recently!), it's with the benefit of hindsight that fans criticise and that, for me, reduces our argument somewhat.

Perhaps the chairman did discuss this with Smith and Smith persuaded the chairman it was the correct route to go down.

We do not know if we were in talks at that time with other clubs interested in our strikers. Perhaps a club or two pulled out of talks. Perhaps a player didn't fancy a move. It's all speculation at the end of the day and generally, football chairmen don't keep fans updated with every twist and turn in the life of a club.

Unless we have every single fact from that time, we're all in speculation land and we must recognise this before embarking on a campaign that only brings more negative headlines on a club that doesn't have it's troubles to seek.

The situation at Rangers is not permanent, even if this chairman is here for the long term imo. I've seen worse as a Rangers fan and seen myself and my club come through it. I'd like to see us come through it with a bit more stoicism and dignity but if other people want to panic, that's for them.

[1690 Posts 71]

How about Liar, Megalomaniac, egotist, despot, tyrant as well as charlatan in my opinion he is all of them too, The Trust hasnt went far enough they should attack Murray and campaign for him to go as soon as.

Dont try and come over all uber fan mate I have been attending games since 1972.

Then you've witnessed worse times, yes?

Did you conduct yourself in the same manner during said times, yes?

You obviously witnessed us coming out of those times and onto better times, yes?

Do you think this kind of behaviour/abuse reflects well on Rangers fans and the club in general?

[Friedmarsbar 1]

Dont try and come over all uber fan mate I have been attending games since 1972

my first was 1956, son??????????????????????????

[brissyger 8]

1. The Chairman has failed to react substantitively to any of the points raised, and instead chosen to ignore legitimate concerns of paying customers.

2. The Chairman has said the fans groups 'offer no solutions'. We have offered practical advice at every meeting we have had over a number of years. That the Chairman and Chief executive chose to ignore most of that advice is down to them, but it is simply misleading to claim they were never offered it.

3. He says people who are members of fans groups and populate websites are 'not exactly Captains of Industry'. That's a rather sneering put-down, by definition, of everybody who reads this post.

4. He says the Trust think they 'know more about tactics than Walter Smith.' We don't. Not only have we never said that, we have said several times that the football people at the club know far more about football than we do. You'd have to ask the Chairman why he chose to make such a patently untrue assertion.

5. He accuses the trust of 'mischief-making'. If he'd like to point out anything in the 17 issues raised which is incorrect, we'll happily rescind it.

6. He says the Trust is an extremely small band of people. 5,000 members isn't a full Ibrox, but I'd counter it's a fair representation of support - certainly a big enough customer base to avoid insulting and ignoring.

7. He says 'real fans' know he's doing a good job. Define a 'real' fan to us.

8. His overall assertion is that the RST is intent on de-stabilising the team. We'd simply like to point out that it isn't us sanctioning the transfer of our top goalscorer halfway through the season.

Thank you for your time.

We deserve better.

You have a lot of "He says" within this post, but could you please post actual quotes, and the full quotes so a clear objective view could be made?

Rangers chairman's verdict on his most vocal critics

SIR DAVID MURRAY today hit back over Rangers fans' mounting criticism of his running of the club.

The Ibrox chairman has come under fire after he announced the club would be forced to cash in on one of their leading stars during this current transfer window to balance the books.

Murray came out fighting after a We Deserve Better' campaign was launched by supporters' groups.

That followed a banner which was displayed in the away end at St Johnstone on Tuesday night which called for him to go.

Murray now finds himself mired in the biggest crisis of his tenure at the club - just a couple of months after he celebrated his 20th anniversary at the helm.

The Gers owner blasted the supporters seeking to express disapproval of the club's leadership, telling disgruntled fans to get used to "reality".

He said: "The people who are moaning and making most of the noise are not exactly captains of industry. They don't have vast experience in business. I don't see any solutions being put forward by them."

It was last week's decision to agree to sell leading goalscorer Kris Boyd to Birmingham City in a £3.8m deal that has tipped some fans over the edge.

Although Boyd failed to agree personal terms with the Coca-Cola Championship side, Murray has made it clear one of Walter Smith's top players will have to be offloaded before the end of the month as the financial fall-out caused by their disastrous Euro exit in Kaunas back in August comes home to roost.

That means Boyd, captain Barry Ferguson, Allan McGregor and Madjid Bougherra could all move on if bids are tabled by interested clubs in England.

Murray, however, has dismissed the credibility of those behind the protest campaign. And he insists he remains the best-equipped individual to lead Rangers to better fortune on and off the pitch.

"I can understand the frustration of the fans, but I would ask them to look at the reality of the situation," Murray said.

"When I sit down and review the economic situation of my business, the football side of it cannot be treated in isolation.

"We have to reduce costs at Rangers and that is why, when we received a good offer for Kris Boyd, we accepted it.

"The debate goes on as to whether he is a good, bad or indifferent player, or whether he would win the club the title, but the fact is most clubs would accept a reasonable offer for their players at the moment.

"That is the reality, whether you like David Murray or not. Whether it is me, Stewart Milne, John Boyle, Tom Farmer or Dermot Desmond, these are the people who are the financial backbone holding clubs together.

"There is a hysteria out there, driven by people who spend most of their time on websites or trying to get on radio programmes. They go on about mistakes which have been made, but I'm tired of admitting mistakes."

Murray once again reiterated his willingness to sell Rangers and let someone else take over the reins if someone approaches him who can prove they are in a position to take the club forward.

By attending McDiarmid Park on Tuesday night to watch his team defeat St Johnstone 2-0 in the Scottish Cup, the chairman proved he won't hide during a difficult time for the club.

He said: "I have been doing this for 20 years now and I think I have a better hand on the tiller than anyone else could at the moment.

"I would be delighted to go tomorrow as long as I could genuinely believe there was a suit-able alternative for Rangers.

"But please do not doubt my endeavour to make Rangers successful. There is the David Murray must go' chorus. But I will be here until there is a viable alternative."

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/displa...of_industry.php

In bold are actual quotes.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/displa..._going_bust.php

Another interesting article on the financial situation.

And by the way I'm still a member of the RST, but I don't remember being asked for views or warned about what might be happening, and don't give me the line about we're representing the trust, you can make representation if you're not happy about an incident or whoever is in charge, it's a wee bit too late if it's already done!

Sorry PIB, but it was a decision taken by the elected board and we stand by it. It would be impractical to canvass the opinion of every member on everything we do. Should you be unhappy with what the Board do then there are avenues open to you - you can vote us out, resign your membership or simply choose not to back the campaign.

Obviously we hope you don't do any of these!

How can you claim to have the backing of the 5000 members of the RST in this matter then if you haven't asked for their opinion. Fair enough they elected you but it doesn't mean they agree with everything.

[1690 Posts 71]

Brissy-How can you claim to have the backing of the 5000 members of the RST in this matter then if you haven't asked for their opinion. Fair enough they elected you but it doesn't mean they agree with everything.

Spot on. Fair enough you can't canvas every member on every decision but one as important and high profile as this should have the backing of a majority of the trust. Smacks of a power trip.

[brissybear 50]

I find it pathetic this argument about dignity and folk patronisisngly preaching about how we should conduct ourselves.

The fact of the matter is, yes, we had bad times in the past, but times were diffrent.

There wasnt the massive financial gulf between teams.

Folk have to wake up big time and realsie that if the mhanks get a bit more ambitious they can leave us for dead for a very, very, very long time.

Its money taht dictates who stays on top and by coming second best each year we are falling further nad further behind.

the mhanks could become like Lyon and dominate our league for years. If it wasnt for those 2 under big red, what would they be on?

get a fecking grip, this is a serious as it gets. We are sleepwalking into this, ive said it for years now.

[1690 Posts 71]

I find it pathetic this argument about dignity and folk patronisisngly preaching about how we should conduct ourselves.

The fact of the matter is, yes, we had bad times in the past, but times were diffrent.

There wasnt the massive financial gulf between teams.

Folk have to wake up big time and realsie that if the mhanks get a bit more ambitious they can leave us for dead for a very, very, very long time.

Its money taht dictates who stays on top and by coming second best each year we are falling further nad further behind.

the mhanks could become like Lyon and dominate our league for years. If it wasnt for those 2 under big red, what would they be on?

get a fecking grip, this is a serious as it gets. We are sleepwalking into this, ive said it for years now.

We were getting pumped by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, do you think that's a better situation than now? We were financially much wealthier than those clubs back then but did it help? Fact is things go in cycles, look throughout our history and you'll see, and we're at the bottom of one right now. We wont remain there if some long term measure are implemented and fans accept the short term pain. We haven't accepted that pain over the last few years, we've demanded and demanded and what do we get? Short termism employing Smith and giving him money we don't have. Murray did that for one reason, for you.

Me? I think he'd have been better off building slowly but suspect most wouldn't accept that.

[brissybear 50]

I find it pathetic this argument about dignity and folk patronisisngly preaching about how we should conduct ourselves.

The fact of the matter is, yes, we had bad times in the past, but times were diffrent.

There wasnt the massive financial gulf between teams.

Folk have to wake up big time and realsie that if the mhanks get a bit more ambitious they can leave us for dead for a very, very, very long time.

Its money taht dictates who stays on top and by coming second best each year we are falling further nad further behind.

the mhanks could become like Lyon and dominate our league for years. If it wasnt for those 2 under big red, what would they be on?

get a fecking grip, this is a serious as it gets. We are sleepwalking into this, ive said it for years now.

We were getting pumped by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, do you think that's a better situation than now? We were financially much wealthier than those clubs back then but did it help? Fact is things go in cycles, look throughout our history and you'll see, and we're at the bottom of one right now. We wont remain there if some long term measure are implemented and fans accept the short term pain. We haven't accepted that pain over the last few years, we've demanded and demanded and what do we get? Short termism employing Smith and giving him money we don't have. Murray did that for one reason, for you.

Me? I think he'd have been better off building slowly but suspect most wouldn't accept that.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, you are ommitting one crucial factor in your argument that makes this era so dangerous for us.

The CL and the money that comes with it. In the past no-one was going to dissapear over the horizon. Thats the problem now, the mhanks could potentially.

How did we claw it back in the 80's? MONEY. Thats how.

I beleive in 5 to 10 years the clubs that constatntly compete in the CL will break way and form some kind of invitation league that represents European football.

I genuinly fear we wont be invited and have been seen as the weaker of the 2 for a long time now.

A change of fortunes is needed sooner rather than later.

[1690 Posts 71]

I find it pathetic this argument about dignity and folk patronisisngly preaching about how we should conduct ourselves.

The fact of the matter is, yes, we had bad times in the past, but times were diffrent.

There wasnt the massive financial gulf between teams.

Folk have to wake up big time and realsie that if the mhanks get a bit more ambitious they can leave us for dead for a very, very, very long time.

Its money taht dictates who stays on top and by coming second best each year we are falling further nad further behind.

the mhanks could become like Lyon and dominate our league for years. If it wasnt for those 2 under big red, what would they be on?

get a fecking grip, this is a serious as it gets. We are sleepwalking into this, ive said it for years now.

We were getting pumped by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, do you think that's a better situation than now? We were financially much wealthier than those clubs back then but did it help? Fact is things go in cycles, look throughout our history and you'll see, and we're at the bottom of one right now. We wont remain there if some long term measure are implemented and fans accept the short term pain. We haven't accepted that pain over the last few years, we've demanded and demanded and what do we get? Short termism employing Smith and giving him money we don't have. Murray did that for one reason, for you.

Me? I think he'd have been better off building slowly but suspect most wouldn't accept that.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, you are ommitting one crucial factor in your argument that makes this era so dangerous for us.

The CL and the money that comes with it. In the past no-one was going to dissapear over the horizon. Thats the problem now, the mhanks could potentially.

How did we claw it back in the 80's? MONEY. Thats how.

I beleive in 5 to 10 years the clubs that constatntly compete in the CL will break way and form some kind of invitation league that represents European football.

I genuinly fear we wont be invited and have been seen as the weaker of the 2 for a long time now.

A change of fortunes is needed sooner rather than later.

I think fans are being a bit more afraid than they need to be based on one vital fact. Celtc will refuse to spend the kind of money that will bury us. Not like Murray tried to do with Advocaat. They're far too sensible and that imo gives us a chance to stop their run which in turn takes the heat off us a little to give us the time to get our house in order.

Just how good have they been over the last few years, honestly? IMO pretty average despite having a wage bill considerably higher than ours.

Last season they got really lucky and imo weren't considerably better than us. This season we've shot ourselves in the foot more often than not (I blame Smith and his selection policy) and I think there's a danger of us fans making our situation to be worse than it is while making celtc out to be far better than they really are.

[brissyger 8]

Money isn't everything. If Celtic start disappearing over the horizon then we need to start concentrating on other things like youth policy. We should be looking to be bringing through more young stars and doing our utmost to keep the likes of Fleck and Wilson. Murray Park could very well be the future of Rangers and I'd much rather foster local talent than bring in foreign has-beens for big bucks like we and Celtic continue to do.